- +

Author Topic: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...  (Read 8834 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Fox worked for DC myth
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2011, 08:29:11 PM »
Hi Drusilla,
That old chestnut that Fox was a savvy accountant for DC has been around for ages and repeated in The Dreamer.  Thankfully KenQ's wonderful find of the DC vs Fox transcript takes from mouths of the very people involved under oath evidence that Fox never worked for DC.  He worked from the same Building but on a different floor.
You can read all about it in the latest AlterEgo #101 or on KenQ's blog here -  http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html

It's a lot to read but PACKED with wonderful first hand stories from the birth of the GA superhero.

-Yoc

Digital Comic Museum

Re: Fox worked for DC myth
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2011, 08:29:11 PM »

Drusilla lives!

  • Guest
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2011, 10:58:43 AM »
Fox never worked for DC. He published an Astrology magazine which was distributed by Independent News.  That's how he got his hands on Action Comics sales figures, looking through the rate cards for his own magazine.

I think Feldstein might be your best bet.

Hi Drusilla,
That old chestnut that Fox was a savvy accountant for DC has been around for ages and repeated in The Dreamer.  Thankfully KenQ's wonderful find of the DC vs Fox transcript takes from mouths of the very people involved under oath evidence that Fox never worked for DC.  He worked from the same Building but on a different floor.
You can read all about it in the latest AlterEgo #101 or on KenQ's blog here -  http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html

It's a lot to read but PACKED with wonderful first hand stories from the birth of the GA superhero.

-Yoc


Ha ha!  You guys got me there on that one. :P :) 

Seems that Nicky Wright book is alittle out of date!

Well, I did say that the history of the early comic biz is a dark and muddled place didn't I.  And IMO the full weight of that statement is definitely something to think about when you consider that it takes court testimony given under oath by those involved on a somewhat unrelated matter to piece together the truth as to who's who and such.  ;)

And thanks for the link Yoc, looks interesting. 

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2011, 04:10:17 PM »
Ken's  blog is Packed with amazing reading D.
Well worth the time to read.

Offline David Lawrence

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: 0
    • Glass House Graphics Writer Page
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 02:50:33 PM »
Old thread...don't know if anybody is paying attention, but...

The photo...Victor Fox & Celestine Fuchs...is interesting because Fuchs is a likely candidate for the original Fox surname.  Though Victor was born in England his parents were born in Lithuania, so the surname was anglicized during their time there before coming to the US.

I think that the Fox family may have had relatives in Fall River MA, where they first settled in the US.

But I can find no more info about that photo.  It seems a longshot...though if it turned out it was taken in Fall River I would reconsider.

Eisner cartooned people up for the Dreamer, but what is there is generally consistent with descriptions of Fox and of the statistics in his draft records.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 10:11:19 PM »
Hi David,
It would be amazing if something more could be found. 
Not long after my last reply I stumbled across a goldmine in an old EC Comics story!
From the last issue of EC's Modern Love #8 - and the last story - 'The Love Story To End All Love Stories' by  Al Feldstein.  In it EC does a parody of the romance comic glut on the market and takes some shots at what clearly are Victor Fox as well as Simon and Kirby.  You can see it at the follow link (scroll down half a page past all the covers)
http://thegoldenagesite.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/ecs-romance-titles-1949-1950-artwork-by.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PB-O1yT5EYg/SZYpu0kFs5I/AAAAAAAAevY/SXaRybSnXFE/s400/lovestory_01.jpg
The same story is talked about in this blog entry here (again scroll down a while to see the entry) - http://eddiecampbell.blogspot.ca/2011/12/m-y-copy-of-michelle-nolans-book-love.html
And here's a preview of the Fox character from the story (called Mr Wolf)-
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PpkGihAe2pw/TuGNiA8GRBI/AAAAAAAAHBA/TlJeVOjIz0A/s400/love5.jpg
This depiction is much closer to the descriptions of Victor Fox that I found out there.  Especially the horn rim glasses which Eisner never used in Dreamer graphic novel.

