Digital Comic Museum
Digital Comic Museum => Welcome and Introductions => Topic started by: huedell on February 18, 2013, 12:44:19 PM
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I signed up here with a particular purpose in mind that I'll mention in a sec. However, I am indeed a comicbook superhero fan, so if you'll have me, it doesn't hurt to be a member here in an overall sense.
I wanted to possibly start a thread about my desire to create an online fan-fic Ditko Creeper graphic novel and potential partnerships with an artist to do this based on my detailed treatment. I look at it as a way to display any skills to the comicbook community/ industry, and to have fun too.
I've sent a couple messages to a member here already, but they were accidently misguided. I thought he was an artist giving comissions. Actually he's a fan requesting comissions. i should've done better research, but jumped on the idea of contacting him after seeing his gallery on another site linked in his sig. Apologies for the mix-up.
Maybe I shouldn't start a thread somewhere else on this topic, and I could get answers in this thread on a direction to pursue? Thanks for any advice.
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I signed up here with a particular purpose in mind that I'll mention in a sec. However, I am indeed a comicbook superhero fan, so if you'll have me, it doesn't hurt to be a member here in an overall sense.
I wanted to possibly start a thread about my desire to create an online fan-fic Ditko Creeper graphic novel and potential partnerships with an artist to do this based on my detailed treatment. I look at it as a way to display any skills to the comicbook community/ industry, and to have fun too.
I've sent a couple messages to a member here already, but they were accidently misguided. I thought he was an artist giving comissions. Actually he's a fan requesting comissions. i should've done better research, but jumped on the idea of contacting him after seeing his gallery on another site linked in his sig. Apologies for the mix-up.
Maybe I shouldn't start a thread somewhere else on this topic, and I could get answers in this thread on a direction to pursue? Thanks for any advice.
I would advise you to pick a character other than the Creeper who is copyrighted and trademarked. I doubt anyone would be willing to help you with a project which DC could ask you to take down at any time, assuming you do get to the stage where parts or all of it were posted online. You might want to consider substituting another character who has lapsed into the Public Domain. I can't think of any golden age character who would be roughly analogous to the Creeper with the possible exception of Columbia's The Face.
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Good points Jon.
Better to work with a character that is safer to pursue. I'm drawing a blank on a golden-age character that resembled the Creeper's style.
Good luck H.
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Generally, we'd also prefer not to be someplace where people try to conduct business. If anybody here is interested, they can now send you a message, though.
And obviously, feel free to get involved in any discussions, regardless. We're more or less not creepy argumentative weirdos, I've been told. Borderline friendly, even!
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Also true.
ComicBooks+ has a 'shameless self-promotion section that might better suit your needs.
http://comicbookplus.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0 (http://comicbookplus.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0)
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I would advise you to pick a character other than the Creeper who is copyrighted and trademarked. I doubt anyone would be willing to help you with a project which DC could ask you to take down at any time, assuming you do get to the stage where parts or all of it were posted online.
Is there a precedent where superhero owners have removed fan-fic that wasn't making any money from the Net?
Seems like anything goes with non-profit fan-fic unless I'm missing something.
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Generally, we'd also prefer not to be someplace where people try to conduct business. If anybody here is interested, they can now send you a message, though.
And obviously, feel free to get involved in any discussions, regardless. We're more or less not creepy argumentative weirdos, I've been told. Borderline friendly, even!
Much gratitude for the warm welcome! I'll take a look around, for sure :)
And, again, thank you for the advice, and I'm glad for the warning in order to have curtailed such discussion to this thread alone. Didn't wanna muck things up.
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Also true.
ComicBooks+ has a 'shameless self-promotion section that might better suit your needs.
http://comicbookplus.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0 (http://comicbookplus.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0)
Sounds like a good lead! Thanks, yet again!
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Fan fiction in purely prose seems to even be encouraged by the comic companies. I think they may get upset if they are actual comics. There are plenty of public domain characters available however.
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Fan fiction in purely prose seems to even be encouraged by the comic companies. I think they may get upset if they are actual comics. There are plenty of public domain characters available however.
Hmmmm. I'm a bit confused here. Prose? Fanfic Batman and Superman full-out live action movies and movie trailers are fine and encouraged. I can even go so far as to say they are certainly even celebrated by the majority of Net comicbook fans "in the know".... This place has a primary interest in comicbook superheroes, if I'm not totally confused here.
So, it seems strange that the consensus here in this thread is that the comicbook media form is somehow off-limits for such fan-produced things when there have been full out fan-produced film productions that have been universally approved by comicbook communities.
You guys HAVE seen these things... correct?
BATMAN: DEAD END
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBuSUUkLYSg
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Personally I feel it's better to do your own thing, that way if it's a success you can definitely profit from it.
