Batman VS Cpt America

[NJROLLI]

Even with the super Soldier serum, Batman has been trained too well. In hand to hand combat my vote is for the Dark Knight.
I know this is an old beat down subject, but its my first post and would enjoy other users input.

[paw broon]

Ah now, which Batman?  The original dark avenger from the early '40's; the '50's - early '60's daft aliens, creatures, silly adventures;  the '60's star of those camp stories;  the menacing Batman of the Adams (and others) time; or the newer, almost unreadable, seedy, over the top serious guy? Your choice would ake a huge difference.
I've always been a Cap fan and the new series especially with Alan Davis on pencils looks so good.  But I loved Batman for a long time, incl. the late '50's silly stuff which is such good fun.  And I would agree with you to the extent that Bats decked Guy Gardner, wielder of one of the most potent weapons in the DC universe and every one is in awe of him .  So, with no powers, Batman was one of the most feared of comic book heroes.
In some ways The Phantom is a similar - no powers, simply a legend behind a superbly skilled, trained, intelligent, fearless hero.

[jfglade]

 I think arguments of this nature are a lot like the quote about football games, "On any given day, any team can beat any other team." The winner of any Crossover scuffle is usually based on demographics of the target audience. Basically, I'm willing to accept your contention that Batman could defeat Captain America in hand to hand combat, but my response is "Why does that matter to you?"

[jfglade]

...In some ways The Phantom is a similar - no powers, simply a legend behind a superbly skilled, trained, intelligent, fearless hero.

 Lee Falk once said of the Phantom (one of my favorite characters), "Someone could do anything the Phantom can do, but no one can do everything the Phantom can do."

 Sometimes, like Dick Tracy, the Phantom had to work very, very hard to accomplish what he wanted which made it very satisfying to see him suceed.

 My favorite version of Batman is from the late forties and early fifties who smiled a good deal, the one who only terrified criminals instead of everyone.

[paw broon]

I think arguments of this nature are a lot like the quote about football games, "On any given day, any team can beat any other team." The winner of any Crossover scuffle is usually based on demographics of the target audience. Basically, I'm willing to accept your contention that Batman could defeat Captain America in hand to hand combat, but my response is "Why does that matter to you?"

Oh dear.  Not sure if this is aimed at me or NJROLLI or both but this is a GA forum.
I just fancied a bit of fun. I really don't care. In fact I find modern Batman comics unreadable but it seemed like a good idea to respond in a light hearted way to a new member.  A nice, friendly response.  3 G.A. characters in the same answer and a bit of speculation can be enjoyable.  Anyway I think NJROLLI  and I are bang on, so there.
By the way, it's my opinion that Joe Montana is the arguably the best Q/B to grace a football field never mind the era.  And while the boring Brady has better stats, it doesn't make him comfortable to watch.  Anyway I grew up with Kenny Anderson and then the the hero that was Boomer Esiason and I still think Montana is the best.  But before I get stick for not rating Jurgensen etc. they were before we had American Football on t.v. here.  None of this proves anything but I'm finding it fun.

[NJROLLI]

I was ref. the newer Batman. I do remember in the older CPt, America  just had the powers of an Olympic athlete.
The newer Cpt., ofcourse has quicker healing and more strength. (Football) Joe M, is Def one of the best. The closest I have seen
in todays game is Drew Brees. The Phantom was def cool, although the Billy Zane movie back in the 90's was a little on the cheese side.
Any who the newer Batman has the ability to kill with one punch.(never see it) The new Red Hood animation was pretty dam cool, if anyone gets the chance to see it. Just downloaded BAFF Myseteries and liked it. Thanks for the responses to an old crossover debate.
I believe due to fan votes Cpt.America did win(Marvel/DC crossover comic), but I 4get, if anyone knows the answer?
PS> What does it mean to me?
I guess I just like to read fan fiction responses.

[paw broon]

Actually, I enjoy the Phantom movie and we watched it again recently. The serial is very good but be careful of the unofficial follow up serial, Captain Africa - pretty poor stuff.  The pilot for the Phantom t.v. show, which didn't happen, is not too bad and there are a few copies of it about at British marts.  I'm a phan, completely addicted.  From time to time I'm reading my way again through a big pile of Australian Frew Phantoms, some Bastei German issues and some Spanish landscapes I picked up recently. I have a small collection of Scandinavian issues but can't read a word of them.  Pictures are nice though.
Sorry about the "new" Batman but all that unleavened gloom, posturing and darkness just leaves me cold.

[JVJ (RIP)]

IF such a confrontation EVER occurred in real comics, it would be a draw - because that's what ALWAYS happens in such cases. Bad publicity for it to occur any other way. So, as a mental exercise, it's like doing pushups forever. You'll end up with a very strong mind - but no solution.

(|:{>

[jfglade]

Actually, I enjoy the Phantom movie and we watched it again recently. The serial is very good but be careful of the unofficial follow up serial, Captain Africa - pretty poor stuff.  The pilot for the Phantom t.v. show, which didn't happen, is not too bad and there are a few copies of it about at British marts.  I'm a phan, completely addicted.  From time to time I'm reading my way again through a big pile of Australian Frew Phantoms, some Bastei German issues and some Spanish landscapes I picked up recently. I have a small collection of Scandinavian issues but can't read a word of them.  Pictures are nice though.
Sorry about the "new" Batman but all that unleavened gloom, posturing and darkness just leaves me cold.