It would be great if an actual photo were to someday show but for now this is the image of Fox I'll carry in my mind. 
-Yoc

Offline David Lawrence

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: 0
    • Glass House Graphics Writer Page
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »
Oh god...that is brilliant!  And that's certainly got to be a Feldstein caricature of Fox.

I've been researching Fox for the last couple of months.  I really got started because I'm such a Jack Kirby and he's such an influence on my writing, and the constant references to Fox as mysterious and such got me wondering.

I discovered that to some degree I duplicated research already done for the Blue Beetle Companion, which I bought just for the Fox info, but I think I've found some stuff that nobody else has pieced together yet.  I'll probably put together an article on him in the next couple months.

It's amazing that a man who was so many times involved in legal tangling...the shipping frauds of the early 1920s, the stock fraud of 1929, the DC lawsuit of 1939, assorted legal troubles in the 1940s could completely elude the camera.

I have found photos of his family, though I'm not sure about posting because they are from a copyrighted work.  I think I know where I can get a photo of Fox...but it likely won't be good, only a headshot, and the cost is a little prohibitive.  But I'm thinking about it.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 08:57:55 AM »
Hi David,
I would truly LOVE to read what you've found and see any pictures!

Hehehe wasn't that a fun story?  I'm glad I could share that with you.  I used some panels as part of the archive Phabox and I recently released.
The Phantom Lady Archive v2 - The Fox Years.  We covered as much as we could find on Victor Fox who really has fallen though the cracks of history.  A dubious character for sure but I'd love to know more about him.  The Blue Beetle Companion was the only source to claim background info on Fox's name change and family ancestory.  I went digging on the recently release NYC 1940 census and found three Victor Foxes - none of them our man though.

I found one court case from the 40's that I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere else.  An Oct 1944 court martial.  His part ownership in Cornwall Shipbuilding Company and testimony for the prosecution filled a hole in his history nobody else has talked about afaik.   I had to give up my Fox search so we could finally release the long long delayed collection.

Check it out in the Fox bio in our PL collection - http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/index.php?dlid=20074.  I have a bibliography at the end of it.
The direct link to the Fox bio is here - http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/preview/index.php?did=19663&page=18

Offline David Lawrence

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: 0
    • Glass House Graphics Writer Page
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 11:31:17 AM »
You're going to laugh but Fox sort of reminds me of my grandfather, though on a much grander scale.  He likewise was the son of orthodox Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, Hungary in his case, and bounced from scheme to scheme.  I think I sort of understand Fox.  Don't necessarily approve, but I get his thinking.

I've seen news reports of the 1944 court case but not the court documents.  The 1920 case dragged on for years and apparently set some kind of important precedent in maritime law.  I've found Fox in the 1940 census.  For some reason I had some difficulty but his WW2 draft record helped me find it.  1900, 1910, 1920 as well.  1930 I haven't been able to find.

I know the Fox family was in Nottingham by 1891, courtesy of the 1891 English census.  A list of surnames in Vilna...their hometown in Lithuania...lists no Fox, but does have Fuks (kind of funny, don't you think?) and Fuchs.  No specific info though, just a surname list.

Fox's name at birth was Samuel Victor Jacob Fox.  Family was in Fall River by 1900.  Another Fox family from Russia lived 500 feet up the road from them, leading me to believe that despite reports that it was mother Bessie who had family there it was actually father Joseph.

There are photos of Joseph, Bessie and a some of Victor's sisters in Meryle Secrest's biography of Stephen Sondheim because...wait for it...Victor Fox is the UNCLE of Stephen Sondheim!!!  Though he rates little more than a mention a fair amount of family background is presented in a couple of pages in the first chapter.  For some reason it makes me imagine a Kirby influenced ASSASSINS, with Red Skull, Dr. Doom & Darkseid replacing Booth, Oswald & Charlie Guiteau.

I'm trying to figure out how to contact Secrest to see if she is willing to share any info or put me in touch with her sources.  However, the book is 15 years old and her sources were elderly even then, so...

It's all sort of funny when you think about it.  Fox has a reputation...deserved no doubt...for being a thief.  Yet Martin Goodman ripped off Joe Simon & Jack Kirby...and he got Jack again in the 60s.  We all know what DC did to Siegel and Shuster.  Could Fox have been any worse?  And had Fox not so totally rubbed Simon the wrong way couldn't he have ended up publishing Captain America?  And how might that single super-star in his hands altered the fate of his company, the history of comics, and his own reputation?

