Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: JimShelley on February 24, 2013, 04:10:08 PM
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In another thread from about a year ago (that I just happened to stumble across while looking for something else entirely on Google) John C said...
The real question I have, at this point, is why there's no competition. An entire industry revolving around recycling last year's concepts for this year's readers (who were also among last year's readers) and making you jump through hoops to spend too much on the product...where are all the wannabes putting out a decent digital download undercutting their prices and without having to sign up for a magic service?
(I had high hopes for Jim Shelley's Flashback Universe books, but that seems to have been more of a hobby to test the waters than a business, and sort of collapsed into another blog complaining about comics/reliving childhood memories of comics. A real shame.)
First, yeah, that there was more than one Flashback Universe comic was more of a surprise than a planned publishing strategy. My original goal was to make one issue to promote the CBR format (because at the time, there were other formats people were proposing for digital comics - and they mostly sucked.) The response we got to the Saturn Knight comic encourage Pierre and me to make a few more, but eventually the realities of the publishing weighed in and we sort of took a permanent hiatus.
And here's where the main thrust of the thread kicks in - I have thought long and hard about what chances a new comics series has in the modern marketplace - and the answer is: Not Good.
I have crunched numbers, watched peers and spoken to well know comic professionals and unfortunately, unless you are a very talented artist, who has a great day job, and no social/familial obligations, your odds of making a long run new comic series successful is very, very low.
I think the issue is that fans, as a whole, like what they like and are reluctant (for the most part) to give anything else a try. It's far safer to give fans new versions of Phantom Stranger or licensed Shadow and Dr. Who comics than it is to go out on a limb and try publishing a new concept. By and large, new concepts are huge money pits. Not just for me, an amateur creatpr, but even for huge multinational companies. What new character concept has "stuck" for Marvel or DC? The new Blue Beetle? Avenger's Academy? If a title doesn't feature a well known A list character, odds are, it's circling the drain sales wise after one year.
But what about Walking Dead one might ask? Well, Kirkman's Walking Dead sells 30K + but his Invincible doesn't do half that number. And he's had years to promote that series with the full force of Image's marketing muscle behind it. Other guys (like Jim Zubkavich of Skullkickers or The Goon's Eric Powell) have to scramble for publicity and been very outspoken about the insular nature of comic fandom.
Check this out: Every blue moon, I get an email from some young creator trying to break into comics with his version of Batman or Superman. Usually they want to know what they need to do to get people to notice their efforts. I usually ask them if they read anything other than just Marvel or DC. And usually they say no. I then tell them, if you can figure out what would make you read someone elses non-Big Two superhero comic, then you have your answer.
But I don't think that's an easy question to answer.
Now, with all that said, you might think I've totally thrown in the towel. Not so.
The thing is, you simply have to redefine your victory parameters. You aren't going to pay your mortgage with the money you might get from putting out your own superhero comic, but there are other avenues available. And some clever people have paved the way. Game changers like KickStarter and Comixology can perhaps provide some hope for the future.
Probably should have just saved this rant for a blog post. ;)
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Thanks for the update and sharing your thoughts Jim.
:)
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Thanks for the answer, Jim (good to see you here, too!), and to be clear, I meant that more in the "I had assumed enough people would find that interesting to keep it afloat" more than "Jim and his friends are a bunch of stoopid-heads and I'm personally offended by their lack of progress." On the Internet, I do realize the latter is the more popular interpretation, by far...
But I also (believe I--though I could be wrong) didn't necessarily mean characters or creators. I meant the "gold rush" to digital comics as "well, you can download a Flash video player that'll show you the comic you paid for" rather than downloads, peer-to-peer networks, Creative Commons licensing, app stores, and so forth.
Given that, whenever DC makes a tiny change to a character, they seem to scour the Internet for angry commenters and find some excuse to give the self-entitled, diminishing fans what they want, and other companies back off of changing their characters. You'd think some small company with a sustainable business (or a company on a downward-slide) would see the anger at comics you license instead of own and make a point at going after the pro-downloader business.
Diamond was an abusive monopoly that was hard to escape, but there's no such excuse, digitally.
(If I have time later, I'll try to get back to your actual point...)
