Digital Comic Museum
Help and Support => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: harlanames on December 10, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
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I don't want to deprecate the effort members put into "enhancing" the color on comics scans. However in my opinion the original scans often give a truer representation of the comic than the enhanced versions. The recent "All for Love" offers some examples. Skin tones, for example, turn to red or wash out altogether (I suspect this is because when page yellowing is removed, the 10% yellow component in skin tones disappears as well). Enhancing also tends to accent the uneven quality of the original printing, so that large areas of single non-solid colors turn blotchy.
The original newsprint in comics had a yellowish cast to begin with, which blended with the printing inks to create the "comic book look." That's why comics reprints on pure-white book paper never look right.
Personally I'd prefer leaving comics "as is," perhaps with minor adjustments to compensate for changes made by the scanner. Am I in the minority here?
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I prefer scans as raw as possible for archival reasons. If I want them edited, it will be for a specific project, and I'd rather control the output myself. If they're pre-edited, there are fewer options to work with.
-Eric
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I prefer raw also but I know many like enhanced. So offering both versions foots both bills.
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No worries gang. We will be keeping all original versions for those that prefer them.
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The recent "All for Love" offers some examples. Skin tones, for example, turn to red or wash out altogether (I suspect this is because when page yellowing is removed, the 10% yellow component in skin tones disappears as well). Enhancing also tends to accent the uneven quality of the original printing, so that large areas of single non-solid colors turn blotchy.
I fully agree with harlanames comments above, as it was me who tried to turn back the clock for this particular publication.
Sometimes Photoshop (on the trusty Mac) can be a little brutal with certain levels of colouring, no matter how experienced the user is.
I sincerely hope my last few efforts on trying to restore some of these old publications did not offend, as I just enjoy working with this type of media and for others to hopefully enjoy the end results.
On a side issue I have downloaded a Black & White publication, from this wonderful site, to restore and to also add colour.
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No worries Q, again, as long as members have a choice of original or enhanced version I can't see anyone objecting. The choice is theirs which to read. I've just added many more enhanced versions of MLJ books by JVJ scanner Jon.
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My own opinion, I consider it bad form to re-edit and re-release scans, unless you have the original scanner's permission. I consider this to be common courtesy. Most of us have been scanning for awhile and think we know what we want out scans to look like. Very irritating to see my scans sent through a whitewasher (I like the raw paper look-the way they appear to your eyes when you open the actual comic), and that is the way I want MY offering to appear.I do not want to see my scans with an "upgrade" suffix on the filename. If you want to take the time to acquire a rare comic from the 1940s and 1950s and to actually slap it on the scanner and scan it, then take the time to edit it, by all means jump right in and join us. There is still a ton of unscanned material that has not been touched from the 40s and 50s. /rant off :)
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"Enhancing" comic scans--yes or no?
Sounds like a good idea for a poll.
Ideally, and this is only my preference, if there were any type of edits that I felt needed to be made regarding colors, I'd rather do it myself. The settings on my monitor may be different than someone else's, so what looks good on an their screen may not look good on mine, and vice versa. I prefer to look at "natural scans", where the only editing that was done was some straightening, cropping and/or resizing. The only times I've felt compelled to edit a file I've downloaded were for a few of the fiche files, where the colors were too dark or the text was too difficult to read without some sort of editing on my part.
As was pointed-out in a similar discussion "somewhere else" (either here or at the other site), comics from this era weren't printed on pure-white paper. I don't feel that colorists from that time period were unaware of how their work would appear once it was printed. It's my opinion that if the colors are edited so that the pages appear white, then they are being pushing beyond how they would have appeared originally.
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My own opinion, I consider it bad form to re-edit and re-release scans, unless you have the original scanner's permission... Very irritating to see my scans sent through a whitewasher (I like the raw paper look-the way they appear to your eyes when you open the actual comic), and that is the way I want MY offering to appear.I do not want to see my scans with an "upgrade" suffix on the filename.
Ok Fett, I hope all upgrade editors have taken note and I'll try to keep that in mind if more such files turn up. Fett does Not want to be upgraded!
:)
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Here is my take.
I pretty much agree with fett here. I know that my own preferences aren't the same as everyone else's, but I also know that I (usually) like the way my own scans turn out. I also know that I can sometimes be a little thin-skinned if someone asks me to change the way I scan or edit. As fett says, if we are spending the $ and/or time to edit the books, we should be able to do it the way we want :)
That said, I will offer another option for any scan here with my nickname on it. I've saved the raw, unedited scans for almost everything I've done, and would be happy to share those raw scans with anyone who wants to try their own hand at the edits. This would most likely produce better results than taking my already-edited scans and trying to re-edit them.
