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Author Topic: Holyoke is a Myth...  (Read 12999 times)

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Offline Captain DJ

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 07:56:16 AM »
Should be working now.

Turns out problem was 2 Blue Beetle files and 1 other file that were in database, in the link to cat table but the cat they were listed under wasn't in the category table. Deleted these comics since they didn't work anyway and all seems to be working now. This bug been on GAC since 2006 it seems and you were first to have reported it :)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 07:56:16 AM »

Offline Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 10:47:45 AM »
I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues).  Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.

Hmm... I should pay attention to these boards more often :-)  I wrote up a huge discussion of all of these companies on the gcd-main list near the beginning of the year.  I was going to repost it here, but a lot of it covers details of exactly how the GCD entries are organized wrongly, and 90% of the rest of it is the same as what JVJ said to start off this threat (wonderfully provocative title!) so I'll just skip to replying to a few points and addressing one or two missed items.

The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually.  Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this).  After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there.  Previously, as Bob Hughes just noted on a wonderfully researched post on the GCD's main list, Temerson was getting his material from Bert Whitman productions.  This was true for the early companies (Brookwood, Tem and Nita) and for Green Hornet under Helnit.  Bob has also identified the connection with Temerson's much earlier comics venture, Ultem (with I.W. Ullman).

Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely.  Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces.  Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop.  At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.

An interesting point of difference between how the "Holyoke" issues of Cat-Man and Captain Aero were handled vs how Blue Beetle was handled- the Temerson titles were produced by the same staff.  Basically, just the printing/ownership changed.  But the Blue Beetle title didn't come with the entire former Fox staff, so it changed under Holyoke, with many of the Temerson artists contributing (and some then continuing into Sparkling Stars).

thanks,
-henry

Offline phabox (RIP)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 10:55:21 AM »
Interesting stuff, very slowly the mystery of these companies is starting to unfold.

-Nigel

Offline bchat

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 11:50:38 AM »
The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually.  Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this).  After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there. 

So, if I'm understanding this statement correctly, the connection of Bilbara to "Holyoke" is made by a single creator (Quinlan) working for both companies?  That's not really much of a connection, considering how many other creators worked for multiple publishers.

Quote
Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely.  Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces.  Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop.  At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.

Cyclone Comics 1 (Bilbara) & Champion Comics 9 (Worth) both have the same editorial address, yet have different publication addresses (420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO & 8 Lord Street, Buffalo NY respectively).  Family Comics Inc published Speed Comics 43 (May-June 1946) using a publication address of 1117 Wolfendale Ave, Pittsburgh PA, while FCI's All-New Comics 13 (July-August 1946) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO.  Centuar Publications' Wham Comics 1 (Nov 1940) has a publication address of 221 East 20th St., Chicago IL, while their Super Spy 1 (Oct 1940) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO.  So, citing different printing addresses isn't enough to convince me that two titles sharing the same editorial address during the same period of time were published by different companies.  All that the different printing addresses tell me is that different printers were used to print different books.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 11:53:38 AM by bchat »

Offline JVJ

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM »
I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues).  Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.

Hmm... I should pay attention to these boards more often :-)  I wrote up a huge discussion of all of these companies on the gcd-main list near the beginning of the year.  I was going to repost it here, but a lot of it covers details of exactly how the GCD entries are organized wrongly, and 90% of the rest of it is the same as what JVJ said to start off this threat (wonderfully provocative title!) so I'll just skip to replying to a few points and addressing one or two missed items.

The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually.  Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this).  After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there.  Previously, as Bob Hughes just noted on a wonderfully researched post on the GCD's main list, Temerson was getting his material from Bert Whitman productions.  This was true for the early companies (Brookwood, Tem and Nita) and for Green Hornet under Helnit.  Bob has also identified the connection with Temerson's much earlier comics venture, Ultem (with I.W. Ullman).

Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely.  Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces.  Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop.  At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.

An interesting point of difference between how the "Holyoke" issues of Cat-Man and Captain Aero were handled vs how Blue Beetle was handled- the Temerson titles were produced by the same staff.  Basically, just the printing/ownership changed.  But the Blue Beetle title didn't come with the entire former Fox staff, so it changed under Holyoke, with many of the Temerson artists contributing (and some then continuing into Sparkling Stars).

thanks,
-henry

Thanks, Henry,
glad you're able to add some clarity to the Quinlan connection. It's certainly true that Bilbara (Cyclone) and Worth (Champion) both ended before Helnit (Green Hornet, Catman, Capt. Aero and Capt. Fearless) begin. It's a fact I'd noticed but not internalized with regard Quinlan's role.

