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Author Topic: International Comics topic  (Read 24449 times)

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Offline vaillant

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »
A sequence (image taken from the blog conversazionisulfumetto.files.wordpress.com).
If someone’s interested I have the full story (I own the complete 1941 run of the journal).

Quote
Cute avatar V Smiley
Thanks Yoc. I am very affectioned to Craveri. When Jacovitti, as a boy, sent his work to the redaction in Rome, Craveri said: "What are you waiting? Put him at work!". He was a great man, besides being a real giant in the pre-war comics scene here in Italy, and he almost died in poverty. When he was ill, Jacovitti, contacted by people which were helping him, sent a generous sum of money to help him and his wife.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:04:29 PM by vaillant »

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2012, 03:00:29 PM »

Offline John C

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2012, 04:26:04 PM »
Quick comments so I don't derail the conversation too much...

Nostalgia:  I agree with Paw that it's definitely not the limit.  Mostly, I'm not fond of the books I started out with (early '80s stuff).  Batman led me to All-Star Squadron, which led me to Justice League, which led me to back issues where the JSA appeared, which led me eventually to Golden Age stories.  To me, the lack of homogeneity outweighs the often-thin plots.

Superheroes:  Valliant hit the nail on the head, I think, that "superheroes" aren't a storytelling genre.  Like science-fiction, it's just stage dressing.  At their best, Batman stories are crime comics, Superman stories are horror comics, Spider-Man stories are romance comics, and so on.  The problems just happen to be resolved by a protagonist who's a tiny bit too happy with his body.  When the writers forget this, things are less entertaining.

(A good analogy is probably Star Trek.  The episodes that "work" are Gulliver's Travels in space.  Those that don't are about BEING IN SPACE, all-caps.)

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2012, 02:39:26 AM »
Ah, vaillant, that's so good and I'd love to read the rest of the story.  WW2 has been going for a while and I'm curious to find out how they got there and how they get away (if they do) It's lovely stuff and I find myself more and more these days, enjoying high quality humorous art and storytelling of this type.  I'll have try  to search out some Harry Banger stuff (he did lots for G.G.Swan).  It surprises me that there hasn't been more comment re. D.D. Watkins (perhaps most on here haven't seen enough of his work) because he's considered a bit of a genius, not only in Scotland and his Broons Sunday strips from the early '60's are about as good as this genre gets.

"Valliant hit the nail on the head, I think, that "superheroes" aren't a storytelling genre.  Like science-fiction, it's just stage dressing." John C
That's very true but more with the "super" detective, non-powered characters.  There are so many in comics history who don supersuits when they could do the same work in everyday clothes.  And that cloak wearing thing has always bothered me.  Up a dark alley with a couple of hard men trying to knock your head off, wouldn't a cape just trip you up and hamper all those "moves"?  There is a case to be made for crimefighters donning disguise to protect loved ones and to, hopefully, instill fear into the hearts of evildoers. But Bulldog Drummond; The Saint; The Toff; Rip Kirby; Challengers; Suicide Squad; Secret Six; Fightin 5 etc. never bothered with masks and costumes but still got the job done. 
Actually, there is something wrong with my argument but I can't quite figure out what it is and anyway, I forgot that Bulldog Drummond and his mates in the book, The Black Gang , donned robes and hoods to hide their i/d's from the police.

There is something colourful and exciting about supersuits and masks and all that pallaver.  Another example from Spanish comics, El Capitan Trueno - no mask; El guerrero del Antifaz - masked. (I know he's supposed to be hiding his true i/d for reasons explained at the start of the series but, really, hundreds of issues later?  I'm a huge fan of both and they are both exciting well told comic stories.
Stephen Montgomery

Offline tilliban

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2012, 03:24:59 AM »
Interesting point about that “superheroes are no genre”.
Seems to me that one can classify a certain comic in more than just one category, though.

I love Jacovitti, there were German editions of a few of his COCCO BILL western parodies – haven’t got them, sadly.

And Mordillo I know more for his short animated cartoons. They used to be quite popular in central Europe. Just some years ago they were shown on subway screens while people were waiting for the trains to pull into the station. Hmmm.
Pre-code horror aficionado and propagator of ACE comic books.
I run a number of websites about pre-code horror. Please follow the links.

Offline John C

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2012, 05:55:01 AM »
Actually, there is something wrong with my argument but I can't quite figure out what it is

Look at it this way:  Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?