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I would love to see digital put Diamond out. I think on-demand printing will replace Diamond in the future. The nice thing about getting your foot in the door digitally is that the only cost is time. A comic can be created and published digitally for "free."
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Thanks for the answer, Jim (good to see you here, too!), and to be clear, I meant that more in the "I had assumed enough people would find that interesting to keep it afloat" more than "Jim and his friends are a bunch of stoopid-heads and I'm personally offended by their lack of progress." On the Internet, I do realize the latter is the more popular interpretation, by far...
Ha! That's funny. Yeah, I took the comment as you intended. Other people have said as much to me via email or in person. :)
But I also (believe I--though I could be wrong) didn't necessarily mean characters or creators. I meant the "gold rush" to digital comics as "well, you can download a Flash video player that'll show you the comic you paid for" rather than downloads, peer-to-peer networks, Creative Commons licensing, app stores, and so forth.
Gold Rush is a perfect description for that era! There was a short spate of other people trying to provide different ways to do what Comixology is doing. Wowio, Eyemelt, Graphic.Ly, iVerse, Longbox (though that never really even got started) - what' interesting is that as you say, the playing field seems to have been ceded mostly to ComiXology. From what I understand, the issue is it takes a ton of money to acquire digital distribution rights from the big two (up to 6 digits) - Only ComiXology and iVerse seem to have deep enough pockets to keep paying until their user base was big enough to catch up with the costs (though we don't really know that it has - neither company issues anything like a P/L statement.) I also think Jeanette Kahn's influence as a board member of ComiXology was influential in helping them make working with DC.
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I would love to see digital put Diamond out. I think on-demand printing will replace Diamond in the future. The nice thing about getting your foot in the door digitally is that the only cost is time. A comic can be created and published digitally for "free."
narfstar, I agree with you. I was originally a real skeptic of the print on-demand model but after supporting several Kickstarter projects, I'm sold on it. Paul Jenkin's FairyQuest was one of the highlights of my 2012 comics year. I'm definitely thinking that's the way to go for more refined projects!
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Currently the main problem with print on demand is postage. I foresee a model of local print on demand at the LCS.
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I've been astonished that people trying for fame with online comics - and the major players, for that matter - seem to think that people will pay several dollars for a digital download. The economic model seems screwloose to me these days. I don't think that fans are resistant to the idea of new heroes per se; rather, they are hobbled by paying $2-4 per issue for a meager 22 pages of entertainment. Certainly, fans love the classic characters, but the Big 2 have specialized in "crowding the marketplace" and shutting out virtually all competition since the 1970's.
I've been surprised that nobody has tried micro-payments of the type that I recall Scott McCloud writing about years ago. With companies trying to push digital issues for a couple of bucks, comics will remain a tiny ghetto. On the other hand, if a digital copy of Spider-Man or X-Men was a dime or so? I could see more inroads to online collecting. And more competition - but that's never been anything that Marvel or DC ever wanted to encourage, anyway.
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Speaking of Diamond - I loved this old Gutters web-comic on them -
http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/48-brad-guigar
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The problem, though, is that ComiXology is basically the new Diamond. And that's probably going to be the real problem with digital comics (along with e-books of various sorts). The concept doesn't seem to work as well without a monopoly, or rather, there's no utility to competition, at least for a particular book. If you buy and download stuff, sure, that works great. But if you're only allowed to see something from a centralized source anyway...
And by the way, to look into the future of comics like this, check out what Netflix has been doing and realize that a company like ComiXology can (I don't know if they do) know which books you read, when you read them, how often you read them, and how long you spend on each page.
I agree, though, that Print on Demand has a lot of potential, and it'll have even more when someone realizes that you can open a shop half the size of a Starbucks and, with a 3D printer, a setup like the Internet Bookmobile, and a few other gadgets, you can sell from pretty much an infinite stock and little to no staff.
