Little Ike 02

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Comic Name: Little Ike 02 (88.16 MB)
Description: Scans by Conan the Librarian
David Miles edits
Uploaded by: David Miles
Upload Date: 2023-11-15 16:34:49

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[Yoc]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
Note, this title's numbering continues from Little Joe, sadly missing from DCM.
If anyone owns it PLEASE consider scanning it for sharing.
 

[lrek]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
So what's the deal with Little Joe? There's a slabbed 0.5 copy on eBay with an asking price of $399 (!). It might be rare (or not) but it can't be very valuable if there's no demand.
 

[Yoc]

No idea.
There seems to be a connection to Little Audrey that I've learned means we can't share it on DCM.

-Yoc

[Robb_K]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
I'd like to know what the Little Audrey connection is to "Little Joe #1" that prevents it from being shown to the public due to copyright law.  If it is St. John's placement of a 1-page introduction from Audrey to Little Joe (as a new Character Title for that publisher), couldn't we simply remove that page ad just upload the remainder of the book, to avoid the risk of copyright infringement?  The same could be done to a "Little Audrey" filler story, that was placed in the book to get the 2nd class postal rate.  As to whether or not St. Johns' "Little Audrey" comic books' material is currently PD, CB+ currently has uploaded St. John's "Little Audrey" series through #10, but not #11-24(which, apparently, must still be under copyright).  That means that St. John (renewed its rights to its Little Audrey issues starting with that series' July-August 1950 issue.  The "Little Joe" issue was published AFTER that, so its Little Audrey pages (story OR Introduction to the new series MAY have been renewed. We don't know whether it was or not.  But if Little Audrey was seen to be a Trademark of Paramount pictures, and THAT is the reason it can't be uploaded, why are we allowed to upload St. John's Little Audrey #1-10?  

Personally, I think that if that book becomes available to us, we should upload it, and to be safe, just remove any pages that include Little Audrey.  I believe that it is only Harvey's productions using that character, that are totally NON-PD for all comic books.

I hope that anyone who knows the PD status of St. John's Paramount productions will inform us about them.
 

[lrek]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
FWIW, GCDB does not mention any Audrey material in its bare-bones description of the content.
 

[Robb_K]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
Maybe Yoc can tell us what the connection to Little Audrey is?  It's the Paramount copyright that is important, rather than Harvey's later copyrights (that Yoc mentioned as being a sign that we can't upload anything with Little Audrey material).  As for GCD, I've recognised literally hundreds of either inaccurate credits or other missing or incorrect informational data that I could provide corrected information.  But the administrators there wouldn't give me access to making corrections.  So I submitted a few suggested changes with some documentation, but they never got around to making the changes or additions.  So I gave up.  But I found that just because there is no information in various areas for a book, doesn't mean that what we hear or read in posts or from other collectors is not reflected in GCD's database doesn't mean that it isn't a fact (and also doesn't even mean that they don't have access to that data, as their overburdened small staff of volunteers is always quite a bit behind in tabulating new information.  Virtually all my potential contributions are in the Comedy genre (GA and very early SA), and I believe that genre takes a back seat in priority to Golden Age action-based (and other realistic Human-figured) series.  So it is understandable.  From what you just told us, it seems as though we could upload Little Joe at CB+.  Mark is a bit less risk averse than this website's administration.  I doubt if "Little Joe" would be very expensive on auction.  It's a very ordinary and bland little kids' book from the early 1950s, and not nearly as funny or clever as "Little Eva" (which had some cross-fertilisation with "Little Joe/Ike").  So, it should pop up for sale or auction within the next few or several years.  I suspect that most people who'd want it would be historian/archivist types, like me, who would just want it for completion, rather than having a nostalgic attachment to it.
 

[Snard]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
I will respond here since I am the person who scanned this book (Conan is one of the nicknames I use when I scan comics). I am also the person who told Yoc of the connection to Little Audrey, so that he could investigate whether there might be a copyright issue. Little Joe was a recurring character in St. John Little Audrey comics and stories, and he often had his own stories in those books. As noted earlier, the Little Audrey title was copyrighted by Paramount Pictures, while Little Joe and Little Ike were copyrighted by St. John Publishing. I am not an expert on copyright, and I understand that it can be difficult to determine whether a book is public domain or not. For a site like DCM which maintains a large library of scans, I can understand if the owners take a "better safe than sorry" stance on books, to avoid copyright claims which could shut down the site or embroil it in legal issues. That said, I will also mention that I know that Little Joe #1 has already been scanned by a colleague and is awaiting editing. If further investigation shows that it is safe to post, I am sure it will be uploaded here. Thanks to everyone for their support and interest in these books.
 

[Robb_K]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
Thanks for that information, Snard.  It's good to know that "Little Joe" has been found, and will be scanned.  I definitely hope that it's copyright status will be further researched to the point where it will be known whether or not that book's contents will be in The PD.  Then, neither DCM nor CB+ will risk legal problems or being shut down, and I hope that, at the very least, the book's currently PD contents will be able to be uploaded at CB+.
 

