Art Spotting in general

[JVJ (RIP)]

He wasn't exactly a "quick study", Yoc,
he had the gene and just needed to focus it and learn some names.

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[Yoc]

Ok.  I'm still just as happy for him Jim.
If I have any of the gene it's as recessive as my hair line.

[bchat]

I agree that quite a bit of memory is involved, but if someone has the desire to learn and is properly motivated, then they can learn how to identify (or least voice their opinion on) an uncredited story.  If a person can tell the difference between a circle and a square, then they can learn, over time, how to tell the difference between one artist and another.

I would LOVE for you to be right, bchat. I rarely see any evidence of it. When I met Tilliaban, he was already extrapolating the few Ace artists I'd identified for him into naming or trying to name the artists on other books. After a few hours it became evident that he didn't need me for anything except putting a name to a style. So there's the exception that proves the rule. Keep it up, Tillman!

I've been doing that for decades for all kinds of people in all kinds of venues, but I've yet to have someone tell me that my IDing, say, Warren Kremer on an Ace book has led to a mass of entries on GCD for other Kremer work in other issues or titles. It SHOULD! Studying a story by Kremer SHOULD lead to understanding his style (at least at that time) and to more attributions - IF you're right.

Tilliban is a perfect example of what I'm saying:  Any person who is motivated enough & has the patience to learn "the basics" can do this, or (again) at least reach a point where they're willing to voice their opinion on uncredited artwork.  

If people aren't interested in identifying something that, for example, an artist like Warren Kremer may have drawn, no amount of credits on GCD is going to change that.  Additionally, not everybody thinks or learns in the same way, so one person's way of teaching may be the perfect way for one person to learn from and yet, at the same time, be a nightmare to understand for someone else.  Sure, someone may take to it rather quickly, but that's probably due to how that individual thinks rather than an indication of what people are able to learn.  

What I'm trying to say (I think ... I've been fighting a headache all day) is that it's not that people can't learn this or that only certain people are capable of learning "art spotting", it may simply be that some people that want to learn don't know how to start.  An "Artist Identification Lesson File" (adding the "Lesson" to be more clear what the file would be used for) makes an easy & quick starting point on the road to education, and at the same time, someone can figure-out if this is even something they want to do.  From there, a person can contact others, check-out websites like GCD, a blog devoted to individual artists and so on.

[JVJ (RIP)]

Sorry about the headache, bc,
I know what that's like. Don't envy you a bit.

And I still hope that you're right. Outside of Tilliban, in 40 years I've not seen anyone pick up art styles and use them to ID other work. John Benson does it a little, but mostly on small sub-set of artists. I've NEVER been able to "train" anyone. And wouldn't try. I personally think it's pointless, but that's just my opinion. Your opinion is that people can learn. We'll have to agree to disagree.

As I said, you have high hopes and want you to be right. I'll be patient and wait and see what happens. Let's start by asking the group how many of you WANT to learn to be Art Spotters?

Simple question and a base point for figuring out what works and what doesn't.

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[narfstar]

I see both sides. I don't know why certain artists jump out at me that have not been frequently identified and others look more generic to me. Why when I saw a Boris Karloff and knew that I had seen that style on Prof. Harbinger and I was right it was Mel Crawford. I think it is a mixture of both talent and exposure. With enough exposure more talent may show be developed. I will be starting an artists files on GAC to aid with art id.

[tilliban]

Wha…?!
I’m the exception now? Thought I was the rule.
Thanks for the flowers, Jim.
I’m just stubborn enough to want to know and give credit to artists.
I am highly motivated to do so because I strive to be a pre-code horror expert.
It’s just about pushing the right buttons, see?
Or to be a nerd fascinated by graphic art.
Aren’t we all?

And, yeah, I wanna be an art spotter!
Do I get to ride shotgun - with Jim at the wheel?
 

[JVJ (RIP)]

You are the exception and the rule, Tillman,
You have the ability to discern what constitutes the "styles" of a lot of different artists. That's rare.

As narfstar says, he has a few people who jump out at him and he can always recognize. I think that's true of most fans. They guys they like, certain very stylized artists - they can recognize them. Fletcher Hanks is a good example. Lots of people recognize Fletcher Hanks. But how many recognize Frank Thomas - just as stylized and in some of the same books? How about Lew Glanzman?

I agree with bchat that probably most people will be able to learn to recognize their favorite artist if they work at it. But take a look at the All For Love V2:3 scan and see if you can see the Sub-Mariner artist Carl Pfeufer in there? And Joe Simon, Mr. Capt. America, is penciling one of those stories. Learning one artist at one point in his career will probably not be enough.