I can't find a good article on the topic (if I find one, I'll post it), but the upshot is that they funded their new House of Cards based on analytics. Subscribers watch a lot with Kevin Spacey, so it stars Kevin Spacey. Political thrillers average more users who watch to the end of the credits, so it's a political thriller. People who watch BBC adaptations are more likely to go on to watch more, so it's a BBC adaptation. Poof, TV crack. So what if it's the most plodding, cliché show anybody's ever seen (and oh, yes it is...), the numbers don't lie! I imagine that at least some comics will head in that direction as soon as the House of Cards numbers are in.
As to the competition in comics, themselves, I get the feeling that a lot of "culture" (for lack of a less general word) has stagnated in a lot of ways. Every action movie has the same plot, and franchises have the same arc: Origin, Victory at a Cost, Fight for Civilization. The posters are all the mysterious cloaked figure looking out over a city in ruins.
(Argh. Which painting am I thinking of, here, which all those movie posters? Anybody? Something about being over the storm? Dutch, maybe?)
Anyway, so much feels like a retread. So I wonder if it's a lack of competition of ideas so much as (like with Netflix) focusing on what's already known to sell. It'd explain the last twenty years at DC, certainly, with all the blind resurrection of every single detail from the '70s and ill-advised, perpetual crossovers without much of a plot, not to mention the absolute obsession over "core" characters, either "the trinity" or the founding JLAers.
But the thing is, independent comics shouldn't be sold like it's still 1980, in my opinion. If you have an idea and the talent, the barrier for entry is pretty darn low, and stuff never goes away. If you're not looking to quit your day job, it shouldn't be hard to find an audience over time, certainly.
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I know that it is not much but I just contributed $5 to the webcomic Quantum Vibe. It is science fiction and I am about half through and enjoying. If enough people pay $5 or even $1 it can add up to be profitable. BTW in case you have not guessed I recommend Quantum Vibe for sci fi fans.
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Print on Demand has a lot of potential, and it'll have even more when someone realizes that you can open a shop half the size of a Starbucks and, with a 3D printer
To heck with the comics, people will just be printing life size 3D versions of Wonder Woman, Starfire, Black Cat, etc... ;)
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I know that it is not much but I just contributed $5 to the webcomic Quantum Vibe. It is science fiction and I am about half through and enjoying. If enough people pay $5 or even $1 it can add up to be profitable. BTW in case you have not guessed I recommend Quantum Vibe for sci fi fans.
The thing that is really cool about this is that sometimes a donation is the sort of thank you that keeps a guy going more than the actual money amount if you know what I mean.
I checked out the comic and while I've just started the story, I can already say it's well drawn and nicely colored.
http://www.quantumvibe.com/
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John C - I saw a similar article in Bloomberg BusinessWeek about Netflix and House of Cards. I was impressed with how much thought had gone into the process and how low the cost was needed to fund the show (relative to their revenue). My father in law watched it and he's a huge fan - and true to your words, he's now gone to watch more BBC shows.
But I think netflix (at least via Roku) does a much better job in suggesting new shows for people to watch than ComiXology. And printed comics actually do a horrible job suggesting new comics for you to read. The sad thing I've seen over the years is after some new comic fan reads Sandman, there's not a huge pipeline of other Sandman-like comics waiting in the queue for them. I remember standing in line in a comic shop when such a reader asked the guy behind the counter what he could buy that was like Sandman and the clerk suggested Darwyn Cooke's New Frontier. (Wtf? - I mean that's a great comic series unto itself, but it was a wrongheaded suggestion.)
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I don't begrudge Netflix doing this sort of work, but I do worry that we'll end up forever more having to buy what already sells, rather than what people really want. No algorithm is going to produce a Jericho or a Firefly, not even one that's commercial enough to eke out a whole season, unless you already have them in the input.
As for comic recommendations...you're right, but I can also almost see a good argument for it. I haven't specifically read New Frontier, but from what I know, they're both "big" stories, with stylized (almost designed more to be watched than read) art, and an affection for minor, forgotten characters. It's probably better than any of the million imitators that popped up at the time or almost anything else Gaiman worked on. The closest I can think of would be the Morrison-era Doom Patrol, in terms of art and storytelling.
But more likely, he was operating on the solipsist's version of the Amazon algorithm. "I also bought..."