There is still the weird "coincidence" of Whirlwind (main character "Cyclone") debuting from Nita the same month that Cyclone debuts from Bilbara. I believe it is pure coincidence, but others find it indicative of some hidden connection. I remain skeptical.

Does anyone have an exact date on Green Hornet #1? My research shows 12/40, but that seems a couple of months early based on all the other Helnit titles. And, actually, my notes on all of the GH issues are second hand. Does anyone have dates and publishing addresses directly from the comics?

I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?

Okay, I wanted to shoehorn Great and Choice in, and it's probably asking too much. They were distributed by ANC, too, as well as built from Iger Shop work, so the shoe probably really doesn't fit. I understand the nature of the addresses in New York. The current ground floor of 220 W 42nd St. appears to be a very large MacDonalds, with lots of office space above. Who knows what it looked like 70 years ago? BTW, you're correct when you say that Great "did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address," but it should be said that it did not list ANY printing address.

Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.

Thanks again for your interesting commentary and someday I'll have to locate that CBM and reread the interview with Carnahan's daughter.

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Offline JVJ

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2010, 12:05:08 PM »
So, if I'm understanding this statement correctly, the connection of Bilbara to "Holyoke" is made by a single creator (Quinlan) working for both companies?  That's not really much of a connection, considering how many other creators worked for multiple publishers.

Cyclone Comics 1 (Bilbara) & Champion Comics 9 (Worth) both have the same editorial address, yet have different publication addresses (420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO & 8 Lord Street, Buffalo NY respectively).  Family Comics Inc published Speed Comics 43 (May-June 1946) using a publication address of 1117 Wolfendale Ave, Pittsburgh PA, while FCI's All-New Comics 13 (July-August 1946) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO.  Centuar Publications' Wham Comics 1 (Nov 1940) has a publication address of 221 East 20th St., Chicago IL, while their Super Spy 1 (Oct 1940) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO.  So, citing different printing addresses isn't enough to convince me that two titles sharing the same editorial address during the same period of time were published by different companies.  All that the different printing addresses tell me is that different printers were used to print different books.

True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.

And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.

Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.

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Offline bchat

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2010, 12:49:25 PM »
True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.

After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.

Quote
And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.

Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.

Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me.  The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Offline Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2010, 01:36:51 PM »
True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.

After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.

Yes, I should have emphasized that because of the nature of Holyoke Publishing Co., Inc. coming from the Holyoke printing business, I consider the lack of a Holyoke printing address to have more significance than I would usually attach to the printing address.  As far as I know, all actual Holyoke books were printed at Holyoke, and say so.

Also, JVJ mentioned the distribution, which I had forgotten about but was also a supporting point when Frank Motler, the fellow from bipcomics.com (whose name is escaping me at the moment) and I kicked this around a while back.  This is why Great is now listed separately in the bipcomics.com indicia listings, btw.

And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.

Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.

Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me.  The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Yup, this is what I get for dashing off a quick message on a complex topic while running late for work :-)  I do have some more Helnit/Holyoke issues I'd like to scan (picked up Captain Fearless #2 and Captain Aero #v1#8 (2) at WonderCon) but there's so much GCD coding to get done...

Thanks to all for their comments on this- the Temerson/Holyoke mess is one of my favorite topics in golden age publishing.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 05:00:38 PM by fox_centaur »

Offline Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PM »
Thanks, Henry,
glad you're able to add some clarity to the Quinlan connection. It's certainly true that Bilbara (Cyclone) and Worth (Champion) both ended before Helnit (Green Hornet, Catman, Capt. Aero and Capt. Fearless) begin. It's a fact I'd noticed but not internalized with regard Quinlan's role.

I have a really big spreadsheet where the columns are months (cover dates) from 1935-1955 and the rows are series grouped by publisher with various bits of coloring.  It's wonderful for making certain things jump out from the data.  The whole Worth / Temerson / Holyoke thing (with Narrative and Aviation Press often wrongly associated) is a lot easier to work out when you see it like that.