Actually, I choose to believe that most of these guys aren't "really" dressed like clowns.  It's just the artist's way of making sure you don't forget which character is which.  The same reason Shaggy from Scooby Doo has seemingly been wearing that same ratty green shirt every day for half a century.  (It also resolves contradictions between issues and terrible stories:  The writer got it wrong in hopes of a more entertaining product.)

And genre-wise, keep in mind I am thinking of the comics "at their best."  So yes, it's easier to see that a masked detective is just a detective with a mask, but if you look at everyone's favorite Superman stories, what are they usually about?  Either a mad scientist (Luthor) with an invention threatening the city or a scary, angry or mindless alien come to destroy either the world or Superman himself.  Take away the cape and the powers, and you have a light-hearted horror story, basically.  (There's a huge exception that the Superman of the '70s were almost always involved in coming-of-age stories, either discovering more of Krypton's past or finding his place in the world.  I think the shift works, but a lot of people don't.)

I suspect that's also why Aquaman gets a bad reputation.  The writers consistently want him to be a horror protagonist or (worse) an Arthurian protagonist, and they don't fit.  Why?  Because he's a Western hero, bringing a code of honor to the lawless seas and coastal towns.  Fighting Cthulhu or Moby Dick or the Pacific Garbage Patch just reminds us that he's stuck in the ocean and the writer is forced to remind us (in a very loud, authoritative voice) that the ocean makes up more than three quarters of the Earth's surface, so he is too every bit as important as the Flash...

I think (on topic) that's something that American writers struggle with without knowing it and non-American writers never picked up, struggling instead (as you hint at) issues of whether a person could easily reproduce the acts in the comic exactly as they're portrayed.  The feedback has produced the awful idea that comics are a new kind of mythology (which, no, myths explain stuff) in the States or abandoning (either outright abandonment or parody) the superhero dressing to tell more mundane-looking stories in comic form overseas.

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2012, 08:12:50 AM »
Thanks for those thinks.  But some other ideas and thoughts came to mind on the bus this morning re. your Star Trek analogy, and now your comments on  mad scientists have caused me to ponder further.  This 1st. example isn't about comics but, here in the U.K. we had 2 private detectives (2 of many), Sexton Blake and Dixon Hawke, who each had their regular "pulp" series (I use "pulp" even though they are not pulps as Americans would know them)  and in the '40's, each of these detectives regularly came up against mad scientists, threats to society and in both cases enemies who could be considered to be more than simply splendid human specimens - Marko the Miracle Man and Waldo the Wonderman.  No ordinary bank robberies here more infernal plots and machinery and almost superhuman wrongdoing.  Then again, a prose writer doesn't have the same problem with the reader forgetting who the protagonists are as is necessary in a superhero comic.
As for Star Trek, not being the biggest fan, my preferences are for ships in space, cloaking devices, strange new worlds, much the same as I read in Honor Harrington or The Lost Fleet or McDevitts empty universe books or strange alien artifacts, preferably with extra dimensions inside.  There regularly seemed to be too much soul searching and giant hands in space for me.  That's probably why I prefer Babylon 5 to a lot of Star Trek.

"Look at it this way:  Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?" John C
Love it.

Of course, a couple of those guys are dressed like clowns, deliberately, well, jesters and the like.  Not forgetting.........................TA-DA,  The Crimson Clown.  Great name, daft costume, exciting stories.  Just as well there has never been a comics adaptation.
Stephen Montgomery

Offline John C

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2012, 04:27:51 PM »
I actually used Star Trek figuring that Kirk and Spock would be pretty iconic, not that it's the best science-fiction ever.  But if you pick a random episode, I think you'll find that the episodes that are almost entirely satire (planets of Nazis, planets of 1920s gangsters, the post-atomic Cold War planet where Kirk flips out because they're mispronouncing the United States Constitution) are enjoyable even when they're outright stupid, whereas the episodes that try to be smart or unique (planet of witches, explaining the Greek gods as aliens, android takeovers) don't ever seem to hit the mark.

The same generally goes for the other shows in the franchise, too.  Deep Space Nine worked because it tried really hard to fit the mold of poking our world.  Voyager...cast women and called it a day, as far as I could tell, and I still can't believe it lasted seven years.

Babylon 5 was a different animal entirely, being more or less a hundred-ish hour movie inspired by Babylonian myth.  A shame Crusade got canned.  The second season scripts I've seen floating around were far better than the stuff that made it to air.

