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Author Topic: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner  (Read 35784 times)

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Offline JVJ (RIP)

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 09:27:52 PM »
Now I see your point, narf.
Of course. In comics it is exactly the same, isn't it? If a book's been restored, it can't compare with the "value" of an unrestored one. My point has always been that if we put a premium on white pages in original comics, shouldn't we try to strive for that "ultimate goal" in the scans? And it is my belief that NO comic book artist WANTED his or her art to be printed on yellowing pulp paper. That seems to be a nostalgia/fan thing that somehow (to me, anyway) defies logic. I know it's real, I'm just incapable of comprehending WHY, if we prize white pages in real comics, we don't prize them in scans.

So shoot me...

Peace, Jim (|:{>
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 11:23:10 PM by JVJ »
Peace, Jim (|:{>

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2011, 09:27:52 PM »

Offline narfstar

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2011, 08:10:29 AM »
I would say you are in the majority Jim. Yes there are us fanboys who like the "natural" look. I also love the perfect look. When I do edits it is mostly straightening. Thanks to Snard that will be a lot easier now. But I admit that on some comics I do brighten them because that is what people like.

Offline rangerhouse

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2011, 04:21:16 PM »
No on the Yellower JVJ never.
With me so far its if I got a pretty rare issue or I've got good paper quality I will always go for the white.  I always feel like I'm on some sort of crusade to preserve and restore issue.

If I got a bad copy or no time,  I still run some kind of filter on it.  Brighten it up a little.

Scanners just pickup so much so sometimes I think scanned copy doesn't look like what I just read anyways..   Looks like someone urinated on the book and now with strange spots I never noticed before.   

So I think in the end its the scanners choice for sure with the most important point of getting all this stuff scanned before it turns to dust..   

Offline Ami_GFX

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2011, 07:46:51 PM »
Interesting. As a kid, I loved comics for what they were, cheap thrills, mass produced art and story telling available almost anywhere for very little money. I lost interest when they started going upscale and taking themselves too seriously. Better paper and having to go to a comic book store to buy them put me off. The only comic book store I ever really liked was Gary Arlington's San Francisco Comic Book Company. I never liked the whole collector/comic speculator mentality. I bought comics to read and enjoy and, yes, it was nice to have them in nice condition, but it wasn't necessary.

I don't mind scans of comics that have yellow pages as long as the scan is good quality. I like the touch of reality. I was looking at some digital silver age Marvels recently and I would much prefer a scan of the real comic with all the ads and letters and imperfections.

One of my scans (Jungle 153) looks better to me than the original book. The scan seems to just show the art and not the imperfections of the actual book. It might be just my reaction to the smell of the old newsprint which I don't really like. It seems to be a lot worse in comics coming from a humid climate. Most of what I have has been stored in a dry house in the arid southwest since I bought it and doesn't have a strong smell.

I've never quite understood the value placed on a patina. I do metal work and jewlery fabrication and copper and copper alloys all will develop a patina naturally in no time and if you polish them, they will always patina again and if you are in a hurry, there a lots of chemical patina compounds sold just to do instant patinas. If I found a really nice piece of old silver jewelry, my instict would be to polish it and restore it to the condition it was in when it was made but the general mentality of those who deal in such things is that it takes away from the value. I can understand liking a patina look which can be a nice effect but why a piece of antique brass work should be worth so much more if it hasn't been polished in 100 years is beyond me.


Offline larrytalbot

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2011, 10:15:50 PM »
 AMI - I'm in agreement with your opening paragraph. And, I'm surprised some enterprising publisher doesn't go back to the cheaper newsprint to bring the price of comics down a bit.  With today's tight cash climate, that might turn out to be a successful competitive move - might increase sales & pressure other publishers to do the same.  Also, would be nice for comics fans to have more product choice & competetive pricing.

Offline Yoc

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2011, 10:36:59 PM »
I agree Larry. 
I've long thought the move to Baxter, etc paper with super high-end printing wasn't needed and drove the price way higher than I was ever comfortable with paying.  Of course it's been ages since I bought a new book anyways but I know that was a big factor in my stopping.