You, on the other hand, seem to pick up the core of what makes a Jim McLaughlin, as we discovered in Paris, and were able to walk with me back to his earliest, very atypical. work. And you could SEE it. I could tell from your eyes that you really GOT IT. That was pure joy on my part, because, since that day in 1968 when I showed my friend Pat Price a copy of All-Star Western #99 with a Frank Frazetta story in it, asked him excitedly "Do you KNOW who this is?" and was told "Wally Wood?", I haven't had too many people give me the right answers.

ps. I haven't put the Ace books in the mail. I'll go pack them right now and maybe I'll catch the postman.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Yoc]

Wow, it must have been a thrill for both of you guys.  Wish I was there to see it!

[JVJ (RIP)]

I can't speak for Tillman, but I certainly enjoyed myself. Meeting him was a grand birthday present.

ps. Tillman, I did not catch the mailman, but I've got the list of books and will pull and pack them ASAP. Out Monday, I promise this time.

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[srca1941]

As narfstar says, he has a few people who jump out at him and he can always recognize. I think that's true of most fans. They guys they like, certain very stylized artists - they can recognize them. Fletcher Hanks is a good example. Lots of people recognize Fletcher Hanks. But how many recognize Frank Thomas - just as stylized and in some of the same books? How about Lew Glanzman?

(Raises hand for both Frank Thomas and Lew Glanzman)

I know I have a different method for spotting than you do Jim. I see a familiar style from an artist that I'm not well versed in, and I first connect it to what story(ies) I've seen it in rather than a name. I'm not always good with names offhand, but I'm good with my visual memory. I’ll see a familiar treatment of a face, character pose, panel composition, or some other such trait, and it will click with me that I’ve seen it before. Artists with more distinct styles (like Frank Thomas) I'm more likely to be able to put a name to offhand, but often I connect to a story that I've previously IDed, I check my notes, and I assign credit from there.

-Eric

[JVJ (RIP)]

I'm half your way and half "my" way, Eric,
My example of remembering Sam Glankoff working at Parents is exactly how you do it. When I looked at the All for Love, however, I knew all the artists from memory. Weird, but to each his own. Good on you for Glanzman and Thomas. I hope you'll continue to share what you know and teach me some new guys. That's the Christmas present I keep looking for.

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[narfstar]

Hey Jim how about art spotting in All For Love v3#3? I am especially interested in the cover artist on this. There is "something" about the cover that I find has impact.

[JVJ (RIP)]

Not an easy one, narf.

All of these are so cavalierly done - very quick, minimal pencils. For What It's Worth...

Cover: It looks most like Joe Simon pencils to me, but it might be Carl Pfeufer with Simon inks. I really don't know.

Cinderella is Jilted - I'm thinking Giordano is pencilling this, but I'm going by some faint hints of poses as the inker is so bad. I first I thought it might be Colletta, but it's not. Perhaps a hasty Pfeufer ink job? Again, in the end, I just don't know.

Take Me Back - If you made me take a stab I'd say John Prentice pencils and Joe Simon inks. The pay for these stories was historically LOW. After the Atlas implosion, ANY work was better than none and a lot of good artists hacked stuff out as fast as they could, just to make the rent. Simon was the editor here so his hand is everywhere. Prentice was an old friend and would get a preferential place in line. If it's not JP, it's someone swiping him.

Never Leave Me - Ted Galindo (best guess) and Simon inks again.

Lonely Goddess - Mr. Bob Powell pencils and inks.

Mad About Mitch - Carl Pfeufer and Simon (best guess) inks

A perfect example of why the date of the comic is EVERYTHING in art spotting.

[narfstar]

Thanks Jim.  I guess you do not find the cover as good as I do. There is just something about it. I am not good at any of those artists. I can sometimes spot Giordano war by planes and subs. One BIG problem I have is I will start seeing some of a particular artists in too many things. Maybe because of my limited clues. For instance, noses tend to allow me to recognize Bill Molno. I start seeing hints of his style too much. Fightin' Airforce 39
http://goldenagecomics.co.uk/admin.php?sid=6568ffe924838141ec2cb05031c21001
has two signed Nicolas and Alascia stories. I see some Molno in the other three stories. The pencil/ink thing really complicates matters.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I don't have access to that link, narf,
and that issue of Fightin' Air Force isn't posted for downloading. When you get past 1960, my interest in the artists wanes considerably. The Atlas Implosion did away with the "middle class" in comic book art and I'm generally focused on the pre-Implosion guys. When Dick Giordano starts looking like the work in the All For Love that I thought might be his, it's time for me to forget about it.

The only way I can even see him is in the staging. The guy looking into the panel on page 2 panel 1 and a similar pose on page 4 panel 3 and the man in the suit's posture in page 4 panel 2. There's not much that the inker (might be Eugene Hughes?) has left for us to find. Spotting an artist by planes and subs leaves a lot of uncovered territory. It will only work in a very limited number of instances and genres.

You are SO right that "the pencil/ink thing really complicates matters."

Sorry I was so little help on the cover. Not being able to identify it makes no judgement on the quality - just on my knowledge.

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