On the other hand have you tried asking for artists at the various webcomic hosts out there, Drunk Duck, Comic Genesis, Smack Jeeves, etc.? I know The Duck's forum has a section for writers & artists looking to collaborate. I assume the others might as well.
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Personally I feel it's better to do your own thing, that way if it's a success you can definitely profit from it.
On the other hand have you tried asking for artists at the various webcomic hosts out there, Drunk Duck, Comic Genesis, Smack Jeeves, etc.? I know The Duck's forum has a section for writers & artists looking to collaborate. I assume the others might as well.
Thank you very much for the leads, Scrounge :)
As far as you "feeling it's better to do my own thing"... well, the reality is that I do do my own thing... but I'd also like to do this other "fan-fic" thing too - and not (as you suggested may be my goal) so I can profit from it monetarily directly, but to see if I can gain any kind of positive attention and profit indirectly with a different success strategy. As mentioned before, people do this kind of stuff every minute of every day, and they have been doing this for decades now. Apologies for the dramatic phrasing here, but I thought I'd make my intentions crystal clear at the risk of being redundant so that contributors to this thread realize my intent which seems to have been coming off unclear so far.
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We may sometimes seem overly cautious. The last thing we would want to do is have DC or Dynamite get upset and say we are using their characters illegally. While we are not, they can make it miserable. I am curious about their take on fan fiction. I would hope they take it as building fans rather than taking business. With the move to more and more web content by the major players they may be more likely to see it as competition, is my fear.
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The problem is that trademark law requires the owner to defend the trademark or lose it, so DC would have an obligation to chase after anything using their trademarks. They don't need to shut everybody down, but if they know about a competing work, they need to be involved, either giving explicit permission (which nobody is obligated to announce, so "so-and-so did it" isn't useful) or requiring a take-down.
It's a practical approach, too, even though it doesn't look like it. If someone produces a "fan" Batman movie that stinks, for example, the quality has the potential to reflect on DC and/or impact its ability to profit on future movies. Disclaimers can help, but the exception carved out for fan work went out with...I think the 1976 Act.
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The problem is that trademark law requires the owner to defend the trademark or lose it, so DC would have an obligation to chase after anything using their trademarks. They don't need to shut everybody down, but if they know about a competing work, they need to be involved, either giving explicit permission (which nobody is obligated to announce, so "so-and-so did it" isn't useful) or requiring a take-down.
It's a practical approach, too, even though it doesn't look like it. If someone produces a "fan" Batman movie that stinks, for example, the quality has the potential to reflect on DC and/or impact its ability to profit on future movies. Disclaimers can help, but the exception carved out for fan work went out with...I think the 1976 Act.
I'm presently a TV Film major at Cal State LA, taking multiple classes dealing with these issues, so I'm aware of all of what you posted.
But I'll point out that the totality of the first thing you posted is incorrect. DC also has a choice to do nothing, turn a blind eye, and count their blessings people give a dang about their property. A choice which DC makes constantly. DC also can use the top quality fanfic stuff to scout for new talent... which if they don't specficially do, other corporations CERTAINLY do. If you produce a celebrated fan-fic piece, your resume shines that much brighter.
Is there some element of negative risk involved? Yes, slightly. Enough to deter me from my quest to develop my Creeper project further? Certainly not.
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DC's turning a blind eye would be the grounds for loosing trademark. They may accept fan fiction if it is explicitly designated as such and allow it. But turning a blind eye would be almost the textbook definition of releasing the trademark. I think DC is allowing fan fiction because they realize it is an advertisement for their product. They have enough lawyers to protect their trademarks regardless.
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DC's turning a blind eye would be the grounds for loosing trademark. They may accept fan fiction if it is explicitly designated as such and allow it. But turning a blind eye would be almost the textbook definition of releasing the trademark. I think DC is allowing fan fiction because they realize it is an advertisement for their product. They have enough lawyers to protect their trademarks regardless.
???
No one would know if DC was turning a blind eye to a particular item and no one would know if they weren't doing that same thing. It's not like DC hands out "e-mail passes" to everyone they approve of, and concurrently sue everyone that they don't approve of. They don't. It'd be a waste of time/resources.
You are parroting copyright/trademark law and not considering that it does not apply to our conversation.
That is, unless you just mean that DC's lawyers have to be vigilant in an overall sense... but, then, if that's what you mean, we're back to my "No one would know" bit mentioned above PLUS you have to consider that even IF they were crazy enough to pursue action against fan-fic comicbook story online posters, that they have bigger fish to fry. Such as pursuing people actually SELLING things that DC has copyright to. And THAT fish-frying would fufill the copyright/trademark issue that you are correct in saying they'd have to fufill in some fashion.
P.S. I'll also add that you most likely misread my former post. I didn't say that "turning a blind eye" was a singular choice.
