Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: KevinP on September 12, 2011, 11:01:34 PM
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You know, this is not how you reboot a universe or attract new readers. Bear in mind that these #1s are supposed to be FIRST ISSUES, and look at what you have as the so-called start of a new series: a guy who used to be a swamp thing, a guy who’s been kicked out of the Green Lantern Corps, a Legion that’s been “decimated by the worst disaster in its history” (WHAT HISTORY?? This is supposed to be the first issue!), a couple guys who used to be Robin, a woman who used to be Batgirl and Oracle, a Batman who’s dealing with legal ramifications of his Batman International outfit, etc etc. TEEN TITANS looks more like a reboot, but it has one of the ex-Robins and two other characters (Are Starfire and Arsenal established characters in this universe; if so, were there previous incarnations of the Teen Titans team?) The Silver Age was successful because DC created all-new versions of GA heroes whom new readers could follow from the beginning.
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Now, that said, I decided to give the DCnU a chance and come at it with a clean slate, instead of comparing it to what I knew. You have to understand that I'm a dinosaur who started reading GA when he was a backup in ADVENTURE COMICS. Gotta admit I liked GREEN ARROW #1. Unlike a lot of the DCnU titles, it's a clean relaunch. This Ollver Queen has NO ties to his past incarnations. The idea of an industrialist concerned about doing good as well as making profit has always intrigued me; unrealistic as it is (comics are fantasy after all). I even compared Tony Stark to Siddhartha on my blog ( http://storiesaresignposts.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html ). This Queen seems more involved with his corporation than Bruce Wayne, and I hope the bits with Emerson aren't a setup for a hostile takeover and a return to streetwise Ollie. Everything Ollie says about what he is doing and why the villains, er, punks, er, losers are bad reflects my own beliefs of what heroes should be like, without becoming the Dudley Do-Rights the 50s/60s heroes could be (which I still enjoy, but is not going to attract new readers). Best example is his line to Jax, "I wanted someone designing my weapons who didn't find enjoyment in discovering new ways to hurt people." Unfortunately that describes too many of today's superheroes. In a line that includes savage Hawkman, warrior Wonder Woman, Blackwater Blackhawks and bloodyhanded Red Lanterns, GREEN ARROW strikes just the right balance between the Boy Scouts of the Silver Age and the heroes of today.
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A clean relaunch and your recommendation means I may give GA a try.
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I don't necessarily think that a clean slate is necessary (there's a lot to be said for a "lived in" universe with a history), but I think there's a huge problem that the history of the universe is...pretty much what it was in January, except for the parts they're rewriting. Which...what's the point, really?
I haven't looked at Green Arrow, and hadn't planned to, since I can't stand the character (Batman clone, smelly Hippie, killer vigilante, gigolo...none of those are appealing), but this sounds actually different. If they can keep him and Black Canary (who I like even less) apart, this might be a winner.
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Just to follow up, I spent the afternoon catching up on some of the new books.
Green Arrow, I'm ashamed to say, I approve. I'm not fond of the in-your-face Apple comparison trying to pose as hipness, and the new costume...eh, but I like the character for the first time, and I get a kick out of his past reincarnations (the whiny liberal and the pissy avenger) working as his interns.
Mister Terrific...it'd be great if it didn't seem to overlap so much with Green Arrow, and I could have done without "look at these integers," which was probably a typo. But that aside, it's fast-paced and packed with weird ideas, which I haven't seen in a comic in a long time.
Action Comics? Granted, I had low expectations with Grant Morrison running things, but this is what Superman should've been like for a long time. The artwork is seriously muddy and I'm sick to death of the "heat vision eyes," but this Superman is "edgy" enough to bring the kids (and Alan Moore-worshipping adults) in without sacrificing Superman as a hero and nice guy. I hope it's to stay, and the little bit of Jimmy and Lois I see looks promising. New Luthor, though, stinks.
(However...he's still a newspaper guy? Seriously? Is that even really a job anymore...? I thought everybody just reprinted the AP and Reuters feeds.)
Hawk and Dove is weird. Bland story and apparently everything's still in continuity for them, but it's got good characterization that's surprisingly true to the Kesels' series, I think. Then there's Liefeld's art. It's ugly. Very, very ugly. Unspeakably ugly. But, it's also solidly done. Everybody may look like they're on steroids and have motorcycle helmets for skulls and bad facelifts, but the craft side of it, the storytelling aspects, are probably the best I've seen of the "new 52" so far, and a million times better than anything I've seen Liefeld do.
And the last I had time for today was Static Shock. I don't have any familiarity with the character, but I think I like it, for the most part. The story's straightforward enough to jump right in (and like Mister Terrific, started right in the action), but the dialogue...Scott McDaniel needs to meet some black people, I think, rather than, say, trying to guess what they might sound like by watching Robin Williams pretend to be black.
