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Author Topic: Man of Steel  (Read 1822 times)

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Offline KevinP

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Man of Steel
« on: July 29, 2013, 11:08:56 PM »
Has anybody seen this? I've heard some things that have killed my interest. That Pa Kent tries to teach Clark that keeping his secret is more important than saving lives. that Superman shows no concern for how many people must have been killed or injured when his fight with Zod decimates Smallville and Metropolis. And that Superman kills. Read Mark Waid's reaction http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/ as he says it "broke his heart." True, Superman was supposedly presented with no other option than killing Zod ... but it's also true that the movie didn't have to be written that way. There is no need to make superheroes "relevant" = they are stories about people in outlandish costumes with impossible powers.
"Stories are signposts to help the world choose between the darkness and the light." ~Arago

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Man of Steel
« on: July 29, 2013, 11:08:56 PM »

Offline John C

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2013, 04:40:37 AM »
I haven't seen it (not that I've seen more than a couple of recent movies in theaters), but to be fair, writers have been putting him on this idiotic path for a while, both inside and outside comic books.  There's the idea that power and kindness is somehow boring and "unrealistic" (whatever that may mean), which I think says more about the writers and the management than the audience and character.

To me, "he had to kill" story is the modern version of the villain making Superman choose between saving Jimmy and saving a planet.  It's transparent manipulation that the hero should be able to see through, but the writer wants to make a point that the hero isn't any better than the rest of us, for some reason.  Or look at Alan Moore's "For the Man Who Has Everything," which seems to be a favorite of a lot of fans--including writers who are complaining about the movie--because Superman is broken out of a fantasy and is so frustrated he's itching to kill Mongul.

My sense has been that the comics industry has, for decades, been terrified of people accusing them of having a product "for kids" (as opposed, apparently, to the far more lucrative market of a shrinking group of middle-aged men who threaten to boycott of a character's boots change), so everything needs to be grim.

Offline darkmark (RIP)

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2013, 03:16:08 PM »
Not *everything*.  But, probably since Wolverine, we've had more of the "killer hero" that appeals more to us in these darker days, I feel...I don't like it, but I grew up in the Sixties, before society started its degenerative path.  What the hey...

Offline John C

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2013, 03:51:56 PM »
You're right that it's not everything, but it's the bread and butter, whereas the stories about people coming together are niche products.

In their defense (and that of society at large), though, it's probably not a degeneration of humanity.  AJ Raffles outsold Sherlock Holmes for a good while, don't forget.  Short-term profits tend to favor sensationalism and grit, but by the same token, in the long term, they also get forgotten.

The forgetfulness may also play into the fact that everybody's always convinced that the upcoming generation is worse than the previous.  We remember the da Vincis, not the dozens or hundreds of primary and secondary sources from the period of people entertaining themselves via animal cruelty (burning cats to death was popular) or public hangings.  We remember beating the Nazis, not studying how to create firestorms on demand to wipe out entire cities.  Long view, the bad can't maintain the focus.

I'm guessing the darker stuff is favored by writers and publishers more than anybody else.  It's easy to sell sex, violence, political divisiveness, or just general unpleasantness and petty bickering.  Those have always sold themselves, again, in the short term, so anybody can make a buck.  But actually takes talent to write a sellable story about people helping each other.

It's starting to look like the Internet might be burning everybody out on the crap, though.  In a world where nudity, self-absorption, violence, any ugly -ism you can imagine, and small-mindedness is all piped directly to your eyeballs 24/7 for free (because production costs have dropped in almost every market), who'd pay for more?  So maybe we'll see a change soon and the anti-heroes will be a tiny niche like they should be for effect.

Or maybe not, and I'm grossly underestimating the market for people feeling vicariously transgressive...

Offline Yoc

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2013, 09:03:18 PM »
I suspect it's part of both John.
Comics in America has forever had a inferiority complex.  'We aren't just for kids dammit.'  So they haven't worried about losing the kid readers when the comic shops came and newsstand sales faded to nothing.  Jacking the prices up while adding unnecessary paper upgrades, etc has shrunk their audience even more.  I walked away from current comics just before the birth of Image.  When I saw what was happening with all the foil/shrink-wrapped/etc crap I though I was lucky to get away when I did.  Today I'm happy they are making stuff I find interesting like the Vertigo line, Mice Templar and Walking Dead - but I certainly worry the lack of any new generations joining the hobby will eventually kill the goose.

