Holyoke is a Myth...

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?

But really, narf,
It's not about what "people" want, it's about what's historically accurate. Again, I cite the example of Blue Beetle. Let's do what's right and "people" will figure it out. Honest.

This is why I've been advocating a system that allows for multiple classifications over at the GCD.  We define the facts (who published from what office, who owned, who purchased what from whom, who distributed, under what logos, etc.) and draw associations that let people look things up in different ways.  So you can look for books that are strictly Harvey books, or you can include those books that are associated with Harvey (due to a series of title purchases, for example).  And that would bring in books that are strictly classified somewhere else.  You could even add associations like "falsely linked to" so that people could *find* what they expect (like Narrative, Aviation Press or the Carnahan publishers) while making it clear that there is no real connection (except an art director or a packaging studio, perhaps).  Others have been advocating similar things so I'm hoping that over the course of the next year we'll be able to implement it, or at least start.

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

BTW, I don't think this has been covered already, but does anyone disagree with me that Captain Aero's numbering (v1#7 in the indicia for the first issue) continued from Green Hornet, which ended with #6?  The commonly propagated theory for Captain Aero is that it continued Samson's numbering, which I think is just more fallout from the Holyoke myth.  The first Captain Aero issue was from Helnit, not Holyoke, and Holyoke did not acquire Blue Beetle until several months later.  Blue Beetle #10 was the same month as Captain Aero #1 and the last fox issue (#11) was two months later.  I can't think of any reason that a Helnit title would continue the numbering of a Fox title.  Especially when there's a canceled Helnit title with exactly the right number available.  Someone just conflated Holyoke and Fox and grabbed a six-issue series that ended at more-or-less the right time (half a year before Fox called it quits!)

The Harvey (Family Comics, Inc.) Green Hornet started half a year later.  Whether it managed to also get the mailing permit somehow (Goodman apparently managed that with Comedy and Daring) or whether they just started with #7 to avoid confusion among readers, I don't know.  But I don't think that Harvey's series, from several months later, is reason to assume that Helnit didn't recycle those numbers for Captain Aero.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.

I agree that it's best to record what is there and, peripherally, indicate real or possible connections. How is the multiple connectivity search mechanism accessible in GCD? Or is it in the planning stages?

Yes, of course Capt. Aero came from Green Hornet, just as Cat-Man came from Crash. I thought that was self-evident. I mean, at the time of Captain Aero #1, no one even knew that Harvey was going to exist, let alone take up the numbering sequencing of Green Hornet.

Revisit the pdf link as I've added Crash #5, too, which for some reason I omitted in the first version.

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[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.

Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-)  But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that.  I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)

I agree that it's best to record what is there and, peripherally, indicate real or possible connections. How is the multiple connectivity search mechanism accessible in GCD? Or is it in the planning stages?

Planning stages.  However, my talk at WonderCon last weekend may have netted us a search developer so I'm hoping he decides to indeed join the project and work on our long-awaited search overhaul.  There's also some back-end database work to be done to support this, which is high on my personal list of priorities.  But a few other GCD priorities come first (like it would be nice to be able to delete things- that's kind of a glaring omission right now).

Yes, of course Capt. Aero came from Green Hornet, just as Cat-Man came from Crash. I thought that was self-evident. I mean, at the time of Captain Aero #1, no one even knew that Harvey was going to exist, let alone take up the numbering sequencing of Green Hornet.

Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places.  As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.

Revisit the pdf link as I've added Crash #5, too, which for some reason I omitted in the first version.

Thanks, will do!
-henry

[JVJ (RIP)]

Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc.  Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.

Didn't you mean 9/1941, Henry?

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[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc.  Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.

Didn't you mean 9/1941, Henry?

Yes I did :-)   Just double-checked to make sure there wasn't a typo or anything.  September 1941 in the indicia, issue #2. 

[JVJ (RIP)]

Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places.  As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.

-henry

Speaking of "entrenched", Henry,
I notice that people are still unsure whether Eisner in involved on the early Dr. Drew stories in Rangers. Darkmark continues to hedge his bets in a post here on the "Most Under-appreciated comic" thread. Those stories are signed "Jerry Grandenetti" but look more like Eisner and Co. than Grandenetti ever did before or since. We know what JG's art really looks like and the early Dr. Drews are more Eisner than him. At one point Grandenetti goes solo, still signing, but the style changes drastically and becomes much more recognizably him.