So, Justice League aside, and granting that I'm only looking at a handful of issues, the revamp actually looks surprisingly good, so far.
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As i cruise into week three, i've found only Action, Animal Man, and Maybe Mr. Terrific that I'd even consider reding again. It takes a boatload of prior knowledge to navigate these first issues. In my opinion, DC has failed miserably at creating jumping on points for their titles. The stories are, at best, mediocre. Considering the hype, these stories should have been, at the very least, compelling. There's nothing in these books that pulls a reader in and scream "buy me again."
I began reading DC in December, 1962. I readily admit that the true golden age of comics is 8, but I just can't get excited about what I'm reading. It would be tragic if the company irritates long-time fans so much that they lose audience, but I fear this may be the case. I'm only looking at second issues of some of these titles because I'm willing togive them a shot. I doubt very much there will be any titles in my future past three or four issues.
In essence, I'm shocked at how mediocre and mundane the stories are.
-Dave
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I think that's the one nagging problem I really have. Not that old fans will leave; I don't think we're a big enough market to care about. What worries me is that, for all the buildup, a lot of this is...just the next issue of what we've seen before, with all the worthless baggage it entails.
I just read "Batgirl," and the only good thing I can say about it is that I like the logo (that's another thing: again, all this buildup and your graphic artists came up with block letters rotates slightly?). It's the very worst of every single Batgirl story I remember growing up with. Faceless villains, moping about the past, irritating supporting cast (though that was traditionally more Supergirl), getting confused for other heroes, and horrific failure due to inaction before the eventual victory. And now she gets to flash back to "The Killing Joke" every five pages.
I guess it could be worse. I guess Barbara's recovery could be an unexplained miracle. Oh, wait...
Green Lantern seemed like a retread of old stories, too, specifically the run during Crisis.
Maybe a smaller launch would've made more sense...
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Well, here's one retailer bemoaning DC's lack of product to meet what sounds like a huge demand by new and lapsed readers -
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34535 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=34535)
He wonders about DC's same day digital numbers - I too am Very curious what kind of success that was.
ie numbers of digital sales before and after the relaunch.
-Yoc
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DC is being pretty cagey about the exact digital numbers, which makes me think they're trying to exaggerate it (since precise numbers are trivial with digital sales), but they sound happy:
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/09/12/inside-the-numbers-justice-league-1-is-officially-the-best-selling-comic-book-of-2011/
Interesting, though, that it's become "damned if you do, damned if you don't." Retailers have been complaining that DC and Marvel aren't pushing out things that people want to buy and under-ordering, now it's bad that they're doing good things and causing sellouts at twice the usual sales numbers.
I wonder how many of those retailers ran out and then pimped the digital sales, though, or if they tried to convince the customer to come back week after week for a later printing. If the latter, don't expect sales to last too long, since I don't think modern customers appreciate games like that.
(Wait. "Red Lanterns" sold out? Was the print run, like, five?)
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My LCS got shorted on a lot of books. How good is it to make customers mad?
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It's better than sitting on back-stock, at least, so I understand the approach. And that's my point: Did they suggest getting the digital book? That would seem to...if not "solve" the problem, at least lessen the impact better than "come back next week."
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Within the last 3 days I got to a comic shop and the Glasgow Mart. Comic shop Dave reported selling out on some titles and was doubtful if reorders for next prints would turn up. There had been more young folk coming in and he was really hopeful that sales on subsequent issues would be, if not be as good as #1's, at least strong. Punters I spoke to in the shop were all aware of the downloads but wanted paper copies.
Fans at the mart reported one local shop selling out same day but this seems to be the shop that's been cutting back on orders recently. Both dealers and fans presented mixed views, with some of us older blokes confirming our fears that this would be a jumping off point but there were a lot of fans, including some older D.C. nuts who were happy with a lot of the stuff.
As for me, I bought 6 titles, none of which were from D.C. but, as I have friends who run comic shops, I was able to have a good look at some of the new stuff and came to the conclusion that I didn't really want to start loading up with all this new stuff which carries the names of characters I've been following since 1959, when American comics were first distributed in U.K. My one hope rests with All Star Western next week.
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I've read everything for the first three weeks and was unimpressed. I feel that the stories were sub-par as origins/first issues, and even sub-par as story arcs. If that's the norm, I'll take a pass. Curiosity got me reading the titles, but the reason why I quit was stll evident: you don't need a relaunch, you need talented creators. Nothing stood out at all! If these offerings are enough to bring in and retain a huge new/lapsed reader base, I'll be the most shocked person around. I've thought about the long term effects of this gimmick and I think it really doesn't matter. If it fizzles, they're back to where they were in August, no big deal. Who really cares if Action Comics got to number 1000? It won't stop global warming.