Of course they've been saying comics are dead since what, the early 70s?  And like the westerns, superhero movies will eventually fade away as well.

-Yoc

Oh, no, I haven't seen Man of Steel.  I just saw The Avengers last month from the library.  I'm a cheap S.O.B.  ;)

Offline darkmark (RIP)

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 12:19:58 AM »
That's about when I walked away from comics, too.  Although I find a few things interesting nowadays, I like going back and finding out what was done before my time more interesting.

Offline John C

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 03:46:20 PM »
I hung on a little longer and actively avoided anything that looked like a "collectable," but pretty much the same.

And yes, I'm sure there's some good stuff out there, but I'm also at the point of...well, there's more old comics, many public domain (or similar), than I'll ever be able to read, anyway, and they're often more to my tastes.

Same with movies, back to the original topic.  After...oh, maybe '95 or so, it seemed like movies were increasingly focused on exposition and spectacle, rather than storytelling.  I won't say it's worse, since it clearly sells better, but to me, it's like watching a textbook.  And why spend time with them, when I haven't seen the Dr. Mabuse movies...?

I did sit through the Avengers (Netflix - I watched it after being impressed by Whedon's "Much Ado about Nothing" remake), and I honestly had no idea what the heck was going on.  I should rephrase that, actually.  I understood the plot, because it's the generic "bad guy want artifact" story.  But I had no sense of the stakes or why anybody was interested in any of this (other than "stop the bad guy") or why there was an explanation as to why these absurdly-unlikeable people can't get along for more than five seconds at a time except for a shallow joke.  That may well be what people want out of their movies (which isn't a knock--I'm sure I have hobbies that would put most people to sleep), but it's definitely not my thing.

Offline rangerhouse

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 08:11:29 AM »
I saw Man of Steel and thought it was fantastic.  Was it everything I wanted "no".  but it was very very good movie.

Clark father wanted his son's secret kept to protect him from what would come if the world new a super powered alien was alive and well in the US.

The US and military reacted much like he thought the would..  so it worked in the story.  So another modern times remake.

I would love to see a Batman or Superman movie set in the times they where created. 1939-40's  WWII, Old Cars, etc..

Also just saw the Wolvering movie and was expecting another Wolverine DUD,  But I very much enjoyed it. 

Offline CharlieRock

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 01:42:13 AM »
I watched Iron Man 3 and Man of Steel. While both were fun I liked MoS better due to the deus ex machina "here comes the cavalry" ending of IM3. I didn't get hung up on "how could Superman let all those people die?" since it was a full-on alien invasion type flick by that point. It seemed like Superman was a bright light in a dark, grim background to me.

Offline KevinP

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 04:14:52 PM »
Not *everything*.  But, probably since Wolverine, we've had more of the "killer hero" that appeals more to us in these darker days, I feel...I don't like it, but I grew up in the Sixties, before society started its degenerative path.  What the hey...
[/quotI

t's alays been my contention that the degeneration of heroes started with the Kennedy assassination in 1963 and subsequent revelations about his affairs and possible crime connections. JFK was admired as a good guy and when he was killed it seemed to plant the idea that it's stupid to be a good guy. It took a generation or two to sink it (although t was followed by the Batman TV series in 1966. It's odd that the show was a satire on superheroes, because there were no superheroes in movies or tv to satirize at the time) and then we started getting Wolverine, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, WATCHMEN and the Punisher, with their disfunctional messages of it's dumb to be a hero and heroes aren't any better than the rest of us, and the only way to win is to be tougher and meaner than the other guy. Plots shifted from saving the day to grudge fights against arch enemies; some of these felt like gang turf wars more than heroes vs villains.

