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Author Topic: Advanced Comic Book Format  (Read 10139 times)

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Offline Whale

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:21:16 AM »
thanks for all the replies. I managed to create a Win32 executable for ACBF Viewer, so if you wanna try it you may get it from project main page (green Downloads section on the right side). There's a viewer and sample comic book to download. No need to install Python and all those libraries anymore (at least I think so - tried on 2 different computers with Windows XP installed)

@John C
No problem. I do it in first place for myself. I wanted to have such a comic book reader in Linux with all those capabilities. I'm writing it as a free software, so anyone can take it or leave it or even help with it. If nobody cares and I'll be the only one using it and creating comic books in ACBF that's OK ;-)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 04:15:58 AM by Whale »
Advanced Comic Book Format project - a file format for electronic comic books. Any suggestions and help appreciated.
ACBF Wiki

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 03:21:16 AM »

Offline John C

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 05:39:36 AM »
As far as "transitions" and such things go, keep in mind that there's the emerging audience of people on phones, small tablets, netbooks, or really any setup where the user doesn't want or can't afford an enormous screen.  While you can argue that you can always zoom in and scroll around from panel to panel, it's better to let the "publisher" encode the pane ordering into the comic, rather than spoil the reading experience making a bunch of guesswork swishing motions.

So don't think of it as "animation" (though it's happening, so it's probably worth supporting it) so much as having someone point out where to read next, which can be difficult when you're not looking at the whole page.

Offline bchat

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 10:39:42 AM »
I should clarify what I mean, because I think I might be giving the wrong impression.

Whale - I wish you luck and hope you accomplish your goals with this.  I hope you didn't take what I said as being against your project, because I'm not. 

I'm not against change, never have been, never will be.  I'm fully aware that there is always something "better" just around the corner, especially when it comes to computers & similar technology.  I also know that a lot of formats never take-off and some people get stuck with something they get limited enjoyment from (HD DVD or cassette players, for example) because the format is no longer supported.

ACBF sounds interesting, I just don't have any use for it.  As JVJ points out, I'm thinking mainly of how this relates to the files available on DCM because they're pretty much the only comic files I read on my computer.

John C - I understand what you're saying.  Yes, on a small screen it's better to have the page move in the proper order, but I"m not talking about "everyone else" with their cellphones, tablets, netbooks, hula hoops and thingamajigs.  I remember checking-out Marvel's comic reader back when they had free comics online (lousy selection from a company that's older than dirt, by the way), and I found it really annoying that my options were only "full page" (where you can't read anything) or "panel-to-panel" (which handled viewing full page images poorly).  It wasn't an enjoyable experience for me and I'm not sure I see what difference there will be between what Marvel's application did and what ACBF will do in regards to handling images.

Offline JVJ (RIP)

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 02:46:15 PM »
Me, too. Don't want wrong impressions, either.
I see LOTS of uses for all kinds of enhancements in newly created files and formats. As a realist, I see very little chance that anyone is going to go back into the thousands of DCM books and add any new features. Since adding artist or a collection list data would be of little value to me since I no longer collect new comics, this is one of those tools (like a smartphone) that simply wouldn't touch my life in any way.

But as I always try to make clear, I am NOT the target audience for such things, so my opinion represents a minority of one (ok, perhaps ten). I don't have a smartphone. I don't have a tablet. I don't even have a TV. NOBODY is targeting ME for anything. Please keep that in mind when I am commenting.

Peace, (and privacy) Jim (|:{>
Peace, Jim (|:{>

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Offline John C

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 04:39:59 PM »
Yeah, I see the disconnect, bchat.  I made the assumption that basic comic reader features would be carried over blindly.  I almost always read with "fit width" set, too, and wouldn't touch something without it.

But a project like this is less about the software (except for demonstration purposes) than making sure the format covers everything we'd want IF it became popular.

For example, GAC once had that crash where we lost all the file names; reconstructing that from inside the files themselves would've made life far easier.  By the same token, it'd be easy for any of us to automatically save files to the right location in our private libraries, whether we organize by publisher, year, artist, or whatever.  If we had unique ID numbers given to the books, we'd be able to distinguish the scanner's original from later-edited versions, automatically filter books we've been asked not to host, and so forth.  If it had the text of the comic, someone could copy it out and work with the transcript.  Holding the panel geometry would make it possible for the software to allow you to copy specific panels, too, which might be handy.

So there's a ton of potential in just the idea, regardless of the software.  The chicken-and-egg part, though, is without really good software (especially for the scanner, who would now have more work), nobody'll do the work, which basically means that it's the worst case scenario:  Functionally the same as CBR files, but incompatible.  That critical mass is difficult, especially with such a strongly-established format.

Offline bcholmes

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 06:11:22 PM »
The chicken-and-egg part, though, is without really good software (especially for the scanner, who would now have more work), nobody'll do the work, which basically means that it's the worst case scenario:  Functionally the same as CBR files, but incompatible.  That critical mass is difficult, especially with such a strongly-established format.

