General Category > Comic Related Discussion
Bob Kane and his ghost artists
Bob Hughes:
As far as Green Lantern and the Lensmen go, the only person who would have known was John Broome and he's no longer with us. Once again you'd have to check publication dates.
The Batman/Bat coincidence is certainly no bigger than the X-Men/Doom Patrol coincidence. And since the Batman came out first, the other guys really have no case. But obviously in both cases pages could have been lying about, people could have shown samples to other folks. Loose lips sink ships, etc. Vince Colletta got in trouble for showing Kirby New Gods pages around the Marvel offices before they were printed. I'm sure that wasn't a totally unique event.
Roygbiv666:
--- Quote from: Bob Hughes on August 20, 2010, 02:10:33 PM ---As far as Green Lantern and the Lensmen go, the only person who would have known was John Broome and he's no longer with us. Once again you'd have to check publication dates.
The Batman/Bat coincidence is certainly no bigger than the X-Men/Doom Patrol coincidence. And since the Batman came out first, the other guys really have no case. But obviously in both cases pages could have been lying about, people could have shown samples to other folks. Loose lips sink ships, etc. Vince Colletta got in trouble for showing Kirby New Gods pages around the Marvel offices before they were printed. I'm sure that wasn't a totally unique event.
--- End quote ---
As far as the GL Corps and Lensman, the "high concept" for both is "space cops", isn't it? Corps = police force, Guardians = bureaucrats, power ring = gun. Not exactly that complicated.
From http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_Patrol#Origins_and_X-Men
--- Quote ---According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt:
"...I’ve become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months."
--- End quote ---
Doom Patrol rocks!
BobS:
Hi Kurt!
--- Quote from: moondood on August 17, 2010, 02:38:09 AM ---Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
//As far as I know--no. Roussos came in very early and did a lot of the early lettering on the strip [I'm a comics letterer]. On a side note--when I worked in the Marvel bullpen in the 80's, Roussos was a cover colorist over there, I think he was...and I would pass him in the halls and think--Man, this guy lettered those early Batman stories---how cool is that? I wish I woulda said something--or shook his hand or something....but I was in awe.
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I wrote Roussos several times in the 1980s. He responded to 2 of my letters, and sent me a couple pages of original art he had inked. One was a Metal Men page penciled by Sekowsky and I've forgotten what the other page was or even if I kept it. If I even find the letters (I'm a totally disorganized packrat), I'll share them.
--- Quote ---When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
//An excellent question--and I think it depends on how you define "comic book art"...I think he had a hand in it from time to time--sometimes not at all [the Dick Sprang stories--and earlier...the Robinson stories that he did solo]. The earlier the story--the more he may have played a part. By the 50's, I think, he was approving material--or something along those lines.
--- End quote ---
I wonder if he had even that much involvement.
I wouldn't be surprised if Kane used ghost artists on Batman from the beginning.
Within the 1st year of Batman (in Detective Comics), Roussos was at least assisting.
Did you check out the Target and Targeteers story (with "Inky" Roussos as a character and Roussos ghost art) by the way?
--- Quote ---Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
//I don't think so---the new look was typified by the yellow oval on the chest--that was pretty much Murphy Anderson if memory serves [at first, anyway]--and the new look was an attempt to get away from the Moldoff mold of the previous 12 yrs [prior to 1964, I think]....the alien stories of the 50's and early 60's are pretty typical Moldoff stories--art-wise, that is.
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Infantino pencilled early New Look Batman. I dislike the New Look even more than the earlier alien etc. stories. I fondly remember "The Alien Batman" and vaguely remember a Golden Age Batman story with aliens. Golden Age Batman even had a Frankenstein('s monster) story.
New Look tried unsuccessfully to get rid of Alfred, the Batcave, etc. Adams and Giordano had Batman driving sports cars rather than Batmobile.
For continuity on the 'Bob Kane signed' stories I believe Moldoff continued doing the art.
At one point (Batman daily newspaper strip?), I believe Joe Giella was doing the art -- maybe (probably?) he inked Moldoff New Look stories.
--- Quote ---When I learned Moldoff did all that butt-ugly art, I was astonished--his Hawkman in the 40's was kinda klunky--but it had a kind of grace that was completely lacking in his Batman stories---only when I understood that he was ghosting for Kane did I get it--and I think Moldoff was ghosting for Kane without DC's knowledge, if my memory is right.
--- End quote ---
Shelly's Hawkman art was really primitive (IMO), and much of the faces etc. were copied from Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon. Many of the early GA artists copied from Raymond.
Frank Frollo in early Centaur comics copied Raymond too. Many other GA artists copied/emulated Milt Caniff. (Back in the 1960s Dan Atkins copied Russ Manning.)
My current favorite GA copier copied Roy Crane in Centaur Star Ranger Funnies etc. - Joe Buresch. Like most of the 1930s artists, his art didn't have much background art, but (IMO) he drew a lot better than Shelly did on Hawkman.
There's much Shelly art in ACG comics and it looks about the same as his Batman art.
--- Quote ---Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
//I'd never heard that--but Kane was pretty much a business-man by that time, so maybe. For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.
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Siegel and Shuster had familes to feed, most likely. What could they do -- no sign their paychecks and maybe be thrown out on the streets. IMO, Liebowitz (especially) and Donenfeld were bad people, real-life villians.
--- Quote ---Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
//Boy, the stories are all over the map, but I don't think Kane had much to do with either. He wasn't smart enough to understand their story function to actually create them. R and F are the likely suspects...and, honestly, I think Finger came up with Robin, and Robinson came up with Joker--but there may be some overlap. Kane was not much of a story guy.