[lrek]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
AFAICT, Little Joe first appeared in Little Audrey #11 (July 1950) as a redhead and wearing a distinctive (Jughead-like) cap. On the front cover of Little Joe #1 (1953) he's a capless blonde, so perhaps an argument could be made that the name is pure coincidence and not, say, based on Leffingwell's (& Gray's?) Little Joe (1933-1972)? Hard to say without seeing the actual Little Joe comic. Do any of the other members of Audrey's gang appear in his book?
 

[Robb_K]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
I'm guessing that St. Johns' "Little Audrey 11" is NOT in The PD, given that CB+ has uploaded that series through #10, but not #s 11-24(whose copyrights must still be active).  But, I don't think that THAT fact automatically means that "Little Joe" is still under copyright.  Only the "Little Joe" story printed in that book would be.  IF that one story was reprinted in "Little Joe 1", I believe it could be left out, and the remainder of the book uploaded, (unless the rights to the character name, "Little Joe" are still under copyright, related to the name change from St. Johns' "Little Joe" to "Little Ike" after Issue #1).  I'd like to find out which comic book publisher held the rights to that character name in early 1953.  Could it have been Western Publishing for the "Little Joe" (Cowboy Chicago Tribune comic strip comic book adaptations in their Four Color series 10-12 years earlier)?  Or could it have been Fawcett, for their "Little Joe" character in their "Dennis The Menace" series?  St. Johns' "Little Joe" stayed with St. John, when Paramount's "Little Audrey" moved to Harvey, and became a filler feature and background character in St. John's "Little Eva Comics", until #22 in 1956.  The question is whether or not a new publisher currently holds St. John's formerly-owned rights to "Little Joe".  Clearly, Harvey never owned them.
 

[Robb_K]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
Thanks for your comments, Irek.  Unfortunately, we only have St. John's "Little Audrey" #s 2-10, The Front Cover of "Little Joe 1", and all 3 of St. John's"Little Ike"; and we don't know exactly why that series' title was changed from "Little Joe" to "Little Ike".  So, we only have GCD's entries for the books they have indexed.  According to GCD, in "Little Audrey Comics' " #s 11-24, Little Joe was a secondary character in 4 5 to 7-page "Little Audrey Comics' " stories, and 2 of her 1-Page gags.  And Little Joe was the primary character (titled character) in one 5-Page and one 2-Page story, and three 1-Page gags in Audrey's books.  Unfortunately, GCD lists no secondary characters in the stories featuring him.  In her books #2-10, her neighbour, (best friend) Patches (a boy her age), was the only secondary child character.  GCD Lists only Patches (in most of her stories) Little Joe (only in 2 of her stories and 2 gag pages), and Herbert, in one story.  But, I fear that GCD doesn't list all her child secondary characters.  She seems not to have had a "regular gang" or circle of friends. We don't know which secondary characters appeared in the one "Little Joe" book.  In the 3 "Little Ike" books, Bobby, Tommy, Cindy, Little Eva, Nipper Nuggin(Eva's best boy friend, from "Little Eva Comics").  nipper is from Little Eva's gang(circle of friends(which also include Little Joe/Ike, Nipper, Beanpole, Slugger, Tommy, and Bobby.  So, it seems that Little Joe was "created" by St. John's editors, in 1950 (2 years after St. John started that series, to be a secondary support character for Paramount character "Little Audrey" Comic books), who was, in 1952, included as a semi-regular character in St. John's startup of their "Little Eva" series.  And being a St. John copyrighted character, his copyrights were not sent along to Harvey, when Paramount shifted their cartoon character franchise over to that publisher.  So we need to find out if any individual or firm currently owns an active copyright on St. John's "Little Joe" character.  

St. John's "Little Joe" was clearly NOT patterned after Ed Leffingwell's or Harold Gray's newspaper strip's "Little Joe", because Leffingwell's character was much taller, larger, and about 12 years old, adventurous, and interested in learning about The World, and with a high moral code, wanting "right" to prevail over "wrong, - while St. John's "Little Joe" character was only about 6 or 7 years old, half his size, and a very bland character, interested in more babyish pursuits.
 

[lrek]

Comment made at: Little Ike 02
My best guess is that Paramount owned all the SJ-produced LA material, including the supporting characters. [Indicia for LA Issue 20: "Entire contents copyrighted 1951 by Paramount Picture Corporation."]   ...    So maybe, and God knows why, a year after they lost the license to LA, SJ decided to spin off a relatively unknown LA character (with a few changes to the design -- the hair color and hat). Little Joe was dated Apr 1953, and Little Ike Jun-Oct 1953, so SJ apparently had a number of issues stockpiled. But, after the first issue, Paramount told them it was a no-no. Rather than fight a lawsuit, SJ changed the character's name and Bob's your uncle.   ...    But whatever happened to Patches and Sarge?   ...    Anyway, if my speculation is right, then Paramount owns ALL the SJ-produced LA material.