 I rather like the Phantom movie myself, and the Phantom serial is far better than most movie serials. I've never seen the Captain Africa serial but I remember a book titled "The Great Movie Serials" claiming it was made by the same studio (Columbia?) which didn't want to pay for the license to use the Phantom again but that the costume is so much like the Phantom's so long shot footage from the Phantom serial could be reused. I've never seen the Phantom television pilot. I'd have to say I'm a Phantom Phan, although my stack of Frew issues is pretty small. I did manage to trade some of the Moonstone issues with a Phan in Australia from some of the Frew Phantom Annuals. A few of the Frew issues I have reprint some of the single issue stories from the Scandinavian issues with the text translated; I think I would find them to be very mysterious without the text translated.

 I also have trouble warming up to the current Batman product (or from the past twenty years or so, for that matter).

 I think JVJ has the best take on the "Can (fill in the blank) beat (fill in the blank)?" question.

[John C]

To me, there are so many variables even in "normal" cases (people bet on boxing matches for a reason) that trying to analyze fictional characters from different worlds in different contexts is a quick way to go way off the deep end.

Classic DC, they'd never actually fight.  Classic Marvel, the fight would be interrupted by the villains.  Some writers would have Batman cheat.  Some would have Cap super-strong and a better fighter.

That's not to dismiss the question or the fun, but...y'know, even if they were actual people who could be measured, it'd be a crapshoot.

The ideal version plays out as follows.

Cap handily beats Batman, and is about to kill him with the shield, when Batman realizes that his opponent is actually a Skrull!  So he takes the shield and bludgeons the alien to death (modern comics...), then lights the corpse on fire, just in case it's a Martian.

He releases Cap from Luthor's deathtrap (without questioning why Luthor is even in this story), but Cap spots a feather peeking out from under the cowl and reveals that Batman is actually...Owl-Man (pick your favorite version), and the two fight until Owl-Man, about to be defeated, vanishes into some interdimensional villain conference run by Loki or the Ultra-Humanite--like CES or something, but in an even weirder location than Vegas.  After visiting several alternate Earths with different-era Batmen, Cap finally stumbles across the Millerian antisocial thug, and the two spar just to preserve the form before the writer realizes that the deadline is approaching.

They race back to New York, where a portal above the Statue of Liberty is squeezing shut.  Not sure which Earth is which anymore, but sick of listening to his idiotic brooding narration boxes, Cap flings the Caped Crusader at Lady Liberty's torch and (coincidentally) home.

But is it really Captain America, or is it...a Space Phantom!?  Aaaaaaah!  Ahem.  I said, "aaaaaaaah."  No?

Oh, and Grant Morrison appears in-panel for, like, half a page somewhere in the middle, wearing a funny hat from a 1950s Batman story nobody has actually ever read and an Escher print t-shirt, talking about metaspaces and recursive storytelling and pretending he's never read Douglas Hofstader.

And THAT is why I don't write comics.  Basically, no matter who wins, the readers always lose!

[JVJ (RIP)]

To me, there are so many variables even in "normal" cases (people bet

John, I truly enjoy your posts and I hope to heaven you don't take this in any negative way, but I read just the above of your response and said to myself, "This is a John C. comment." You have "style", my friend.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[narfstar]

To be brief my money would be on Batman because he is the more well studied. A large part of Batman's power is from his brain. He would know Cap better than Cap knows himself and figure out a way to beat him. Much like the current movie version of Sherlock Holmes. The new Sherlock may not be classic Shelock but it is fun to watch which is what I go to movies for. And I too enjoyed the Phantom movie as well as the serial. Here is a link to the TV pilot should be PD. If confirmed actual file could be posted here it is only 81 megs.
https://rapidshare.com/files/557059825/The_Phantom_Tv_Pilot.mp4

[paw broon]

John C, that was excellent.
Jon, Frew has done a good job with making Scandinavian Phantom stories available to English speakers.  It's a pity their production values are quite low.  But the stories and art are, for the most part, very entertaining, especially the ones featuring previous Phantoms.
JVJ, re. who would win, you are correct.  Apart from, who would win in a fight between Cerebus and Herbie?  Perhaps John C could talk us through that one. 

[Yoc]

John, I truly enjoy your posts and I hope to heaven you don't take this in any negative way, but I read just the above of your response and said to myself, "This is a John C. comment." You have "style", my friend.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

Amen to that Jim.  It's why I've always enjoyed John's messages on almost any matter.  He's a very valuable member of DCM staff, more than he likely knows.

[John C]

Now, now.  It sounds insincere, but everybody is important to the community.  There's no community without them, so this won't be a back-patting ceremony.  Even that guy is important, the one trying to eat cereal off his belly, wondering why there's only one comic to download.

Otherwise, I'm glad other people enjoyed it.  For me, messing around with ideas is always fun.