General Category > Comic Related Discussion
Holyoke is a Myth...
archiver_USA:
--- Quote from: bchat on April 18, 2010, 09:08:01 AM ---Wait, if there are facts to be shared, why should anyone have to wait & then spend money to get the information they need which can help them conduct their own line of research? "I know something but I won't share it until I get paid for it" seems incredibly greedy & selfish to me.
--- End quote ---
If he's spent time and money into researching this topic for a book, why shouldn't he get paid for it? I don't think its greedy to try and recoup your expenses and generate some profit for the time and effort invested. I'm willing to wait for and purchase a book if one is coming.
But if he's going to come in here and say we've got it all wrong I do expect some level of proof. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the research we have is just "front company" level material. I'm more interested in the day-to-day operations of these companies anyways. I'm looking at Comic Book Marketplace #30 at the moment and I'm staring at an office picture of the staff of Et-Es-Go/Continental from 1944 showing Chris Shaare, Mark Bogardo, Frank Temerson, George Harrison, Jack Alderman, L.B. Cole, Jack Grogan, Charles Quinlan, Lucy Feller and Rae Herman. These are real people doing real work in a real office producing comics.
I'm willing to accept there are "back company" guys acting as investors and making the deals on where to buy the paper, dictating who would be the printer, and who would control the distribution, but I don't think these "broken nose" guys had any input into the editorial or art of what would appear on that paper that I'm collecting and reading.
I think the "front company" aspect is just as important, if not more so, than the "back company" guys running the shady part of the business.
JVJ (RIP):
No, bchat,
it's good business sense and I can live with it. Mike's information didn't come free and the chance to write a book and be acknowledged as the author is certainly a valid reason. I'm with archiver_USA that we should know that's what going on. I'm with John C. here, too:
Just tell us and we'll put things on hold.
Bob is also correct is that there is history to be documented using the content of the comics, and it's just as valid as that which achieved using publishing addresses which is also just as valid as what Mike says was going to in the background behind the scenes. These are all subsets or pieces of a bigger history. None of it is bogus or wrong. It's just looking a bunch of blind men looking at a mighty big elephant...
Mike, you needn't be in awe of anything I ever did or might do. I'm just looking at my piece of the elephant. It's all any of us can really do. Thank you for the offer of "offlist" but at the moment that simply can't happen. I'm caught three ways to Sunday in real life - in a cast that keeps me for accessing my comics and data cards, preparing for a 6-week vacation in Paris (leaving Thursday if the Iceland volcano gives up) and several other ongoing projects with Hames Ware.
DCM is my window into the elephant room. If you can't post the details here, I'll simply have to pass for now. It would be extremely helpful if you could explain WHY you are reluctant to post specifics and sources here. As I said before, I think most of us here are receptive to your data, but we are searching for the source material that will allow us to view it and come to our own (perhaps different) conclusions based on what each of us know. In science, this is "peer review" and it's used to prove a theory. It is what differentiates the dilettantes from the professionals.
Here's just one point from your most recent post:
--- Quote ---From what I have learned, Holyoke was Bowles using a Temerson front operation.
--- End quote ---
seems to be in direct contradiction of
--- Quote ---Based on accumulated circumstantial evidence, I am pretty certain Temerson, originally a crooked attorney from Alabama was put in charge of a consortium of the a couple of the above interests, primarily Bowles, operating as Holyoke. A somewhat suspicious operation according to those who interfaced with them, with fancy offices in Lower Manhattan.
--- End quote ---
Was Temerson put in charge OF a consortium or BY a consortium? Big difference to my ears.
And Feldstein was talking about post war Fox, not the 1944 Fox that was connected with Holyoke. And what mechanism did Fox use with the consortium to reacquire his books? So many questions...
(|:{>
bchat:
--- Quote from: archiver_USA on April 18, 2010, 09:43:54 AM ---If he's spent time and money into researching this topic for a book, why shouldn't he get paid for it? I don't think its greedy to try and recoup your expenses and generate some profit for the time and effort invested. I'm willing to wait for and purchase a book if one is coming.
But if he's going to come in here and say we've got it all wrong I do expect some level of proof.
--- End quote ---
If he's writing a book that tells the history of a company or comics in general, yeah sure, he should get paid for that. If he's weaving an interesting story drawn from interviews or drawing conclusions from facts he's gathered & wants money for those thoughts, that's fine. What I have a problem with is people sitting on facts and not sharing them, then doing nothing more than saying "you're all wrong, I know the facts and I expect $24.95 from each of you to learn the truth!" I don't think it's right to hold-up somebody else's research (in this case, untangling the mess that is "Holyoke") because someone wants money for their "time and effort". People may disagree with me on this point, and that's fine too. I just feel that it's better to work together, especially when it comes to the history of Golden Age comics, and that starts with sharing the facts, not clinging to them like precious stones.
John C:
--- Quote from: bchat on April 18, 2010, 09:08:01 AM ---Wait, if there are facts to be shared, why should anyone have to wait & then spend money to get the information they need which can help them conduct their own line of research? "I know something but I won't share it until I get paid for it" seems incredibly greedy & selfish to me.
--- End quote ---
Hey, freelance writing is researching and writing for profit. If that's a chunk of your income, it's very hard to part with information (in a public forum among people who will quickly and widely disseminate it) for free. Selfishness is what gets the bills paid, after all.
That's not to imply that this is the situation, which none of us knows but Mike. I'm just saying that, if it is, it's a valid reason for being vague. And I don't appreciate the implication that anybody here is holding any information for ransom.
mmiichael:
I've shared a lot of my accumulated data, testimony and insights online and with serious researchers like Steve Rowe, Bob Hughes, and Jerry Bails in the past.
I have worked in the publishing industry, more recently as a consultant, and a few times peripherally in the comics industry, I stopped collecting old comic books after the prices became absurd. Mucho good literature and fine art that can be bought for the same prices. But was always interested in the evolution of the medium and the business side fo things.
I'm not judgemental in any way but anyone who knows anything about 20th Century American periodical distribution in the aware of the increasing mob involvement to the level of near full control by the 80s.
As Bob rightly notes, after the Gold Rush Days of 1939-42 comics increasingly became fodder to keep Teamster trucks filled and moving product. Small companies like Hoyoke were structural expediencies to put something colourful onto those blank pages. These kind of operations don’t break down easily to the cataloguing and quantification that some feel compelled to impose on them.
I doubt Sherman Bowles would have ever been able to name any of the comic book titles he financed. It was a matter of so many tons of paper acquired, the conversation to marketable product, and the net profits.
I expect Temerson had minimal input into the actual editorial content as well. His function would have been more along the lines of making sure the printing and distributing arms were providing reliable numbers and that product was going to where it was needed in a timely fashion.
There is something called “cash-skimming” that is endemic to businesses like publishing-distribution that makes it attractive to racketeers. And my guess is Temerson knew a lot about that side of things.
But I’m rambling now.
Mike
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version