I also agree on donations. This past December, after a list minute run through charitable donations that are going to land me on an FBI list somewhere (EFF, ACLU, Sunlight Foundation, Amnesty International...), I went back to go through the stuff I've enjoyed through the year, websites, software, and so forth, and dropped a few dollars in their direction(s), with bonus points going to liberally-licensed (i.e., Open Source or Creative Commons) material.
If it keeps any of them happy to be working on their project a tiny bit longer, it's money well-spent.
(I was also just on the verge of being a Kickstarter addict, spending a few hundred per month on really nifty stuff, until I moved to my credit cards secure/online numbers and found out that Amazon Payments is pathologically incapable of handling them, apparently by design, and their customer support has no continuity at all. So I spent weeks trying to move one rep after the next from "are you sure you typed all the digits in correctly?" to recap the entire saga, only to get the next inane response showing that they barely read what I sent. Err, summary, I love Kickstarter as a way to interact with and support creators, but been forced to go cold turkey for the duration. Not relevant to the discussion except to explain why I haven't contributed to a campaign in a few months despite it being a great program.)
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But more likely, he was operating on the solipsist's version of the Amazon algorithm. "I also bought..."
Hahahah! That's a funny way to put it, but I bet you anything, that's how he arrived at that recommendation!
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One place to look for many of these answers is the asian comics scene, it is completely different from the american one.
Japanese manga doesn't have these ever-living entities like batman or spiderman which have little consistancy, go one forever, repeat in cycles, have different writers and artists for every single issue, etc, etc. Instead each series is locked to (and owned by, in at least most cases) a single writer/artist or a small group of writers/artists (generally, the same person will both write AND draw the comic), and runs it's course within a limited span (rarely more than a couple years). When a series reaches it's climax (or gets cancelled), that's it. If the series was successful enough, the mangaka (artist/writer) might do a sequel series or a remake/reimagining series.
As for the publishers, they're more like book publishers in the US rather than comic publishers. The publishers don't own franchises like superman or the hulk, they just publish the work of contracted mangaka. A mangaka can even take their work to another publisher if the relationship with the current one turns sour (depending on the exact terms of the contract). Comics are published periodically in anthology style magazines. Most are later republished in collections of just that one title (similar to TPBs).
Some manga publishers also publish online editions, and others publish exclusively online. Korea meanwhile has a thriving webcomics culture. They publish ongoing stories, and often take advantage of the digital format by having pages of unlimited dimensions. A single page image might be the equivalent of 10 or 15 "pages" long.
I think what the american comics industry needs in order to shake it up is a large scale anthology publisher. People could then buy a single publication and get a slew of different comics to try out, they could then buy TPBs of their favorites and/or continue to get the anthology editions.
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I think what the american comics industry needs in order to shake it up is a large scale anthology publisher. People could then buy a single publication and get a slew of different comics to try out, they could then buy TPBs of their favorites and/or continue to get the anthology editions.
Funny you should mention that. Shonen Jump used to be published everywhere (grocery stores, etc.) and was an anthology of manga. But it went to all digital so I don't know if it was not selling well enough to stay in print or what.
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I actually had high hopes that DC's Showcase format (five hundred-ish pages, line-art only, square-bound) would evolve into a budget anthology format. There's a million angles to work, obviously, but I figured maybe do all the month's Superman-related stories, Batman's, and then pairings of the second-stringers, all the teams, the limited titles and launches (a genuine Showcase), and so forth. And, since it's an anthology, any time you get a prima donna artist who slacks off on his work, you give everybody a "special treat" of a story dusted off from the archives.
Another (more marketing-friendly, consumer-surly) approach would be to headline the flagship characters in as many of the books as possible to get the suckers to buy the entire line to try anything out, and you'd name them after the classic titles. Action Showcase would star Superman, and be backed by the more action-oriented heroes, like the Flash. Detective would be Batman, plus the noir side of the stable. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Either way, basically a gigantic version of the Golden Age, 64-page anthologies. Smarter would be to make it a quasi-social thing, where you get the fans to talk about what worked and what didn't work about each book (heavily moderated), and maybe allow people to submit work for use in upcoming issues.