I totally grok that dilemma.  I think that the ideal would be to create additional information about the comics in a way that's compatible with the existing format.  I have two ideas about this, just off the top of my head.  

One goes back to my own introduction on this board.  The zip file format (used by cbz, but not cbr) has a mechanism for including limited amounts of metadata with an archive.  This site over here suggested some ways of populating interesting metadata in the zip notation.  If your reader ignores that metadata, fine.  Otherwise, hey! Cool extra stuff!  Obviously, that has the problem that it doesn't support cbz.  Well, that and the "who does the work" problem.

The other idea relates to using Exif data on the images themselves.  Increasingly, more and more tools are putting Exif data on your images -- my iPhone puts GPS and date information on my photos, for example.  I'm not sure what kind of size limitations there are for Exif data, but assuming that one can put a reasonable size of data on the image, it'd be a great way to store comic metadata.  Exif is supported on JPGs (and TIFFs), which is probably what the vast majority of the comics on this site have been scanned as.  Again: if your current reader doesn't understand the Exif data, no big deal.  The image is still viewable.  But, hey, there's still the "who does the work" problem.

I'm sure that there are other solutions.

BC
I make comics!
"In school, all the other kids laughed at me because I was just a brain in a jar."

Offline bcholmes

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 07:33:09 PM »
The other idea relates to using Exif data on the images themselves.

After looking at the Google for a bit, I think XMP is a better solution than Exif.

BCing you
I make comics!
"In school, all the other kids laughed at me because I was just a brain in a jar."

Offline Whale

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 03:13:22 AM »
@bcholmes:
I know about "comicbookinfo" and there's even "comicbook.xml" used sometimes, but meta-data there is quite brief at most, documentation almost non-existing, support by readers limited. Also comicbookinfo is only usable for CBZ files not for CBR/CBT/CB7 etc. CBR is proprietary ...
Expanding those comicbookinfo or comicbook.xml specifications would require more energy and doing many compromises (being careful about not breaking functionality in readers that may support it) than creating a new format.
On the other hand acbf file can be relatively easily created by conversion from existing formats. I plan to write such a convertor that will also support existing meta-data if present. Also backwards conversion from ACBF to CBZ (creating comicbookinfo in the process .. though some meta-data may be lost) is possible if someone writes such a convertor.
I plan to include in the format as much meta-data as possible, therefore asking people for suggestions if I missed something so far. Specifications are still improving. Final version 1.0 is planned for 1st March 2012, beta version on 1st February 2012, if everything goes well. Meanwhile, working on ACBF Viewer as well that will support all those possibilities ACBF provides.
Cheers
Robert
Advanced Comic Book Format project - a file format for electronic comic books. Any suggestions and help appreciated.
ACBF Wiki

Offline Whale

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2012, 01:57:28 PM »
If anyone interested, I just released version 1.0 beta of ACBF specifications along with complete XML schema as well as linux installer and Windows executable for ACBF Viewer version 0.4. Five sample comic books are also available to download. Everything can be found on project page in the green download section on the right side.

Some major improvements:
- ACBF Viewer is capable of loading CBZ files as well as ZIP files containing images
- comics can be read on "fit width" zoom level
- *.acbf file can be embedded into CBZ archive for improved compatibility with pure CBZ viewers (this is supported by the viewer as well)
- and many other minor fixes and improvements

Final version of specifications is planned for the beginning of next month. Any suggestions and spotted bugs are welcome. If you don't want to install the Viewer you may want to take a look at some screenshots perhaps :-)
Advanced Comic Book Format project - a file format for electronic comic books. Any suggestions and help appreciated.
ACBF Wiki

Offline vaillant

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »
Hi Whale,
while I can see the point of having artists' data et al. in a file, or tags, this all comes down to how we conceive onscreen reading.

Personally, I consider eBooks and generally onscreen reading as a mere tool, because if a book (or a comic book) is worthy it needs to be printed and to be read. Onscreen reading is not reading, for many reasons.

Comics in digital format are great to discover, and for consultation, but as I stumble upon something significant, I immediately see if I can purchase it. In fact, since I use a Mac (and since 1988) I have never kept a CBR or CBZ archive, and I always decompress the archives and keep the JPG files in a folder. As for the artists' credit, I find more convenient to research them, as the need arises, and transcribe them in a separate text file.
I enjoy having high-resolution scans when the comic is too expensive, or when I just wish to have a look at them for comparision, but I see books and eBooks as two specific different things, with specific different aims. There is not the kind of difference there was, say, between a manuscript or a hand-produced book and an inkunabula. An eBook, or an etext, is something which is helpful for study, but it has no physical form, so it can’t be compared to a physical product.