There is still the weird "coincidence" of Whirlwind (main character "Cyclone") debuting from Nita the same month that Cyclone debuts from Bilbara. I believe it is pure coincidence, but others find it indicative of some hidden connection. I remain skeptical.
I'm with you on this coincidence.  Likewise the use of Volton- it's just a name that Quinlan recycled, the characters are quite different.

Does anyone have an exact date on Green Hornet #1? My research shows 12/40, but that seems a couple of months early based on all the other Helnit titles. And, actually, my notes on all of the GH issues are second hand. Does anyone have dates and publishing addresses directly from the comics?

I've never found clear info on this book either.

I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?

This was Bob Hughes' analysis.  I'll follow up on the gcd-main list.

Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.

I'll have to look into the data I have.  I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address.  Worth a look- thanks!

On a related note, anyone know anything about Continental Publications, that publised four issues of Foodini (licensed tie-in) much later on (50's?  not near my notes right now).  Same address as Continental Magazines, but the huge gap and different content raise questions.  Like the link between Ultem and Brookwood, it may require looking at Temerson's non-comics work to see if there is continuity.

thanks,
-henry

Offline Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2010, 02:22:10 PM »
Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.

I'll have to look into the data I have.  I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address.  Worth a look- thanks!

Just realized I said Quinlan => Cole while you were talking about Willner and Ulmer.  I did notice those two appearing in Holyoke (while I found only one or two Quinlan credits in the Blue Beetle run, at most).  Blue Beetle seems to be the means by which Holyoke acquired it's own relationships with artists to continue on into Sparkling Stars.  Since Blue Beetle, unlike Cat-Man and Captain Aero, didn't come with its own staff, as far as I can tell it became largely produced by the Temerson staff (or freelancers), some of whom kept on as Holyoke became a "real" publisher.

I hadn't noticed Willner as editor.  I really want to go over the Cat-Man run and fix it up in the GCD.  Also, I have an issue or two that isn't scanned or is only partially scanned (and indexed) that I need to get into both the GCD and the DCM.

Thanks for the reply, Jim!

Offline JVJ

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 02:26:33 PM »
Where is Mark Carlson?

I would like to acknowledge the import of Mark Carlson on this. My interest in Holyoke, Continental, Helnit, Rural Home, Aviation Press, Narrative, etc. was all stimulated by a series of correspondence I had with Mark 25-30 years ago and material we worked on for APA-I. I have a section on my "Have List" (and two boxes in my attic) labeled "Carlson's Comics" - just because that's how I think of many of them.

Does ANYONE know where Mark is or what became of him? I would love to find out what he's learned in the last few decades. And even if I don't connect up with him, he deserves a mention in Comics Fandom History for his pioneering work in this area.

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Offline archiver_USA

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 02:49:00 PM »
And while who ever is in there fixing "Holyoke" to be one of the actual Temerson companies... can we fix the name in the small press section that currently says "Continental"?  Key and Lucky comics are from Consolidated Magazines (Rubinstein), not Continental Magazines (Temerson).

Just my 2-cent carry-over from GAC. ;-)

Offline JVJ

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2010, 03:08:18 PM »
And while who ever is in there fixing "Holyoke" to be one of the actual Temerson companies... can we fix the name in the small press section that currently says "Continental"?  Key and Lucky comics are from Consolidated Magazines (Rubinstein), not Continental Magazines (Temerson).

Just my 2-cent carry-over from GAC. ;-)

Yes, archiver,
there's a lot of misinformation being reinforced on both GAC and DCM. Let's fix as much as we can.

Thanks. Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Offline Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2010, 03:51:43 PM »
I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?

I have Crash #3 but not scanned, however most of Crash is scanned at least from fiche on this site, as is at least one issue of Whirlwind.  From Helnit I need to scan the Captain Fearless #2 I picked up last weekend at WonderCon :-)  The guy I bought it from actually had two copies!

Offline Bob Hughes

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Re: Holyoke is a Myth...
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2010, 05:32:59 PM »
My ongoing analysis of the Temerson/Holyoke history is at
http://dccomicsartists.com/temerson/temerson.htm
Bert Whitman does the five issues of Crash, Whirlwind and the Helnit Green Hornet before leaving to do the Mr. Ex comic strip.

Speed is produced by a different group of people headed by Maurice Rosenfield, Ulmer's nephew.
So, it's really an Ulmer comic, not a Temerson comic.

Trying to figure out when Rae Herman left Temerson right now.  Not much to work with.