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Author Topic: Public Domain Burden of Proof  (Read 4995 times)

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Offline Roygbiv666

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Public Domain Burden of Proof
« on: August 19, 2013, 08:42:39 AM »
Let's say I publish a comic using characters that I believe to be public domain (based on a lazy search of PDSH and LOC First Renewals, etc.).

Then someone tries to "cease and desist" or sue me, claiming they are the copyright holder.

Presumbably, the burden of proof is on the claimant.

Is that me or them? I cannot produce a document saying such and such is PD, but they can produce a document saying they have a copyright (especially if it's registered).

John C - thoughts?

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Public Domain Burden of Proof
« on: August 19, 2013, 08:42:39 AM »

Offline bchat

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 11:27:35 AM »
Let's say I publish a comic using characters that I believe to be public domain (based on a lazy search of PDSH and LOC First Renewals, etc.).

Then someone tries to "cease and desist" or sue me, claiming they are the copyright holder.

Presumbably, the burden of proof is on the claimant.

Is that me or them? I cannot produce a document saying such and such is PD, but they can produce a document saying they have a copyright (especially if it's registered).

John C - thoughts?

I'm not John C, but here's my opinion:  You have to prove that your comic was based off of Public Domain material and not the copyrighted works of another.  DC Comics (for example) can provide proof that they have a Copyright for a version of the character Cat-Man from the 1960s.  A solid defense would start with being able to show anyone that your version of Cat-Man was based off of something that predates DC's copyright.  This would be best accomplished by physically having a copy of the Public Domain book, along with records from the Copyright Office showing the book's original registration and possible "evidence" (i.e. lack of renewal) regarding the book's Public Domain status.

Offline John C

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 04:07:08 PM »
My personal sense of things (not legal advice, etc.) is that yes, the burden of proof is on the accuser, in theory, but in practice, nobody has an obligation to provide proof of anything until the party is presenting evidence in court.

It's said that's why Microsoft gets more money from Android phone sales than Windows phone sales.  They apparently send a letter claiming that the manufacturer infringes on "as many as" some number of patents, and they'll go to court to reveal which patents unless the manufacturer agrees to a royalty scheme.

http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five-times-more-income-from-android-than-from-windows-phone/

Patent cases easily run into the millions of dollars and can be stretched pretty much as long as the judge.  Plus, it's a crap-shoot as to whether the judge can even spell computer, let alone read a software patent and understand whether it applies in very minor cases.  So paying the royalties can be the easier choice.

In copyright, even the boring "you downloaded stuff without paying for it" sense, there's this newer variation:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/07/eff-calls-court-sanctions-copyright-trolls-public-humiliation-tactic

No evidence even of the download, just the assertion and threat that the evidence will be a significant embarrassment when presented.  Judges are getting tired of what amounts to extortion, but they only have authority over cases that have been brought to them and you still need to be before a judge who gets it.

Also, keep in mind that there's very minimal case law on copyrights on "characters," and what's there isn't encouraging.  The Arthur Conan Doyle estate is usually successful in convincing courts their copyrights on Holmes and Watson are absolute, for example, whereas any sensible interpretation would say that a work derived off the earliest stories is legitimate.

http://free-sherlock.com/

If it was me, and didn't want to involve a lawyer, I'd probably try to politely outline the sources I've used (for writing, not copyright research) and ask if they have renewal numbers that contradict your conclusion.  I'd have to guess that (with rare exceptions like the late John Carbonaro) most Cease and Desist letters are going to be generated by someone who's just overzealous and expecting some bitter, argumentative jerk knowingly doing Bad Things, rather than extorting a settlement.  Being curious and polite should defuse it to the point where it's a discussion and not a shakedown.  Nobody wants to sue on the wrong side of an infringement case, since the loser pays the winner's legal fees.

My understanding gets far more limited past that point, but I believe the defense is to show the paper trail as best as it can be assembled, that the original copyright is or is not valid, and the renewals should be on one of these pages or queries and doesn't.  A search of the Copyright Office files turns up nothing, as documented by a specialist who signed off on it.  Wherever you stop, obviously.

The amount of work put in wouldn't affect the verdict, but should affect the fine, since it's unfair to make someone pay much over a renewal that it'd take thousands of dollars (either legal fees or hotel charges) to find.

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 05:22:11 PM »
Would there be any value in a "good faith" defense, i.e. I checked this appearance of Character X, checked the Copyright Office listings for renewals, found no renewal listed, therefore I concluded the work was PD?