Offline Kevin Yong

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2011, 07:52:59 AM »
My point has always been that if we put a premium on white pages in original comics, shouldn't we try to strive for that "ultimate goal" in the scans? And it is my belief that NO comic book artist WANTED his or her art to be printed on yellowing pulp paper. That seems to be a nostalgia/fan thing that somehow (to me, anyway) defies logic. I know it's real, I'm just incapable of comprehending WHY, if we prize white pages in real comics, we don't prize them in scans.

I'm halfway in agreement here. I'm sure no artist intended their work to look smudged and discolored from fading pulp paper, and I definitely appreciate it when scanners apply color corrections to neutralize the obvious color cast from the scanned newsprint.

On the other hand, I also prefer it if a comic scan is able to preserve at least a slight background tint or texture from the paper (a very faint grey or off-white?), not because of any sense of nostalgia but for ease of reading onscreen. I feel there's a much harsher contrast in the glowing "white" of an LCD monitor screen than the subtle shades of "white" paper that would be prized in a printed book. (The glare from the glossy paper of modern comics tends to annoy my eyes for similar reasons.)

Obviously, this is not a "right" or "wrong" rule for scanning, it's just how my eyes react to colors onscreen. As they say, your mileage may vary.

-- Kevin

Offline narfstar

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2011, 10:33:15 AM »
I was told that it actually cost more to get a book printed in newsprint than glossy. No idea why but the artist/writer of Sactuary http://www.comics.org/series/28442/ said.

Offline John C

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2011, 04:05:08 PM »
Newsprint probably carries a higher expense because nobody does it.  You need to find a shop that can fit you into its schedule and cover the start-up cost for their plant.  If the industry changed, there'd be contracts that would drive the price to a competitive level, I'm sure.

As for the paper change, since I brought it up, I guess I should quickly run down the list of things I think went wrong when better paper became available.

- The bleed:  Being able to draw to the edge of the paper has provided some innovative panel arrangements, but it's mostly responsible for two-page splash panels that convey nothing and/or inter-panel art that muddies the action.  The splash panels then lead to decompression, the misguided idea that comic books are like movies and the way to show passage of time is to have many panels where people stand around not doing anything interesting (or for continuity of motion--no, no, I get how the pen got to the floor from the table!).

- Faux-collectability:  Sturdier paper suggested the collectors' market by making them an "investment," making it responsible for millions of "gimmick" issues and covers, while anybody with half a brain realized that old comics were worth money because they were hard to maintain.

- Lazy art:  Seems like every time in the last ten years I've opened a book that so much as mentioned outer space, we've Photoshopped the background of at least one panel to use NASA stock.  The effect is invariably jarring, rather than smooth.  A problem with Photoshop, maybe?  Perhaps, but I don't think anybody would try for that kind of "quality" on crappy paper.

- Fussy art:  Along the same lines as satellite pictures of Earth, we all remember the fiasco of Wonder Woman's new costume?  The one that I'm pretty sure already never existed?  My problem with it is that every dang bit of it is covered in scritchy-scratchy filigree.  That sort of detail would never survive to the printed page without modern paper, so no artist would even try it.  And that example only stands in for decades of "constipation lines" on the scrunched-up faces of characters and cross-hatching everywhere.

- Lack of restriction:  It's been said that the Hulk would have been gray or brown, had it not been for the fact that he was impossible to print consistently that way, and I don't think he'd be an icon if he were.  Today, artists (often) don't bother to worry about how something will look to the reader, because "what you see is what you get."  And what you get is a lot of poorly-planned trash.

- Glare:  Like Kevin, reading from glossy paper bothers my eyes and makes it hard to take the entire page in at once, since the glare shifts.

I think that's it...and not to take away from Jim's points, since he's got a different purpose in mind when he reads the scans.

(Now, let's never talk about computer coloring or using standardized fonts for lettering, OK...?)

Offline Ami_GFX

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2011, 01:04:07 PM »
Funny that our local paper that comes out once a week with color printing and is printed on about 4 or 5 comics worth of newsprint at a cost of $1 and it isn't economically feasable to print comics on newsprint??

 :-/

What I really miss in not just the newsprint but the widespread distribution and availibility of comic books. When I was a kid, the spinner racks were everywhere, every supermarket, drug and convenience store sold comics. Now, in the rocky mountain version of small town America where I live, the spinner racks have all disappeared, there are no comic books sold anywhere with the exception of digest size Archies--printed on newsprint at $4 a pop. I have an almost 3 hour drive to the nearest comic book store which will more than likely disappoint me in it's offerings.