If you want to take me up on this offer, send me a PM.
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I would also say I would NOT like my scans upgraded, some most of mine I edit, and someday, someone will come along and decide that all mine need to be upgraded. OR They going to brown many issues to make them like original.. or..
That being said, I know how much fun it can be to edit so of this stuff and put your own name to it. and I'm sure many users would love to get involved and dont have the resources to purchase and/or find these comics.
I do know that this stuff belongs to everyone (public domain) and it sure is nice to see my name with my scans at least while I'm still alive..
SOME day we will all be long gone,...
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I want to quickly chime in, but be warned that I'm not considering any sort of scanner rights. I love you guys and want people to respect your wishes, but at least in the United States, there's no copyright on scans. So please be patient with people who want to mess with'em, since they're allowed.
Purely from a reader standpoint, I'd also prefer the scans as raw as possible. Repairs are fine, but I feel that any "enhancements" invariably try to make the comics into something...false. We can argue whether it's better until the cows come home (and then ask the cows their opinion), but to me, the more you change the original image from what was scanned, the more it becomes the editor's art than the artist's.
It's worth noting that serious "upgrades" introduce a new wrinkle: Legally, it puts us in a gray area. The UK considers some sorts of mechanical reproduction as worthy of copyright (though a collection or collage/remix does not--go figure). It sounds stupid, but we all know of stupid lawsuits of heirs coming out of the woodwork to get some cash: Someone's trying to lay claim to some of Charles Babbage's personal papers!
On a technical level (Snard hints at this), also don't forget that every change you make (even just innocently rotating the scan, not that I don't want anybody doing it...) is a net loss of information. If it were to replace the original, that's an irreversible change, which is never a good idea. It's like magnifying a small image--you'll get really big pixels, but not a better image.
I think of color like advertising: Most people ignore it, but a few people are interested in only that aspect. If, in five years, someone wants to study the paper or ink in Golden Age books, it's more difficult by having pages that try to hide the paper and change the color of the ink. And like removing ads, it's infinitely easier for a user who doesn't like it to change the colors than change them back.
The discussion is getting pretty heavily stacked, here, though. Can someone who likes the edited versions explain the benefits? "I like the bright colors" is acceptable to me. It occurred to me while typing this that I can't think of a single reason to prefer editing and am really curious why it's a popular idea.
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The only caveat that I would make, guys,
is considering any scan to represent the original. If you have seen the same pages from different scanners, you would know that the act of scanning itself is very subjective and variable. Someone's modification of some scans might actually bring the files closer to the "original" comics. Also, some comics have been maintained more carefully than others, with paper that is whiter or yellower, depending, so a scan of that issue might be much closer than one left in attic for years. Some scanners (the hardware) are more accurate and more faithful than others, too.
All I'm sayin' is no one's scans are the ne plus ultra definitive version of the comic - so it's not wise to get too protective of them.
(|:{>
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Well lets hope we can get every Public Domain Comic Scanned in our lifetimes ???
I love to edit comics, its like a drug.. I cannot stop and never satified with the final product.
When I get 24 hours on a book I could kick myself, I got family, kids ... lol
I always think how would I want to see it? I ask my 16 and 19 year old kids what do the prefer... (thinking someday they will be the only ones looking).
I know I will be scanning 1st Capt Marvel JR (Whiz 25 ??) and another Master Comics with Cpt Nazi, those books I tend to put allot of time into.
I enjoy everything about Golden Age Comics and hope to get my Kids involved.
So I think in the end everything is great edit no edit.. Hell the fiche is sometimes great if thats all we have..
I guess in the end we all have to decide for ourselves.
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I just love that there are a group of us silly old men who share an appreciation for this stuff. The hours and dollars I've spent are worth for the enjoyment others get from them.
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I'm with narf on that!
I love Snard's offer of the original raw scans. Re-saving jpgs never looks good like photocopies of photocopies.
But there are cases where frankly the originals could use improvements and in Jon and the MLJ books, it's been years between new MLJ scans. It seems like this is all we are going to get. It's great he added missing pages on some which made them essential to add to DCM, but he's also done a nice job of adjusting some scans that had pretty dark, muddy problems. I like them myself but members will always have the choice of which they want. If were were to dump the originals it would be wrong.
More choice is always better than less. If people really think they can do a good job on a sub-par scans go for it. That's just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. But if an original scanner has made it known they do not want someone monkeying with their work I suggest we honour their wishes.
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I must admit to being very surprised and impressed by this forums passion for this medium of collecting, which I applaud.
For the record my last two 'editing' efforts have been with the original scanners permission and I can assure you all that I would never knowingly rework any scans without prior permission.