If I flip it around and I published Captain Underpants #1 and someone else later published The Adventures of Captain Underpants, I could very readily say in court - I am the (ideally registered) copyright holder of Captain Underpants #1, he ripped me off, etc. But the onus would be on me to say how I have a claim on it (i.e. my name on some paperwork or credited in the work as creator and copyright holder). It seems stupid to say "well prove that I don't have ownership" to the defendant.

If it was me, and didn't want to involve a lawyer, I'd probably try to politely outline the sources I've used (for writing, not copyright research) and ask if they have renewal numbers that contradict your conclusion.  I'd have to guess that (with rare exceptions like the late John Carbonaro) most Cease and Desist letters are going to be generated by someone who's just overzealous and expecting some bitter, argumentative jerk knowingly doing Bad Things, rather than extorting a settlement.  Being curious and polite should defuse it to the point where it's a discussion and not a shakedown.  Nobody wants to sue on the wrong side of an infringement case, since the loser pays the winner's legal fees.

My understanding gets far more limited past that point, but I believe the defense is to show the paper trail as best as it can be assembled, that the original copyright is or is not valid, and the renewals should be on one of these pages or queries and doesn't.  A search of the Copyright Office files turns up nothing, as documented by a specialist who signed off on it.  Wherever you stop, obviously.

The amount of work put in wouldn't affect the verdict, but should affect the fine, since it's unfair to make someone pay much over a renewal that it'd take thousands of dollars (either legal fees or hotel charges) to find.

Offline narfstar

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 04:58:50 AM »
The Cat-Man example has more to do with Trademark than copyright. The original Cat-Man is clearly PD. The only think DC could do (not legal advice) is to not allow Cat-Man to be the main selling point of the cover or advertisement.

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 06:14:03 AM »
Presumably one could not use the name "Cat-Man" on the cover, but could use the image of the PD Cat-Man. Similar to using the Golden Age Daredevil on a cover, but either not using the name or changing it - to Death Defying 'Devil, or RedDevil, or DoubleDare, etc.

Also, I just noticed this monkey icon:  :(|(


The Cat-Man example has more to do with Trademark than copyright. The original Cat-Man is clearly PD. The only think DC could do (not legal advice) is to not allow Cat-Man to be the main selling point of the cover or advertisement.

Offline John C

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 04:36:59 PM »
Maybe it's just trademark, but there's more potential for a lawsuit, since the two Cat-Man characters look so similar.  Accidentally take a step too far in the wrong direction, and the issue is now Substantial Similarity.  That is, even if your elements from exclusively public domain sources start to ape something under copyright (say, Fawcett's Diamond Jack learns he's part of the Diamond Jack Platoon, with Diamond Jacks from every Stellar Precinct as set forth by the Commissioners of All Space), there's gonna be some 'splainins to do.

As another example, figure that using random Quality characters on a modern superhero team is almost certainly OK, as long as there's no chance someone will assume your book is published by DC (which is what trademark's all about).  If that team happens to be Uncle Sam, Doll Man, Black Condor, the Ray, Phantom Lady, and sometimes Firebrand, you're probably right on the border, even though you're not taking anybody else's copyrighted idea--neither the characters nor a roster can be protected.  If the early Star Trek episodes are in fact public domain (it's a surprisingly close call that needs a lot of definitions hammered out), and you bring these Quality characters into action in the timeline where Edith Keeler's survival allows the Nazis to conquer the world, you're probably living dangerously close to the old Freedom Fighters series, even though you've authenticated every element as coming from a public domain source and, depending on the judge, even if you could somehow prove you knew nothing of DC's history with the characters.

As for good faith, a judge could use it to wipe out the fines (which is what I was getting at, in terms of keeping track of the research and going as deep as possible), but it's not going to get the case thrown out, and a malicious plaintiff (the real danger, in my eyes--big companies probably play straight) can still drag the suit out until you settle or run out of money.  Generally, being unable to continue the case is a loss, as far as I know.  In the end, it's an "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law" kind of situation.

Overall, though, the fact that there's any documented proof of copyright protection, even if the only copy is in the hands of the owner you couldn't find, you still didn't do "enough" work.  The assumption, now that copyright has become about "rewarding the artist," is that you're supposed to wait for permission from the artist's representation.  (Don't feel bad, they want the right of refusal on technology, too.)

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 05:21:59 PM »
Wait - what?

Everything in "Star Trek" is after 1963, which doesn't require a renewal. Isn't it?