Today's gritty, grimy, bloody comics are supposed to be mature and realistic. Well, the older comics may have been unrealistically light and optimistic but fanboys can't seem to see that today's are just as immature and unrealistic - but in the opposite direction. Batman dodge hails of bullets or Wolverine slicing up scores of ninjas are as unbelievable as Superman robots or criminals leaving riddles about their next crimes.

I think the writers have forgotten that their subject matter is people in tights with fantastic powers.  Comics used to sell to kids and adults, so pandering to 45 year old fanboys has cost them most of their readership.  And heaven forbid that they try to present role models for younger people! Sure, we can probably never reach the moral heights of Superman or the Lone Ranger, but setting the bar higher than you can reach is a good way to help you exceed what you thought you could do.

OK, end rant.
"Stories are signposts to help the world choose between the darkness and the light." ~Arago

Offline KevinP

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2013, 04:34:59 PM »

Same with movies, back to the original topic.  After...oh, maybe '95 or so, it seemed like movies were increasingly focused on exposition and spectacle, rather than storytelling.  I won't say it's worse, since it clearly sells better, but to me, it's like watching a textbook.  And why spend time with them, when I haven't seen the Dr. Mabuse movies...?



Most of my younger friends are impressed by today's action movies. I was disturbed at fanboy reaction to THE HUNGER GAMES: "Why didn't she use her archery skills to just kill everybody off and win the Games?" ... Because there's no story in that!

Watching a trailer for GRAVITY -an attempt at a realistic drama/character study about astronauts surviving the destruction of their space platform, my friends said, "Not interested, not enough action." 

No wonder they loved the new STAR TREK, which took an sf drama and made a roller coaster action film.

I saw PACIFIC RIM -okay, I liked the message of "we have to work together," but the jaegers were way too big to be believable; time, money, raw material) but since then I'm going more for dramas or romantic comedies.
"Stories are signposts to help the world choose between the darkness and the light." ~Arago

Offline KevinP

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 04:38:30 PM »
To me, "he had to kill" story is the modern version of the villain making Superman choose between saving Jimmy and saving a planet.  It's transparent manipulation that the hero should be able to see through, but the writer wants to make a point that the hero isn't any better than the rest of us, for some reason.  rim.

Also, it's a slippery slope. He "had to kill" in this movie, so fans are going to want more in the sequels.  Wonder Woman "had to kill" Maxwell Lord, now she's a bloody handed sword wielding warrior.
"Stories are signposts to help the world choose between the darkness and the light." ~Arago

Offline KevinP

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 04:42:05 PM »


I'm guessing the darker stuff is favored by writers and publishers more than anybody else.  It's easy to sell sex, violence, political divisiveness, or just general unpleasantness and petty bickering.  Those have always sold themselves, again, in the short term, so anybody can make a buck.  But actually takes talent to write a sellable story about people helping each other.

It's starting to look like the Internet might be burning everybody out on the crap, though.  In a world where nudity, self-absorption, violence, any ugly -ism you can imagine, and small-mindedness is all piped directly to your eyeballs 24/7 for free (because production costs have dropped in almost every market), who'd pay for more?  So maybe we'll see a change soon and the anti-heroes will be a tiny niche like they should be for effect.



I'd love to see that. In fact, I'd be thrilled if the new Doc Savage movie was the one to reverse the trend.
"Stories are signposts to help the world choose between the darkness and the light." ~Arago

Offline Catman

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2013, 07:58:43 PM »

I actually checked out Man of Steel 3 times in the theaters, so it goes without saying I enjoyed it quite a bit. Was it perfect? No. But few movies are. However, it told a more modernized Post-Crisis like Superman story that I've been waiting for YEARS to see done in worthwhile fashion. I found Man of Steel to have achieved just that.

Offline CharlieRock

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Re: Man of Steel
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 03:10:41 PM »

I actually checked out Man of Steel 3 times in the theaters, so it goes without saying I enjoyed it quite a bit. Was it perfect? No. But few movies are. However, it told a more modernized Post-Crisis like Superman story that I've been waiting for YEARS to see done in worthwhile fashion. I found Man of Steel to have achieved just that.

I watched it twice in the theaters. But then again I was one of the few who watched Pacific Rim in the theater as well, lol.