There are, what, a half-dozen Robins running around, two or three Supergirls. More Green Lanterns than I can count. They've already screwed up any integrity the continuity might still have, so the hell with 'em.
--Dave
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There are, what, a half-dozen Robins running around, two or three Supergirls. More Green Lanterns than I can count. They've already screwed up any integrity the continuity might still have, so the hell with 'em.
--Dave
You've seen multiple Supergirls?
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Yeah. Some character named Power Girl, A non-Kara Supergirl, and of course my wife who puts them all to shame.
--David
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Yeah. Some character named Power Girl, A non-Kara Supergirl, and of course my wife who puts them all to shame.
--David
"Power Girl"? Really? Wow, you haven't read DC in a while ;-)
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I'm just trying NOT to picture Dave's wife in my mind.... if she can put Power Girl to shame! :-X
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Yes, my superpower is being the luckiest man in the world
--Dave
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Within the last 3 days I got to a comic shop and the Glasgow Mart. Comic shop Dave reported selling out on some titles and was doubtful if reorders for next prints would turn up. There had been more young folk coming in and he was really hopeful that sales on subsequent issues would be, if not be as good as #1's, at least strong. Punters I spoke to in the shop were all aware of the downloads but wanted paper copies.
Fans at the mart reported one local shop selling out same day but this seems to be the shop that's been cutting back on orders recently. Both dealers and fans presented mixed views, with some of us older blokes confirming our fears that this would be a jumping off point but there were a lot of fans, including some older D.C. nuts who were happy with a lot of the stuff.
As for me, I bought 6 titles, none of which were from D.C. but, as I have friends who run comic shops, I was able to have a good look at some of the new stuff and came to the conclusion that I didn't really want to start loading up with all this new stuff which carries the names of characters I've been following since 1959, when American comics were first distributed in U.K. My one hope rests with All Star Western next week.
I haven't bought a new DC comic in I can't remember how long (at least three years and possibly as long as five) but I'll admit the notion of a new "All Star Western" series piques my interest just because it seems so unlikely. I sincerely doubt I would want to see more than a single issue, however.
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Apart from being a fan of Hex and El Diablo from way back, I was intrigued to hear that Hex is in Gotham in a story which features the first drive-by shooting. Fingers crossed for a good story but I fear I might be disappointed. Getting old, I suppose.
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I liked All Star Western. I think it is off to a good start. It has me wanting to see what is going to happen. I can not say that for most of the other books.
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I read a couple of the new issues so far:
Detective Comics - Eeeww! If you liked the more disturbing parts of Silence of the Lambs then go for it.
Action Comics - Loved it! Art was way cool, and the story is of the first year Clark is "active" as a super hero.
Justice League - Loving it so far.
Justice League International - I liked this one better then JL. The dialogue seemed fresher and Jim Lee needs to look over his shoulder at this guy's lines.
Hawk & Dove - Very average, which I expected better from Leifeld.
Mister Terrific - Better then I thought, and story got intense when I wasn't looking alluvasudden.
Batman & Robin - Damian is awesome and any comic where he is done well is awesome by default. This comic does Damian well.
Green Arrow - Pretty cool, and I've never been a GA fan. I'm sticking with him for now.
Frankenstein - Definite potential. Love the concept.
Legion Lost - Reader lost (in confusion) What? Who? Why? Can we have any of these before you start killing characters off?
Justice League Dark - Wished they had Dr. Fate, but still cool.
Legion of Super-Heroes - One of my favorites so far. Great artwork.
Red Hood & the Outlaws - Starfire is way different but it is a reboot so I guess it's okay. Art reminds me of the first runs from Image comics.
Supergirl - Hate the costume, love the story.
Catwoman - Definitely different. Selina no longer knows who Batman is. But the art is awesome and the story has me waiting for next issue so good enough.
Teen Titans - This one blew me away it was so good. It does like JL and shows the "origin" story and that is a way different origin here as well.
Wonder Woman - Love the story, will get the next issue in spite of the horrid art.
Aquaman - This one will surprise you. It was fresh, suspenseful, and great art.
Batgirl - Great, and I'm a Stephanie Brown fan so I wanted to hate it.
That's all so far. I plan on reading GL-New Guardians, Birds of Prey, DC Presents, Batman TDK, and Superman as well.
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I hit a run that I didn't like. Blue Beetle (an origin? seriously?), Wonder Woman (eh), Supergirl (narration-heavy and not much story), Green Lantern Corps (too cop-heavy), Captain Atom (pseudo-cerebral), and Birds of Prey (ugh, ugh, ugh!).
Batman was good, though, on a lot of levels. I hope the book continues being "city-heavy."
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Charlie your description based on what I have read sounds like we may have some of the same tastes. I may have to give TT a try.