As for the Senorita Rio stories (#65 & 66), Hames Ware and Henry Steele (and I) have all debunked the notion that these are Grandenetti. I wish you wouldn't perpetuate outdated info, dm.

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[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places.  As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.

-henry

Speaking of "entrenched", Henry,
I notice that people are still unsure whether Eisner in involved on the early Dr. Drew stories in Rangers. Darkmark continues to hedge his bets in a post here on the "Most Under-appreciated comic" thread. Those stories are signed "Jerry Grandenetti" but look more like Eisner and Co. than Grandenetti ever did before or since. We know what JG's art really looks like and the early Dr. Drews are more Eisner than him. At one point Grandenetti goes solo, still signing, but the style changes drastically and becomes much more recognizably him.

As for the Senorita Rio stories (#65 & 66), Hames Ware and Henry Steele (and I) have all debunked the notion that these are Grandenetti. I wish you wouldn't perpetuate outdated info, dm.

Has this discussion made it into the GCD?  If no one here wants to go in and work on the indexes themselves, if there's a summary you can write or point me to I can at least file an error report so it doesn't get forgotten.  I like to at least get the right names in the fields (for searching) with a listing of the positions being argued and who has ID'd what so folks can draw their own conclusions.  And of course if a position has stronger evidence, that should go in the fields and the notes should just explain why the older theory has been debunked so that folks don't change it back.
thanks,
-henry [who has not seen the stories in question and is a mediocre art spotter at best anyway]

[JVJ (RIP)]

The data is already IN GCD, Henry,
That's why I was surprised to see DM's post. Henry, Hames and I updated all of those listings to be accurate as we can be and they should be respected unless someone has some additional and newly accredited information.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Bob Hughes]

I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.

Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-)  But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that.  I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)

The Green Hornet Pub co. stuff came from Keltner's index, which has always seemed to be pretty accurate, as far as it goes.

[Bob Hughes]

Mike Feldman sees a connection between Speed Comics and Speed Pulps- the successor to the Spicy line.
I can't find this connection, other than Barreaux (did I spell it right that time?). I don't even think the time periods match.

The Speed magazines according to the Fiction Mags index were still published by Trojan.

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.

Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-)  But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that.  I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)

The Green Hornet Pub co. stuff came from Keltner's index, which has always seemed to be pretty accurate, as far as it goes.

Keltner's index is wonderful, and one of my favorite resources, but it's got errors just like any large project (and not just in the groupings).  The indicia publishers listed for several Chesler books are wrong, as discussed on gcd-main around the new year (the GCD now has all of those set correctly, although the whole "surrogate" question is still open on some, and a few are not grouped properly).  Also, Keltner's issue/volume numbers for Cat-Man have several errors, and I believe his index is the source of Narrative, Aviation Press and Bilbara being improperly grouped, as well as being the first place I saw the "Captain Aero continues from Samson" theory.  That plus the one scanned copyright statement listing Helnit makes me skeptical.

[JVJ (RIP)]

Hames Ware and I refer to ourselves as "VWinc" with inc standing for Information NEWLY Compiled. Copying information that was compiled 40 years ago is NOT research. Sure, it might be right, but it also might be a mistake or a misinterpretation. That's why I'm currently limiting myself to, at most, second hand information. Either I have seen the books or the scans or someone I trust has seen them. I hope that this thread will lead to an update of what is considered "known" about this topic, and I heartily thank all of those participating.

One thing I would LOVE to see is the entire article that Will Murray found in the April issue of Writer's Digest. Does anyone have a scan of that?

Champion #6 Adolphe Barreaux studio material begins to appear.

This is erroneous on your Temerson page, Bob. Barreaux is working in Champion as early as issue #3 (Jan. 1940).

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[Bob Hughes]

Champion #6 Adolphe Barreaux studio material begins to appear.

This is erroneous on your Temerson page, Bob. Barreaux is working in Champion as early as issue #3 (Jan. 1940).

You're correct of course.  The whole page is a work in progress as I manage to find and look at the originals.  First hand obseravation is always better than second hand, or third hand, or God help us, Wikipedia.

[JVJ (RIP)]

Several of my earliest Champs and Speeds are being scanned by OtherEric on GAC, Bob, so you might have some more first hand access soon.

I would never look at Wikipedia for information on such things. Without provenance, the data is untrustworthy.

Speaking of which, do you have the Writer's Digest information (the raw scan or photocopy or whatever) that Will Murray provided you with? I really would love to see it.

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