It's like the fate of DB Cooper [not his real name] -- we'll never know the truth.
[/unquote]
Kane did Peter Pup and Clip Carson before Batman. I believe Finger wrote Clip Carson tho.
Biljo White (a truly nice guy) I believe interviewed Robinson in Batmania. Robinson seems to have been a very gregarious guy -- and he tried to take credit for Robin and Joker.
Apparently Bob Kane got pissed off because maybe Biljo didn't contact him and give him the opportunity to tell his side of the story. I've browsed thru Kane's autobiography.
I too suspect Finger came up with the characters, despite the Joker playing card by either Kane or Robinson, I forget which.
I found an internet reference to Kane using a ghost artist for the art prints.
Kane has little credibility (IMO) due to his hiding his ghost artists for so long.
--- Quote ---Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
//Absolutely--If even half of what I've read is true, he was the one who shaped the image [cowl, color, cape, ears], character background, the atmosphere [borrowed from the very moody Shadow magazine]...and along the way created a mythos that Kane just wasn't equipped for. As much as I like the early Kane stories [much of it due to Finger]--I think Kane was a dick. His "creation" was a success and he took all credit. On the other hand, Finger was an introvert and insecure about his skills--so it was perfect for Kane to take advantage. Finger was enormously talented.
But Bill Finger will not be officially credited because as I mentioned earlier, Kane got a great deal from DC Comics from the get-go in 1939--sole credit. Something S&S didn't have with Superman...so their credit was dropped in the late 40's [I think in relation to their Superboy lawsuit].
Legally, DC cannot credit Bill Finger with co-creation due to the contracts.
They try to rectify it somewhat in collections and articles---but official credit will and does go to Bob Kane....even on the movies.
On another personal note--I met Dick Sprang---one a' my all time favorite Bat-artists in San Diego--man, in 1986, I think---I DID shake his hand and even got an autograph--even though I'm not much of an autograph guy--even when I later worked on Hollywood films--But this man--I HAD TO. I even wrote a letter about it to the CBG that was published.
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Cool. I got letters and a signed print from Hal Foster back in the 1960s.
--- Quote ---Obviously I'm a Bat-freak--even lettered the Legends of the Dark Knight series for a few years [good times]--and there are lots of good Bat-artists along the way--Kane included in a weird way.
--- End quote ---
I was a Batman purist for a long time. Now I accept that there isn't ONE Batman. I still prefer the 1939-1963 Batman (even with inconsistencies), but I also like the
Batman of Ra's al Ghul, Azrael, etc. I didn't much like Neal Adams' Batman in Batman Comics and Detective Comics but did like Adams' Batman in Brave and Bold - Bork, Hellgrammite, etc. Bob Haney wrote those.
--- Quote ---
Robinson, Sprang, Adams, Newton, Aparo---whew! Good stuff.
Kurt Hathaway
aka moondood
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Bob
Public Enemy #1
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BobS:
--- Quote ---Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
--- End quote ---
Yes, Sheldon Moldoff ghosted the earliest stories after the second one.
Moldoff ghosted Batman from Detective Comics #29????
Can you point me to a reference -- book or internet link?
--- Quote ---When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
--- End quote ---
Probably around 1947/48. The Batman origin story from around then is by him. Shortly after that Lew Schwartz took over- but Kane tended to redraw all his Batman figures- so you could say he was still involved. I don't think Kane redrew Moldoff's figures starting in 1954.
OK.
Jack Burnley, his brother, and Dick Sprang, and probably others did some Batman art earlier than 1947/48. I believe Sprang did the alien story in an early GA Batman I used to have.
--- Quote ---Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
--- End quote ---
The stuff signed by Bob Kane was either by Shelly Moldoff, Joe Giella or Chic Stone.
Chic Stone, interesting. Stone inked Kirby on F4, did Nemesis for ACG, and supposedly did some Captain Sprocket in Archie's Madhouse (story I have original art of).
--- Quote ---Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
--- End quote ---
Probably.
--- Quote ---Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
--- End quote ---
Finger wrote the stories. Without the stories the ideas are meaningless
--- Quote ---Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
--- End quote ---
I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.
How about Green Lantern? Gardner Fox solely or Fox and Purcell?
How about Clip Carson? Finger solely, or Kane and Finger.
Wasn't Finger working for Kane when Batman came to fruition?
I don't believe that Finger created Batman without Kane's input.
Once when he was especially angry, Kirby claimed that solely he created and wrote Fantastic Four.
I tend to believe that Lee had very little to do on F4 stories (plotted by Kirby) and nothing to do with the art.
http://www.dccomicsartists.com/batman/batwho.htm
[/quote]
Thanks for the link.
BobS:
--- Quote from: darkmark on August 20, 2010, 08:47:06 AM ---It's like this. Lens=power ring. Lensmen=Green Lantern Corps. Arisians=Guardians of the Universe. Eddorians=Qwardians. One of the best novels for comparison, and my fave, is CHILDREN OF THE LENS. I doubt DC will ever acknowledge this, any more than we'll hear Disney admit how much of THE LION KING was swiped from SIMBA, THE WHITE LION. My 2 cents plain.
--- End quote ---
I think an early Alter Ego has an article on the Lensman series.
I like Silver Age Green Lantern anyway. Lots of cool stuff, not including "Pieface" embarassing racist name. I like the 1st GL 5700 AD story
I also like the GA Green Lantern -- including better sidekick Doiby Dickles. I like the humor and I like the MAGIC origin of several of the 1940s DC heroes. Harlequin was fun.
Bob Stump
Public/Darkmark Enemy #1
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