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The T&A fest in Voodoo was hilarious. That was a comedy, right?
I'm actually surprised by the medium to positive reviews. I'm thinking that now, in 2011, there are no more "Hey Kids...Comics" campaigns and that the material should be more substantial. I could pick apart what I don't like, but it's not worth it. The material is below being worthy of that type of analysis. Really not trying to be a snob here, but there's very little substance in these new titles. I mean, look at what it costs to buy one of each of the new titles! Don't you think for that kind of dough, there shouldn't be some riveting fiction? Is Bruce Wayne's adopted son even near being a believable human? Do we get Batman and Catwoman doing the doomed lovers thing again? Isn't there anyone out there able to write and draw these characters to the next level?
Sorry about the negative vibe. I am really disappointed with DC.
--Dave
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To continue making my way through...
I didn't understand anything that was going on in Blackhawks or New Guardians. I don't mean that in a "they started the action without me and expect me to keep up" kind of way, which would be good. I mean that in an "are we sure those aren't just random panels?" kind of way. New Guardians is made worse by basically trying to "clean up" old continuity with the relaunch instead of just leaving well enough alone.
Savage Hawkman suffers from continuity-itis already (did New Carter Hall really need an existing history as Hawkman?) and the new design is dreadful, but it has definite potential.
Firestorm was a disappointment, a mess of violence, teen angst, randomly-placed quips, pseudoscience, crapshoot continuity (again, in the first issue, is it really necessary to do this?), and a storyline that makes the hero...basically inconsequential. Maybe I just don't like Gail Simone's writing.
Superman...The story was pretty marginal, the new costume stinks, there's too much "tell" rather than "show," Clark comes off as a bit of a jerk (especially the epilogue), and the "article" narrating the story really should have been edited by someone who had, y'know, read a newspaper at least once. Those are cosmetic details, though. What's important is that it's (almost) the same fun Superman from Action Comics, the characters are basically interesting, and most of all, this is how you do a relaunch, diving into coherent action and introducing everybody as you go. Basically, DC should've led with Superman instead of Justice League and told the other writers to keep trying until their books were better than this.
Aquaman was the other winner by a long shot, though the art is absurdly goofy-looking and I think it was...well, "methinks the lady doth protest too much." I get the idea and enjoy it as sort of a background concept, but the entire issue was basically, "no, really, Aquaman can be cool. No, really!"
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Charlie your description based on what I have read sounds like we may have some of the same tastes. I may have to give TT a try.
The main thing I didn't like was Red Robin's new costume (looks like that old anime where everyone was dressed as birds). But the artwork was really good, and I have to get the next issue.
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Pulled from Newsararma here -
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gary-frank-curse-of-shazam-111017.html (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gary-frank-curse-of-shazam-111017.html)
GARY FRANK (& Geoff Johns) Try to Lift THE CURSE OF SHAZAM!
By Vaneta Rogers
The word was once a familiar American icon: "SHAZAM!"
And DC Comics is hoping it will be again.
For the next phase of DC's historic renumbering and reboot —- which already spawned newer, younger versions of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman -— the publisher is revamping its once hugely popular Captain Marvel property and his transforming shout of "Shazam!"
"Ours is a very modern Shazam," said Gary Frank, who's rebooting the property with superstar writer Geoff Johns. "As with the other characters [in DC's relaunch], there is a slight shift in emphasis here."
While the hero won't get his own comic, DC is strategically placing Shazam's story inside its top-selling title Justice League, beginning with January's issue #5. Titled The Curse of Shazam, the new story will be a separate "back-up" tale, placed behind the Justice League story that Johns is also writing.
Wasn't there a Year of Shazam not long ago when Warner was pushing for it to be another Timm animated show or something?
-Yoc
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There was vague talk just last year, I think it was, of rebooting the Marvel Family as Warner's post-Potter cash cow, though I don't know if it was supposed to be a Bruce Timm thing. I got the impression that the executives where heavy into the idea of it being more Harry Potter than Captain Marvel, so that might be what you're thinking of.
It could work, and it might fit the "curse" title. Or it may be gory and depressing. Or both.
Heh. Since this news is guaranteed to lead to a lot of angry fans, I wonder how much money DC could raise by selling off the rights to some of its lesser characters. Could you imagine the collections to "save" some character from DC's clutches...?
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DC says they've slipped some but sounds like they expected it and still are happy with the sales numbers.
A long Newsarama entry on it can be read here -
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-retail-report-month-2-111019.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=NA_10202011 (http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu-retail-report-month-2-111019.html?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=NA_10202011)
And in Marvel news I guess things aren't going as well - 12 layoffs were recently made -
http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/10/20/more-marvel-layoffs-include-pondscum/ (http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/10/20/more-marvel-layoffs-include-pondscum/)
-Yoc