General Category > Comic Related Discussion
Holyoke is a Myth...
JVJ (RIP):
--- Quote from: bchat on April 07, 2010, 11:50:38 AM ---So, if I'm understanding this statement correctly, the connection of Bilbara to "Holyoke" is made by a single creator (Quinlan) working for both companies? That's not really much of a connection, considering how many other creators worked for multiple publishers.
Cyclone Comics 1 (Bilbara) & Champion Comics 9 (Worth) both have the same editorial address, yet have different publication addresses (420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO & 8 Lord Street, Buffalo NY respectively). Family Comics Inc published Speed Comics 43 (May-June 1946) using a publication address of 1117 Wolfendale Ave, Pittsburgh PA, while FCI's All-New Comics 13 (July-August 1946) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. Centuar Publications' Wham Comics 1 (Nov 1940) has a publication address of 221 East 20th St., Chicago IL, while their Super Spy 1 (Oct 1940) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. So, citing different printing addresses isn't enough to convince me that two titles sharing the same editorial address during the same period of time were published by different companies. All that the different printing addresses tell me is that different printers were used to print different books.
--- End quote ---
True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
(|:{>
bchat:
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 12:05:08 PM ---True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
--- End quote ---
After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.
--- Quote ---And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me. The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan. Thanks for clearing that up.
Henry Andrews (fox_centaur):
--- Quote from: bchat on April 07, 2010, 12:49:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 12:05:08 PM ---True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
--- End quote ---
After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I should have emphasized that because of the nature of Holyoke Publishing Co., Inc. coming from the Holyoke printing business, I consider the lack of a Holyoke printing address to have more significance than I would usually attach to the printing address. As far as I know, all actual Holyoke books were printed at Holyoke, and say so.
Also, JVJ mentioned the distribution, which I had forgotten about but was also a supporting point when Frank Motler, the fellow from bipcomics.com (whose name is escaping me at the moment) and I kicked this around a while back. This is why Great is now listed separately in the bipcomics.com indicia listings, btw.
--- Quote from: bchat on April 07, 2010, 12:49:25 PM ---
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 12:05:08 PM ---And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
--- End quote ---
Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me. The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan. Thanks for clearing that up.
--- End quote ---
Yup, this is what I get for dashing off a quick message on a complex topic while running late for work :-) I do have some more Helnit/Holyoke issues I'd like to scan (picked up Captain Fearless #2 and Captain Aero #v1#8 (2) at WonderCon) but there's so much GCD coding to get done...
Thanks to all for their comments on this- the Temerson/Holyoke mess is one of my favorite topics in golden age publishing.
Henry Andrews (fox_centaur):
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---Thanks, Henry,
glad you're able to add some clarity to the Quinlan connection. It's certainly true that Bilbara (Cyclone) and Worth (Champion) both ended before Helnit (Green Hornet, Catman, Capt. Aero and Capt. Fearless) begin. It's a fact I'd noticed but not internalized with regard Quinlan's role.
--- End quote ---
I have a really big spreadsheet where the columns are months (cover dates) from 1935-1955 and the rows are series grouped by publisher with various bits of coloring. It's wonderful for making certain things jump out from the data. The whole Worth / Temerson / Holyoke thing (with Narrative and Aviation Press often wrongly associated) is a lot easier to work out when you see it like that.
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---There is still the weird "coincidence" of Whirlwind (main character "Cyclone") debuting from Nita the same month that Cyclone debuts from Bilbara. I believe it is pure coincidence, but others find it indicative of some hidden connection. I remain skeptical.
--- End quote ---
I'm with you on this coincidence. Likewise the use of Volton- it's just a name that Quinlan recycled, the characters are quite different.
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---Does anyone have an exact date on Green Hornet #1? My research shows 12/40, but that seems a couple of months early based on all the other Helnit titles. And, actually, my notes on all of the GH issues are second hand. Does anyone have dates and publishing addresses directly from the comics?
--- End quote ---
I've never found clear info on this book either.
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?
--- End quote ---
This was Bob Hughes' analysis. I'll follow up on the gcd-main list.
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.
--- End quote ---
I'll have to look into the data I have. I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address. Worth a look- thanks!
On a related note, anyone know anything about Continental Publications, that publised four issues of Foodini (licensed tie-in) much later on (50's? not near my notes right now). Same address as Continental Magazines, but the huge gap and different content raise questions. Like the link between Ultem and Brookwood, it may require looking at Temerson's non-comics work to see if there is continuity.
thanks,
-henry
Henry Andrews (fox_centaur):
--- Quote from: fox_centaur on April 07, 2010, 01:43:56 PM ---
--- Quote from: JVJ on April 07, 2010, 11:54:53 AM ---Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.
--- End quote ---
I'll have to look into the data I have. I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address. Worth a look- thanks!
--- End quote ---
Just realized I said Quinlan => Cole while you were talking about Willner and Ulmer. I did notice those two appearing in Holyoke (while I found only one or two Quinlan credits in the Blue Beetle run, at most). Blue Beetle seems to be the means by which Holyoke acquired it's own relationships with artists to continue on into Sparkling Stars. Since Blue Beetle, unlike Cat-Man and Captain Aero, didn't come with its own staff, as far as I can tell it became largely produced by the Temerson staff (or freelancers), some of whom kept on as Holyoke became a "real" publisher.
I hadn't noticed Willner as editor. I really want to go over the Cat-Man run and fix it up in the GCD. Also, I have an issue or two that isn't scanned or is only partially scanned (and indexed) that I need to get into both the GCD and the DCM.
Thanks for the reply, Jim!
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