As to a photo of Fox himself...unless he somehow got an exemption denied to everyone else in the USA...there HAS to be one attached to his passport records!  Unfortunately only records before 1925 are available online so they have to be ordered.  They are public records and can be purchased...but all you get are photocopies, the snapshot attached is very small, and the cost is steep at $150.

Still, if we can gather up a handful of curious people and pool the costs.  I've attached pre-1925 passport images for Victor's mother Bessie, to give you an idea what we might hope for.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:14:22 AM by Yoc »

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1308
  • Karma: 1
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 03:34:15 PM »
I don't have anything to add.  I just want to mention that I'd totally read Crimes by Cats.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 04:45:46 PM »
Wow!  Thanks for all the info David!
And I'd be willing to help with costs if you can find a group to help pay for the photo.
Alter-Ego magazine might be interested in something like this.

Hehehe, I love that alternate history idea of Capt. America at Fox.  
"I want an explosion on the third panel of each page dammit!  I don't care if Bucky is asleep in the tent - Blow it up!"

So that photo with Celestine Fuchs - it might well be The Victor Fox...  
I stumbled across it in a simple Google Image Search but it didn't come with any real info.

--

I'm guessing you likely saw the NY Times page from November 1, 1917 right?  
Debt decision again World Costume Corp and Victor S Fox vs Mr I. Eisfeidt for $321.95.
Also found with Google search.  I have a pdf of the page if needed.

Offline David Lawrence

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: 0
    • Glass House Graphics Writer Page
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 11:58:48 PM »
That one made me laugh.  Pennies compared to the debts he'd ring up later!

I'm kind of waiting till my taxes are done till I lay out any cash...freelance was spotty so I didn't pay quarterlies, but I'm afraid I might owe a bit.

Phantom Lady book looks neat.  Makes me wonder what Freddie Wertham would have said about the last book I worked on!

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj9/o0oBoogieo0o/469004_10150606815688034_128774243033_9447977_508659901_o.jpg

I've attached a pdf of the first chapter of the Sondheim bio to this post...Fox family info on pages 7 & 8, if I remember correctly.

Offline David Lawrence

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: 0
    • Glass House Graphics Writer Page
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2013, 12:01:10 AM »
Well, I thought I attached a pdf but apparently not.  Giving it another try but not sure now if it will work.  Pdf listed as allowed file type so I'm not sure if it's the site or me.

Offline narfstar

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1674
  • Karma: 74
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 03:42:47 AM »
It worked

Offline MarkWarner

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 190
  • Karma: 1
    • Comic Book Plus
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 10:07:23 AM »
You wanna picture of Victor Fox .. how mucha you play me for picture of Victor Fox???

I am just talking about "Yoc's picture"

Which can be found here

https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090756356877218?banner=pwa

First thing is Fuchs=Fox. So the two are related. I think there are two Victors father and son???

Exhibit a
Vic and Celestine Fox
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090925324881234?banner=pwa
He grows up to be ???
Exhibit b
Vic Fox
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091291773352562?banner=pwa

Exhibit c
And then there is another Victor around but he looks too old

Victor & Aurea ?? _Treasure Island_Jun 15, 1940
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091233380527458?banner=pwa


Exhibit d
Here they are when they were younger with Celestine
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090907474451330?banner=pwa


Anyway there are quite a few photos (including "Yocs") from Margaret Kearns

https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449?banner=pwa

And they were put up by Larry Donohue

https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums?banner=pwa

I hope this helps people sort it one or another I am confused now

Regards,

Mark
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 10:27:12 AM by MarkWarner »

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12963
  • Karma: 32
  • "Say cheese!"
Re: Looking for a Victor Fox photo or drawing...
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2013, 11:03:15 AM »
Thanks very much David.  
Not much at all on Victor in the Sondheim bio but still an interesting bit of history to fill in some blanks.

Wow, thanks as well Mark!  David, do these names match anything in the census materials you found?