As for prose, the other advantages are that you can have a longer lead time, don't need to worry about how long it'll take to draw, and can take the plot (almost) as far out as you want.  If you had to push out a couple of book per month on these characters, you'd probably get the same repeating plots that magically restore the status quo at the end.

Funny thing, since we're picking at stuff, though.  I always find it amazing that, of all the movements for "realism" I've seen over the years, nobody has ever touched the two most absurdly unrealistic aspects of the setting.  The secret identity is a terrible idea, since framing you is trivial among the "due process" problems and concealment problems.  And no sane group of "best people in the world" would waste an afternoon every week sitting around a conference table and "training."

I really just marvel (no pun intended) every time I pick up a Justice League book and see Batman or Aquaman in some sort of sparring match with the other heroes.  I like to imagine the scene they didn't show, where he says something like, "well, I spend sixteen hours a day fighting maniacs, skulking around alleys, and dodging bullets, but sure, I can waste half a day doing exactly those same things with you instead for fun while my home burns to the ground.  But only if we can vote on something irrelevant afterward like where to hang the Giant Kayak of Doom."

It's possible, though, that I like comics for different reasons than most people...

Offline narfstar

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2012, 07:40:14 PM »
"Look at it this way:  Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?" John C
Love it.

Yeah but which would you rather watch on a big screen tv  ;)

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2012, 09:15:20 AM »
"The secret identity is a terrible idea, since framing you is trivial among the "due process" problems and concealment problems. " John C

I suppose that's true except, there have been some strange legal results from English and Scottish courts in the last few years (Scotland has a different legal system from England, also a different education system) and I don't want to go into this sort of stuff in public - too serious.  Surely the rationale in the secret i/d - alter ego thingy is to avoid the bad guys, or the polis, if you are one of the bad guys, getting at those close to you, or getting you if you are the miscreant.  Why bankrobbers wear balaclavas etc.

"I really just marvel (no pun intended) every time I pick up a Justice League book and see Batman or Aquaman in some sort of sparring match with the other heroes.  I like to imagine the scene they didn't show, where he says something like, "well, I spend sixteen hours a day fighting maniacs, skulking around alleys, and dodging bullets, but sure, I can waste half a day doing exactly those same things with you instead for fun while my home burns to the ground.  But only if we can vote on something irrelevant afterward like where to hang the Giant Kayak of Doom." John C
Excellent.  Mind, in the early JLA, that sort of thing never bothered me because it wasn't realistic, just some colourful entertainment.  Now though, when it's all so serious and (supposed to be) realistic - EH?  How can they be bothered.  Maybe they don't do that anymore.  It's been a few years since I read a JLA comic.
As for t.v. s.f., you'll have to take a look at the ancient BBC kids serials, Pathfinders In Space/Mars/Venus written by Malcolm Hulke and Eric Paice 1960 & 61.  Dodgy sets, missed cues, duff effects but great entertainment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX0UG_H4QOA
Stephen Montgomery

Offline John C

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2012, 01:38:00 PM »
What really nags me about secret identities is, for lack of a better word, the "Green Lantern Principle."  Heroes are fearless and honest...except that they're terrified to put their real names to their actions and lie about it pathologically.

I support the right to remain anonymous for the average person, but when that involves violence and assisting the authorities, it seems more trouble than it's worth.  Court cases will get thrown out, because there's no arresting officer to verify that the suspect's rights were protected.  The masked identity can be easily faked for the public.  A lot of technology can see through the mask.

But you're right, when I'm reading the older stories, I don't think anything of it, because it's just part of the setting.  It's only a problem when the writer spends time either mocking or "fixing" the unrealistic aspects of older comics--usually things that don't need fixing, like giving some hero a reason to use his powers responsibly--that I start looking at how even weirder it looks for heroes to collect trophies, build secret fortresses, and elect leaders, and that part is still taken as an article of faith.

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2012, 10:46:17 AM »
Off topic but I have to correct the error I made re. Pathfinders in Space.  This wasn't a BBC serial, rather it was on ITV (the commercial channel)  and made by ABC, a part of ITV.  The company was run by the cinema chain, ABC.  Perhaps of no importance to many on here but if some British fans stumbled on such a glaring mistake, I'd get letters.