If the early Star Trek episodes are in fact public domain (it's a surprisingly close call that needs a lot of definitions hammered out)

Offline John C

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 04:36:56 AM »
Sorry, I thought that was common knowledge.  Yes, renewals are irrelevant if it was published with a notice.  But definitions like "publish" are a little fluid, when it comes to television.

If "publish" means something obvious like "make available to the general public," then my understanding (I'm too young to have seen it by nearly a decade) is that the first season or so aired with no copyright notice and the episodes were put into syndication (where the film is rented to any organization who wants it for unlimited times, which could arguably be "offered for sale") with no notices.

If you watch the episodes at StarTrek.com, they don't end with a copyright notice, and the versions on Netflix (restored and enhanced) have very modern CBS animations for copyright.

The way I heard the story (which at least makes some sense), pirate Laserdisc collections sent Paramount to court arguing that none of the foregoing constituted "publication," because they never let the syndication packages out of their sight, so it couldn't have been a "sale"...even though they never collected them back or even confirmed who was renting, which is why so many fans have 8mm copies of episodes and where all those pirate editions got sourced in the first place.

So, it's not a terribly thorough legal analysis, but the upshot seems to be that they have copyrights by fiat (not the car company), but those copyrights aren't particularly legitimate (since it assumes that the viewing audience doesn't matter as a customer) and potentially not stable in the face of a modern legal threat, seeing as how they weren't established until 1978, twelve years after millions of people had seen the episodes and they were in physical possession of thousands.

The folks at Desilu were apparently fairly lazy with copyright notices at the time.  It's generally accepted that there are bunches of public domain episodes of The Lucy Show, for example, and rumors that a huge chunk of Mission: Impossible--which came later and ran longer--might be in the same boat.

Mind you, I don't know how anybody would be able to use any part of the series without tripping over some copyright or other.  It's possible that any number of design, script, or other content elements are protected by someone else's copyright, after all.  The Courage and Roddenberry estates famously own the theme music, Roddenberry because he secretly wrote half-assed lyrics before submitting to the Library of Congress...

Offline bchat

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 09:01:52 AM »
Sorry, I thought that was common knowledge. 

Interesting, and something I had never heard before (Star Trek episodes possibly being Public Domain).  Learn something new every day!

Offline Yoc

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 09:39:34 AM »
Yep, first I'd heard of it as well.  But I'm not a die hard fan of the series.

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 11:26:22 AM »
Though I do remember (being a nerd I always checked copyright dates, mainly to learn Roman numerals I think) and the episodes usually have a copyright date in the 1970s (1978?) earliest. Hmm.



Sorry, I thought that was common knowledge. 

Interesting, and something I had never heard before (Star Trek episodes possibly being Public Domain).  Learn something new every day!

Offline John C

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 04:55:06 PM »
Though I do remember (being a nerd I always checked copyright dates, mainly to learn Roman numerals I think) and the episodes usually have a copyright date in the 1970s (1978?) earliest. Hmm.

Yep, and the release of DiscoVision (the Laserdisc brand name in North America--wonder why the format didn't catch on...) also happens to be 1978.  So, the date either comes from when they sent in a registration to have standing to sue the pirates or from their publication of the official Laserdisc itself.  If the latter case can be proven, it would change things considerably, I'd think.

I probably wouldn't risk building a media empire on the distinction, myself.  After all, Paramount/Viacom/CBS has a court victory they're pretty sure validates their theory that syndication isn't publication, and they'd probably be willing to waste a few million dollars bankrupting a company that insisted otherwise.  But it could be an interesting project for someone, some day, who has nothing better to do than show up in court to make a point.

A smart defense lawyer could probably even make a good case out of the fact that they fix the copyrights after a while.  If airing and syndication don't constitute publishing, then why put a 1968 copyright on something that won't be published until technology changes drastically?

Mostly, though, it's one of those unspoken possibilities.  Sort of like The Lord of the Rings (but only in the United States), since someone printed too many copies overseas and imported them without a formal copyright registration.  I never quite understood the details, but because of the laws at the time, once the publisher crossed some threshold, they lost copyright protection.  Tolkien issued new editions done right ASAP, but nobody ever really questioned if the contents of that edition would then be public domain, too.  And how much were subsequent editions really changed?

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 07:14:59 PM »
I have lost all respect for you.

 ;)

Yep, first I'd heard of it as well.  But I'm not a die hard fan of the series.

Offline John C

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Re: Public Domain Burden of Proof
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 04:59:57 AM »
To be fair, we are talking about the intersection of Forbidden Planet, Wagon Train, and Gulliver's Travels.  Science-fiction cowboys with sneaky social satire tend not to attract a huge audience...