I said that it was ALSO a choice... as in "an ADDITIONAL choice" to the ones listed by the poster I was originally replying to. So, there's that, too.
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I'd like to add another post... instead of editing my last one.... because it'll be so long.
I have to apologize if any of what I've been saying in this thread comes off as contrary or antagonistic in any way. This is your community and I am a stranger to you. And you not only deserve basic respect, but, even more respect because I am so new to you.
I thought I'd mention this, to put this all more in perspective: Having a fan-fic version of this Creeper thing would be a way of seeing my work in adapting the Creeper story to a modern day realm in 3 act structure... and it'd be neat-o to see that.
But, really, my most reasonable goal would be to finish a moderately-sized prose treatment for a movie length a.k.a. "graphic novel length" Creeper story, and not to publish it online, but just to present it to the right people at DC or even WB, and see if my take on their property inspires them to take a deeper look at my writing.
When you look at it from that point, it not only seems more reasonable, but it also shows more of why and how I was going to do this when I first envisioned it.... basically, just a writing sample.
One more thing... the truth is that, even though I wouldn't think in a miliion years would DC care about non-profit online one-shot comic projects... there IS actually an aspect of my project that might make it an exception and cause a trouble-situation.
In my treatment, I retell the Creeper's origin story, and THAT aspect may be simillar enough to the classic Creeper origin that it might indeed might rub someone the wrong way as a market-place distraction from the real Creeper, if it was circulated online.
Superhero, sci-fi fanfic usually gets a pass from the big name studios... but, then again, they are not including origin stories in their fanfic projects. That's more dangerous of a move.
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We wish you well in your project H. We couldn't host it here but we wish you well.
We specialize in sharing non-PD comics from the earliest comics to Dec 1959 only.
I know there are several places that do like sharing fan-fic, etc materials so I don't think you'll have a problem finding a home for yours some day.
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To follow up, we're hard to offend. Disagreement is fine. Abusing people, we warn you and kick you out. You're a long way from there.
Also, I disagree on the trademark. While it'd be within DC's authority to ignore trademark infringement where they know about it, anybody they sue can successfully point to that single instance as an abandonment. I don't know what their position on the matter is, but it's...let's say "inadvisable" to know about an infringement and not do something about it.
Paramount, for example, I know pretty much bends over backwards for fans as long as they make contact ahead of time, add a pile of disclaimers, and accept no money for the work.
If you're not publishing, though, that's obviously all irrelevant.
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We wish you well in your project H. We couldn't host it here but we wish you well.
We specialize in sharing non-PD comics from the earliest comics to Dec 1959 only.
I know there are several places that do like sharing fan-fic, etc materials so I don't think you'll have a problem finding a home for yours some day.
Thank you Yoc. This "1959, Golden Age focus" is an aspect of your community that makes for a specfic slant, not just for discussion on how to handle projects based on pre-existing characters based on their ownership (or lack thereof), but also on my common knowledge of (and interest in) the fictional mythos of characters focused on in this forum. I hope to interact more on such things despite my distinct favoring of stories closer to the 70s. It's not unreasonable though that more Golden Age-ish
stuff would catch my interest because it's the foundation for "all things superhero" after all ;)
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To follow up, we're hard to offend. Disagreement is fine. Abusing people, we warn you and kick you out. You're a long way from there.
Also, I disagree on the trademark. While it'd be within DC's authority to ignore trademark infringement where they know about it, anybody they sue can successfully point to that single instance as an abandonment. I don't know what their position on the matter is, but it's...let's say "inadvisable" to know about an infringement and not do something about it.
Paramount, for example, I know pretty much bends over backwards for fans as long as they make contact ahead of time, add a pile of disclaimers, and accept no money for the work.
If you're not publishing, though, that's obviously all irrelevant.
Firstly, thanks for you and your community's open mind when comes to discussion "heat". I hope to post on more stuff in the future, controversial or otherwise :)
Regarding your latest, more specific point made mentioning abandonment... I have to concede that I thought the same thing while we were posting back and forth. And since you brought it up in this context, I'll say my own thoughts on that because intellectual property discussion is of interest to me.
Get ready for another dry, ramble ;):
I'm thinking that the DCU superhero scenario where abandonment would be appplicable in a context such as Creeper fanfic would be DC's lawyers anticipating a specfic chain of events.
This hypothetical situation DC would have to prepare for in the context of my Creeper graphic novel fan fic would involve DC having a legal battle with an accused violator (not me) of DC's Creeper copyright/trademark. This violator would be pointing their finger at DC and trying to prove that the ownership had lapsed due to abandonment. My proposed Creeper web graphic novel would not be considered as a potential tool for a DC-accused violator to use as grounds for abandonment unless my project was a popular piece, and that in the midst of the project's popularity that I was harming DC's potential to make a profit on Creeper, and additionally, that I was never sent a cease and desist notice.