When I first joined this wonderful community I did publish a post asking if remastering was acceptable and a couple of members gave me the thumbs up to rework some of their titles, and my only intention was for people to enjoy the finished product.
I fully understand members have their preferences and will always ensure I will never rework publications without the relevant members endorsement.
With sincere intentions
Q
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Re: MLJ, I can upgrade a few to 300dpi versions. When I did my count for my "50th" scan, I had forgotten that I also did Jackpot Comics #1. I can upgrade that one pretty easily as long as I didn't scan it at 150dpi. I also have a couple of early Top-Notches, including #7, an issue of Zip, and a Roly Poly that reprints another Zip issue.
[Edit:] The bad news, Jackpot #1 is only 150 dpi scans. The good news is I can rescan it sometime soon.
-Eric
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Sounds GREAT Eric! Looking forward to them someday.
:)
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Re my edits of the MLJ scans. My original intention was to add missing inside covers and missing pages from fiche scans the latter of which Ontology (sigh I miss him) did for me. While doing this I enlarged some pages and modified colors. Since the scans were for me and a few other people, I felt there was no reason not to do so. Obviously I personally prefer my edits or I wouldn't have bothered to do them.
At various times others in the scanning community asked for these scans and I provided them my c2cizations. Anyone who wanted the original pages only had to merge my added pages with theirs.
About a week ago, Yoc found these scans on DC++ (not my share) and asked me for the rest -- which I've started to provide. As I no longer have the original scans, I really have no way of telling now which pages I've added or changed. So if you want just the added pages, you'll have to extract them yourself.
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Thanks Jon, I've been trying to list when your scans have pages added (now c2c) and which pages were missing for those that only want them.
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I've missed this conversation by some days, but feel that I should add my voice. I am not in agreement with many of you, I will warn you up front.
My feeling is that the comics we hold in our hands came from artists, but passed through the hands of somebody in the production process who may or may not have had much care about the quality of end product as much as they should, the printer. Depending on the publisher, the issue, or even the copy of the book, there might be mis-registrations, poor attention to ink levels or pressure on the plates (resulting in smears, blobs, or worse), crap on the plates preventing defects in color fields, paper trims out of square or askew, etc. Many of these defects obscure the art, particularly the mis-registration of the plates in detailed areas of the drawings.
Say what you like about the pure art of preservation of cultural artifacts. I understand those arguments. If a sloppy printer screwed up a nice page of comic art, and I can do something about it, I chose to do it. My releases are, after all, just scans...not originals. They aren't precious. That differentiation took place the second the book hit the scanner, however much or little 'editing' I do. All scans are copies, differing in exposure and color balance from the source.
In my way of thinking, I am trying to make the page look as much as it can as if the book were well printed and well preserved. Some of you will shudder to read this. I felt that this is worth stating, however, so that you didn't mistake my silence for agreement on this issue.
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Thanks for sharing BB.
What you didn't mention is many of your scans are 'raw' on release and might or might not be edited down the road.
Did you want to say if you were willing to let others edit your raw versions?
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Thanks, Yoc...good point, and better, a reminder to an important point I missed. What I should have mentioned was that JVJ taught me the good sense to make all of my edits in adjustment layers, leaving the raw scan untouched. I have all of these files, and I have always thought that the raw scans are something that we, as a community, should be archiving someplace.
And, no, I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they please with my work, with the caveat that they credit the source of their stuff appropriately, source of the book, source of the scan.
For instance, I will shortly make available Jungle Comics 138 fully edited. I understand that, for some of you, this is end product will be less than what you truely desire. I don't have a problem with that. What I would love to do is make my Photoshop files available to the community so that anyone could do with them what they wanted. In a similar vein, I would love access to others' raw scans to do with them what is pleasing to my eyes. I don't know that we have the resources available, but I have a hard drive full of stuff that I think folks would like to get their hands on.
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Hi BB,
That's a great offer!
I believe OtherEric has offered his PS files and perhaps another scanner as well. The ol' memory ain't the best at time. *sigh*
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Before Captain DJ got cranking on putting DCM in place, one idea I looked at was building something like a torrent tracker (a list of where to download, more or less), but for cloud uploads and curated. The only back-end I could find that struck me as usable was FileSocial, which might be worth a look for files like this.
About the only problem I could see was that it was geared towards Twitter (and wants to post the link to your account). But other than that (or if you create a throwaway upload account), it uses Amazon's storage, has no type limits, supports up to 50MB (probably not spectacular for original scans), and free, which is nice.
Here was my test case at the time, the copy (from here) of Air Fighters #4, if you want to check out the interface and download on something safe:
http://filesocial.com/7cfapg5