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And here's the exact kind of thing I was worried could happen if one 'rents' scans.
http://comicsbeat.com/jmanga-shuts-down-taking-all-the-manga-you-bought-with-it/
-Yoc
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Make mine paper please. Yes I agree with Yoc on this, they can take it away anytime with no recourse for you the buyer. Bad business practise though.
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Bad business practice indeed. What I don't understand - and be gentle with me if I am showing my ignorance here - I have bought some comics fro Comixology and Izneo. I can access them and read them on my tablet off-line. Now if the site turned off, like the manga one, those titles should remain on my tablet. Or is my naivity showing?
And as for competition, just have a look at the European market. Lots of publishers producing and translating G.N.'s into other languages, now incl. English from Cine Books. Everything you could want, apart from superheroes.
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If it's 'cloud based' sharing like this Maga place was - they will be gone if the company goes broke.
If you can actually download a file you are Ok from what I understand.
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In another thread, member Roygbiv666 pointed me to this article: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/08/26/minimum-wage-price-of-comics/
It makes a telling argument: Comics sales are 'way down because prices are 'way high, compared to US minimum wage. Said minimum wage was established exactly when the first Superman comic hit the stand, so there's a good context for historical comparison. Comics prices were cheapest about the time Fantastic Four came out in 1964. Prices for similar-size comics now are relatively 4x-6x higher than then -- so a comparable burger-flipper who could afford 8-12 comics a week then can only afford 2 now.
And THAT'S why we don't see more competition in paper comics. The publishers have priced themselves out of mass markets and only produce boutique items. Prices of legal digital comics are 'way high also. And that's why we love free downloads here, right?
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The Gutters commented on the death of JManga
http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/393-mike-luckas
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And THAT'S why we don't see more competition in paper comics. The publishers have priced themselves out of mass markets and only produce boutique items. Prices of legal digital comics are 'way high also.
Actually, in any other industry, that's a beacon for competition. The embedded companies always claim otherwise, then they're overthrown.
The most recent example I can think of is the "tablet computer." The iPad was, and still is, a boutique item. It's a nice gadget, as far as such things go, and Apple tried to make it sound like there's no way to do it without them, because of the high costs. But oh, what's that? A fifty dollar tablet that works almost as well that you can buy at the corner drugstore...?
Especially digital, remember, comics arguably cost nothing but time. You don't need money to write or draw the stories, and even distribution isn't expensive until you grow your audience.
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comixology offers free hosting of your digital comics to sell. They get half you get half of sales.
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???
So they are offering to help you resell scans you've bought from them?
That wasn't something I expected to hear.
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I assume they mean "comics you created," not "comics you bought." Given all the fighting over DRM and whether you actually buy digital media (rather than "licensing" it), I doubt they think it's legal to resell at all.
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YES your own creations
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It would have base expenses like paper/pencil/ink OR Wacom tablet/computer, but when you are writing/drawing you aren't doing other work - so it is costing money. Isn't it?
Especially digital, remember, comics arguably cost nothing but time. You don't need money to write or draw the stories, and even distribution isn't expensive until you grow your audience.
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That's what I meant by time, Roy. I guess economists probably prefer the term "opportunity cost" or something similar.
However, that assumes that producing comics must be one's full-time, primary job, and never a hobby. Especially for experimental work, I don't see why that'd need to be the case. I'm thinking more of a couple of people working with whatever materials are on-hand.
In fact, requiring an industrial scale (which is where particular kinds of paper and ink are important) probably speaks against entering the field, since it's a small audience with dollars already divvied up between the big companies.
By analogy, I'm thinking more YouTube than Hulu, if you get my meaning. You can spend a good amount of money on a large-scale production like Battleground getting everything picture-perfect in hopes of getting distribution. Or you can work on a shoestring like Aiden 5 or The Lizzie Bennet Diaries (in early seasons, also The Guild, before Felicia Day was able to make is sustainable through sponsorship) because it's fun, and let the audience find you.
I won't suggest either model is better, since I actually liked Battleground, but the cheaper approach seems to work pretty well. For example, with only an episode or two more to go, this week The Lizzie Bennet Diaries is about to hit a quarter-million dollars raised on Kickstarter though almost four thousand pledges after two days, with another four weeks to go.