And I think, even then, that DC could use the position (either lying or telling the truth) that since they personally surmised that my derivative project was not a threat to their finances (directly or indirectly), then that's why they didn't make a move to protect themselves. In other words, DC has a solid case for being covered against abandonment accusations. Like you implied in your post above, a thing like me not using their property to directly profit through some kind of monetary sales, essentially deflates the issue. It wouldn't be end-all proof of course, but in court, any profit made from my Creeper project (or the harm that it may've done to DC's property) would be more ambiguous and DC could fill in the blanks as they saw fit, contrasting my work (and how it affected them) with the work of the guy they actuallly wanted to sue.
One more thing of note, in the Creeper case in particular, abandonment doesn't seem to be an issue despite the character's low profile in the DC stable. DC actually seems to include that character constantly in it's comicbook releases, if only in background panels, every year or so. Now, I may be wrong that that covers abndonment issues. I don't know the specifics of what they have to do as far as the "rate of using" the character to cover themselves. But if the character was more popular, I don't thin abandonment would be an issue no matter HOW many potential violators were ignored by DC. I mean, Superman or Batman would never have the abandonment term connected with them.
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Hi H,
Have you tried looking for info on this matter at a fan-fic focused site? It must be of concern to all fan-fic writers no?
Perhaps someone has contacted DC directly and ask their position on such works? Getting it from the horses mouth would solve a lot of the questions.
BTW, there are others on DCM that enjoy spinning their own yarns. One I've worked with a few times when he's supplied introductions to archives I helped rangerhouse with here on DCM.
You might want to see what he's had published starting with this topic he created a while back - www.planetarystories.com
http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/forum/index.php/topic,2433.msg26228.html#msg26228 (http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/forum/index.php/topic,2433.msg26228.html#msg26228)
Also in our Links section another topic I'm sure you'd want to see - The Comic Book Script Archive
http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3663.0.html (http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/forum/index.php/topic,3663.0.html)
-Yoc
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In other words, DC has a solid case for being covered against abandonment accusations.
Ah.
We're both right. We're both horribly wrong. I forgot, there are two kinds of trademark. Federal, registered trademarks work pretty much as you describe. Common law (unregistered, regulated by state) trademarks work mostly like mine.
http://info.legalzoom.com/trademark-owners-responsibilities-25406.html
So there'd be less of a problem using Superman or Batman than (I'm guessing) the Crimson Avenger or Color Kid, counterintuitively as that might be. Since they presumably don't register the trademarks for obscure characters, they're obligated to defend those.
Someone should explain that to Disney...
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What type of artwork are you looking for?
Mr Goldenage
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What type of artwork are you looking for?
Mr Goldenage
To Goldenage...
Sorry... been busy and haven't checked back here.
I'm basically looking for a comicbook equivalent type of artwork to support a fanfic Creeper story, hopefully collaborating both on writing and art layout with an artist that likes my treatment for a Creeper graphic novel length piece.
On an offshoot idea of what I may do... maybe, I'll eventually make a trailer for my Creeper movie idea, like the many superhero fan-made trailers in the past. Here's my latest favorite. You (and DC) might recognize the protagonist (wink-wink):
http://vimeo.com/60594348
Or maybe, as mentioned earlier in this thread, I may never make my Creeper story public, and just privately shop a treatment to DC, Marvel etc. and see if they'll hire me for simillar work.
And to John, good insight in your last post BTW.
P.S. If I'm ever "lost" again, and someone needs to get a hold of me to ask questions or whatever, please try my direct e-mail at huedell@aol.com
Thanks!
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Check out http://www.deviantart.com/ there are plenty of artists taking commissions, some may be free. Good luck.
What type of artwork are you looking for?
Mr Goldenage
To Goldenage...
Sorry... been busy and haven't checked back here.
I'm basically looking for a comicbook equivalent type of artwork to support a fanfic Creeper story, hopefully collaborating both on writing and art layout with an artist that likes my treatment for a Creeper graphic novel length piece.
On an offshoot idea of what I may do... maybe, I'll eventually make a trailer for my Creeper movie idea, like the many superhero fan-made trailers in the past. Here's my latest favorite. You (and DC) might recognize the protagonist (wink-wink):
http://vimeo.com/60594348
Or maybe, as mentioned earlier in this thread, I may never make my Creeper story public, and just privately shop a treatment to DC, Marvel etc. and see if they'll hire me for simillar work.
And to John, good insight in your last post BTW.
P.S. If I'm ever "lost" again, and someone needs to get a hold of me to ask questions or whatever, please try my direct e-mail at huedell@aol.com
Thanks!
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Check out http://www.deviantart.com/ there are plenty of artists taking commissions, some may be free. Good luck.
Awesome resource! You're the dude who "got me here" originally. So, a SPECIAL thanks. ;) ;D