Said all this, I think it would be a worthy effort what you are doing, since CBR and CBZ actually aren’t proper formats at all. From what I get, are just variant formats of a compressed ZIP file. :)

Offline John C

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2012, 03:59:24 PM »
Personally, I consider eBooks and generally onscreen reading as a mere tool, because if a book (or a comic book) is worthy it needs to be printed and to be read. Onscreen reading is not reading, for many reasons.

Keep in mind that this isn't a permanent state.  Nobody (of relevance) believes that music can only be appreciated when played in person anymore, nor that it must be stored on an analog medium like tracks through vinyl, nor even that it needs to carry the full frequency range that humans can hear.  Heck, MP3 is demonstrably worse than any other way of listening to music, and it turns out that nobody actually cares.

Don't get me wrong, I love my smelly, heavy paper books, both the comic and text-based varieties.  But the only non-nostalgic difference between them is that my monitor is harder to stare at than paper...but there's a lot of smart people fixing that as we speak.

Offline Whale

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2012, 03:15:28 AM »
Hi,

thanks for the response vaillant.

Quote
As for the artists' credit, I find more convenient to research them, as the need arises, and transcribe them in a separate text file.

In the future I plan to implement a library that will be based on the meta-data present in the comic books. If that meta-data information is present it is then very easy to import those comic books into the library with just a mouse click. You can then view and browse the library, sort and filter the comics based on different criteria, search in the meta-data etc. Depends on how good the implementation and possibilities are. Export of the whole library to a text file can be implemented as well if someone prefers it that way. And, BTW, one of the meta-data tags is "DatabaseRef" which references some open comic book database (e.g. Grand Comics Database) and if program is smart enough it can update the information about particular comic book after querying that database when online.

Quote
I enjoy having high-resolution scans when the comic is too expensive, or when I just wish to have a look at them for comparision, but I see books and eBooks as two specific different things, with specific different aims. There is not the kind of difference there was, say, between a manuscript or a hand-produced book and an inkunabula. An eBook, or an etext, is something which is helpful for study, but it has no physical form, so it can’t be compared to a physical product.

Lots have already been written about e-books vs. paper books and everyone has some preferences for one or another. I personally prefer e-books, they are more practical (I can read them in bed at night without having to turn on the light for example). In fact, I have not read a paper book in the last couple of years :-)

Quote
Said all this, I think it would be a worthy effort what you are doing, since CBR and CBZ actually aren’t proper formats at all. From what I get, are just variant formats of a compressed ZIP file. :)

Yep, CBR/CBZ are just compressed zip files, but since they are so common and they are so easy to create (people are lazy after all  :P) I decided to make ACBF CBZ-compatible which is good thing. I have also a lot of comic books in CBZ and I'm lazy too to fill in the meta-data too (that GCD database reference will be a killer feature ;D).
Advanced Comic Book Format project - a file format for electronic comic books. Any suggestions and help appreciated.
ACBF Wiki

Offline vaillant

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 04:40:14 PM »
It’s not just a question of preference, but of phisicality.
First, you have to depend on a technology, and an advanced technology. As of now, without a device you have no book: just a set of data.
Secondarily, even when a technology becomes transparent, is not like a physical object.

Without electricity you could still produce a book. Of course, without electricity we wouldn’t be here talking at an ocean's distance, but you’d still be able to read. And there are a lot of other substantial issues, regarding *how* a book is read, and how it affects the way you read.

Offline permpoom

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2012, 12:37:45 AM »
I'm struggling with formats myself. I am totally sold on the iPad as a comic reading device. The new iPad with its retina display is like looking at a printed book... not just a comic book printed on pulp, but high quality printing. I digitized some engravings by Dore from a book from the 1840s and they looked better than the original. I could zoom in and examine details that I could never see without a magnifying glass on the printed page. I want to publish picture books in this format.

The problem is the file formats and distribution networks... The epub format used in Apple's bookstore is designed for text, not images. Amazon uses PDF format, which does everything one would want, but they limit file sizes to 50 MB, which limits the number of full page images considerably. Lulu accepts PDFs up to 500 MB. That seems to be the best I've found so far.

The CBR format just doesn't work for what I want to do. I need blocks of text giving context to the images. Converting all that text to JPEGs at a decent resolution would bloat a 200 page book up too much, and it would slow down switching between pages. It's fine for straight scans of a comic book, but I want to create digital coffee table books.

At this point, I'm experimenting with PDFs and trying to come up with a code of best practices for publishing coffee table e-picture books. I'll probably start by distributing them directly from my own site, but it would be great if some of the e-book stores would take the next logical step.

Has anyone else tried anything like this?

Online Yoc

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Re: Advanced Comic Book Format
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2012, 07:50:40 PM »
Sounds very exciting PP.  Sorry I can't help with any personal experience but I wish you the best on this.
If you'd like to share a preview of anything and get opinions please feel free to post a link here.

Good luck!
-Yoc