And back to the subject of scanning, I got the hp 3970 and, just like I thought, it is a lot faster than the 3670 unless you try to scan at 2400 dpi--it took about 40 minutes to do one comic book cover and the jpeg was 150mbs. The ink dot patterns looked kind of psychedelic when fully magnified. At 200 dpi, it is something like 3 times as fast. I've scanned 2 comics so far and the ratio of straigtening to scanning time is way up. Once it's straight in the bed, the scanning takes no time at all. :)

Offline darwination

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2011, 11:18:03 PM »
I'll just weigh in here shortly in support of the natural look.  Even when they were brand new, these comics pages weren't pure white, and the paper exhibited a pulpy texture.  As a scanner, I feel like I should represent the physical object I'm scanning and not some ideal.  That's not to say I don't do some corrections and that there's not subjective judgments that come into play here but only to say that I'm looking to make a comic look like it did fresh of the newsstand or at least as close as I can get it without distorting the colors too much.  Sure artists may not have been pleased that their work was being reproduced on pulp paper with rough printing methods, but I also believe they probably took some of this into account when producing the original work.  The new re-colorings I see of a lot of golden age comics are truly atrocious. The flat colors and perfectly solid inks in my opinion take something very vital away from the experience.  When you lose all the texture from the pulp paper as well as from the layered printing, the old comics just don't look right.  Similarly, I doubt much of the modern digital, gradient-heavy coloring methods would reproduce well on the old paper...

Call me crazy, but if a page of text is scanned from a pulp I want it to look like it was scanned from a pulp.  If a page of text is scanned from a paperback I want it to look like it came from a paperback.  If it was scanned from a slick page, I want it to look like it came from a slick.  Otherwise every digital book might as well look like something you'd read on a kindle, and I personally much prefer an "authentic" scan that accurately reflects the character of the publication it comes from.  All that said, I do understand tastes vary  O0



Offline rangerhouse

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2011, 05:38:28 PM »
can anyone tell me about a Minolta PS 5000C Book Scanner and if it would work for comic books..  I know, its a face up scanner,  will do jpg,  at least 300 dpi,  ANYONE???

Thanks Rangerhouse

Offline Geo (RIP)

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2011, 10:25:55 PM »
can anyone tell me about a Minolta PS 5000C Book Scanner and if it would work for comic books..  I know, its a face up scanner,  will do jpg,  at least 300 dpi,  ANYONE???

Thanks Rangerhouse

"The PS5000C gives you a fast, safe, cost-effective way to scan, digitize and share the content of your color publications. Books, magazines, scientific manuals, historical materials and artwork can all be preserved and shared in full color, without damage to brittle pages or fragile bindings.

Digital scanning in just 3.4 seconds per 8-1/2” x 11” original lets you scan more documents in less time. You’ll have flexible scanning modes for books and single pages -- and selectable scan resolution from 200 dpi to 600 dpi allows you to match scanning power to the needs of each original.

11.69” x 17.00” scanning area accommodates oversized bound volumes, ledgers, artwork, maps, archival records and other large documents.


Direct PC interface with USB connector and TWAIN driver lets you scan color originals to your computer for use in websites, desktop publishing or Email.


Selectable image modes to fine-tune output for Color Text, Color Photos, Grayscale Text, Grayscale Photos, or Line Art (bitmap for text or line art).


Automatically compensates for page curvature and automatically erases centerline shadows, page borders, and images of fingers holding down pages for scanning.


3D Scanning lets you digitize the images of objects placed on the PS5000C scanning surface."

You sure you got 10K+ (List Price: $11,975.00) to put out for one of these puppies? For what you'd pay for one of those, you could buy a whole lot of other scanners and try each one to find out which one is best for you would be my take on it. By the way, way to pricey for me. As to your original question, yes it should be able to do so.

Geo

« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 10:31:12 PM by Geo »
Filling holes, by ONE book at a time

Offline rangerhouse

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2011, 12:03:48 AM »
I have a chance to purchase a used one at a fraction of that cost..  Thanks for the info Geo..


Offline builderboy

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Re: Scanners, please tell us about your scanner
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2011, 05:46:30 AM »
OMG...a ten THOUSAND dollar scanner? betcha its got seat warmers!  How cool is that? Let us know if you seal the deal, rangerhouse.