"But you're right, when I'm reading the older stories, I don't think anything of it, because it's just part of the setting.  It's only a problem when the writer spends time either mocking or "fixing" the unrealistic aspects of older comics--usually things that don't need fixing, like giving some hero a reason to use his powers responsibly--that I start looking at how even weirder it looks for heroes to collect trophies, build secret fortresses, and elect leaders, and that part is still taken as an article of faith."  John C.
Yes, you're right.  And that was then, this is now.  But the old adage still apples - if it's not broken, don't fix it.  I realise things are supposed to move with the times but I'm not sure the whole idea of superheroes is anything other than silly when they are involved in such modern recognisable worlds, with so much serious "realism".  Even updating traditional, non-superhero franchises can be at the least embarrasing.  When DC Thomson decided to overhaul The Broons in The Sunday Post, they brought in some contentious issues and some of the humour from this incredibly popular strip went away. Mind you, they got a lot of publicity, so perhaps the publishers were happy.   Heaven only knows what deleterious effects would would have occurred had someone decided to update Tintin with mobile phones, personal problems, orientation insecurities etc.  It's simply beautifully done, exciting, humourous fun and entertainment as it is.  (I haven't seen the film, so maybe they have).

Stephen Montgomery

Offline John C

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2012, 01:38:50 PM »
I realise things are supposed to move with the times but I'm not sure the whole idea of superheroes is anything other than silly when they are involved in such modern recognisable worlds, with so much serious "realism".  Even updating traditional, non-superhero franchises can be at the least embarrasing.

I wonder if that's the skill and leanings of the people doing the work, though.  I mean, look how many times we hear that Warner wants to reboot the Superman franchise as something "darker."  That doesn't serve the character well at all, and it's guaranteed to produce a mediocre movie.

Your mention of Tintin's (thankfully hypothetical) insecurities is a big part of that.  I know everybody goes through times where they question themselves, but something writers don't seem to realize is that someone who does that all the time isn't interesting at all.

Still, there's a ring of truth to obsolescence.  I don't think it's really true in a permanent sense (I hope not, at least), but western culture has become more blindly authoritative.  Where superheroes were once social activists and super-muckrakers, the Comics Code turned them into police deputies.  I apologize for edging too political in advance, but I can easily see an ambivalence to superheroes in a world that still cheers the release of the Pentagon Papers but wants to crush Wikileaks.

How does a character balance the need to do the right thing where the common wisdom seems to be that acting your conscience is some sort of neo-fascism?  It's a hard question, but it's a series I'd love to read.

Offline narfstar

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2012, 04:16:48 PM »
from elsewhere I had not luck

Gary Kertz' daughter Sheri Roll is looking for copies of her father's
work. He appears to have worked for the Disney studio in the US,
though his work has apparently only been published outside the US.
Here is inducks' index for him:

http://coa.inducks.org/creator.php?c=Gary+Kertz&c1=date

inducks thinks he may be the same person listed as Gary Kurtz

http://coa.inducks.org/creator.php?c=GKu&c1=date

Can anyone hook her up with copies of any of these stories or dealers
who can supply her with copies?

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2012, 02:28:58 AM »
As there are Portuguese, French and German comics on the your links, you're increasing the chances of finding examples.  However, I've had a quick search and come up with nothing but there are so many shops all over Europe which stock the Ducks that something must show up.  I always look here as early as possible when searching for older stuff:-
http://stores.ebay.com/bdverdeau?_trksid=p4340.l2563
If anything were to turn up, remember JVJ is in Paris and might be able to help.
Stephen Montgomery

Offline paw broon

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Re: International Comics topic
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2012, 11:30:59 AM »
Back to Vaillant's question re ww2, naziism etc.  in case some of you haven't seen this, here's some Marten Toonder material from that period:-
http://lambiek.net/dutchcomics/1940.htm

And here's a link to a Tom Poes page.  Surely one of the great strips of its type and up there with Rupert Bear.
http://striptekenaar.weblog.nl/geen-categorie/de-makers-van-de-tom-poes-dagstrip/

Lambiek on Rupert and Bestall :- 
http://www.lambiek.net/artists/b/bestall.htm
(very difficult to find examples of the Rupert strip as copyright is tightly guarded by Express newspapers)

As this an international section, perhaps we should be taking a look at old Dutch strips and comics - so much to enjoy.
And what about all those French recits complets and pocket libraries?
And the huge amount of Spanish comics material, some of it e.g. El Capitan Truano; El Guerrero del Antifaz; El Jabato being of excellent quality and highly entertaining.
Or is this me being selfish about my own passions?
Stephen Montgomery