Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: KevinP on June 15, 2011, 09:42:14 PM
-
Just curious ... Is anyone else as bored as I am that just about every super hero team book from JLA to Avengers is about saving the universe, the timestream or reality itself? Not only in the big summer crossover events, but routinely? The first arc in the current AVENGERS was about the timestream coming undone, then the very next one was about an artifact that controls reality. This makes a great plot if used sparingly. I think the first one i read was the first Kronos story in GREEN LANTERN, and it was an awesome idea. But it destroys all suspension of disbelief when saving the whole entire universe is just another day on the job.
-
I agree and I'm not even reading them.
Personally I enjoyed the smaller character development stories.
I recall 'filler' books like the Avengers one where Beast and WonderMan were featured.
-
That's why the only DCs I read (until the September restart) are Batgirl annd Zatanna. I like AVENGERS ACADEMY at Marvel for the characters, but even they, a team of young Avengers interns, were guilty of saving the universe recently.
kevin
-
Hmm, trying to recall what team books I've read recently. Legion of Super-Heroes, but that's not a title I can rationally discuss. (It's my one epic complete run.) Birds of Prey tends to be a bit more street-level, I can't recall them ever saving the universe in the book itself. (Although many of the cast members have helped in other books at other times.) Agents of Atlas, which I still miss, was never on that level either.
-
I guess I find it more acceptable than most, at least in theory. I mean, you already have most of the big-name heroes saving entire worlds regularly, because that's what they do. So when you put them on a team together, the implication is that they need to do something bigger, and reality is reasonably big.
On a less meta-fictional level, you also have a lot of obsessive reality-destroying godlings wandering around the universe pissed off at their last defeat. The surprise in-story should be that this doesn't happen continuously and there's rarely more than one threat to time-space at a time.
So, in theory, I'm OK with it. In practice, the stories tend to be pretty thin (Marvel's go-to is still to defeat the villain through the power of the scavenger hunt, I believe, while DC's is to mess with the timeline even more to prevent the adventure from happening) and the results are really the star, the stories just being excuses for a new status quo the latest writers decided they want because they can't be bothered to continue someone else's story.
To be fair, most of the stories I loved as a kid were on that scale, so I see the potential in it. And if I want a story about people in uniforms beating the crap out of petty criminals, I can talk to cops, so I don't have much interest in reading comics about that sort of thing. It's when it's used as a tool to write out unpopular stories, institutionalizing the idea that history is whatever the writer says it is without just saying it, that it gets on my nerves.
The stories that piss ME off are the "board room of doom" stories that were in fashion for about ten years. You know, where the villains (or, increasingly, the heroes) spent most of an issue following Robert's Rules of Order discussing how brilliant this plan is. You know what? I have meetings at work. They're not fun. Reading about other people being at meetings? Unsurprisingly, LESS fun.
-
The stories that piss ME off are the "board room of doom" stories that were in fashion for about ten years. You know, where the villains (or, increasingly, the heroes) spent most of an issue following Robert's Rules of Order discussing how brilliant this plan is. You know what? I have meetings at work. They're not fun. Reading about other people being at meetings? Unsurprisingly, LESS fun.
^-^
-
You know what? I have meetings at work. They're not fun. Reading about other people being at meetings? Unsurprisingly, LESS fun.
We should have a meeting about that John.
DCMembers ASSEMBLE!
;) :D
-
I remember decades ago when Marvel started going cosmic on a regular basis and I did not like it then either.
Birds of Prey keeps it more down to earth and is my only DC title. I regret Avengers Academy being thrown into the Fear Itself cross over crap. I am sure that the honchos at the top insisted.
-
You know what? I have meetings at work. They're not fun. Reading about other people being at meetings? Unsurprisingly, LESS fun.
We should have a meeting about that John.
DCMembers ASSEMBLE!
;) :D
Ow...
Wait. Do we even own a table?
Actually, down that path, there's a whole bunch of stuff I don't like about team books. Training, trophy rooms...writers really do have some sort of weird corporate fetish, don't they? I can't wait for the guest spots by efficiency consultants who suggest firing Batman because Green Arrow does pretty much the same thing but cheaper.
-
You know what? I have meetings at work. They're not fun. Reading about other people being at meetings? Unsurprisingly, LESS fun.
We should have a meeting about that John.
DCMembers ASSEMBLE!
;) :D
Ow...
Wait. Do we even own a table?
Actually, down that path, there's a whole bunch of stuff I don't like about team books. Training, trophy rooms...writers really do have some sort of weird corporate fetish, don't they? I can't wait for the guest spots by efficiency consultants who suggest firing Batman because Green Arrow does pretty much the same thing but cheaper.
Surely trophy rooms are part of the grand superhero team tradition, as all HQ's harken back to secret tree forts from childhood.
And don't call me surely.
-
I can't wait for the guest spots by efficiency consultants who suggest firing Batman because Green Arrow does pretty much the same thing but cheaper.
Roy makes a great point on tree-houses but John made me laugh out loud on that one.
And GA has a very hot wife too. Take that Robin. ;)
-
When Geo and I have our DCM staff meetings we generally just go to a local restaurant. Use their table instead. :P
-
Surely trophy rooms are part of the grand superhero team tradition, as all HQ's harken back to secret tree forts from childhood.
While true, there's just something seriously wrong with all-powerful heroes out to save the world hiding out in their secret, impregnable headquarters surrounded by tokens of past glories. And it brings up all sorts of questions like, how did they acquire what's surely evidence for a trial, who cleans the place and keeps it organized, and so forth.
Know what I mean, Shir--?
And don't call me surely.
Drat!
When Geo and I have our DCM staff meetings we generally just go to a local restaurant. Use their table instead. :P
But they get pissed when you carve your insignia on the chair back...
-
Surely trophy rooms are part of the grand superhero team tradition, as all HQ's harken back to secret tree forts from childhood.
While true, there's just something seriously wrong with all-powerful heroes out to save the world hiding out in their secret, impregnable headquarters surrounded by tokens of past glories. And it brings up all sorts of questions like, how did they acquire what's surely evidence for a trial, who cleans the place and keeps it organized, and so forth.
Know what I mean, Shir--?
Sure, if you want to get all real world about it, but when you're 5 years old reading that stuff, insurance premiums and due process (check out http://www.worldfamouscomics.com/law/archives.shtml for some real world analysis of comic book law, it's awesome. I wish I could find his article on a GA comic where someone was found "guilty in the first degree of murder") and other boring adult stuff doesn't enter into it.
How, exactly, do cosmic rays "mutate" an individual? How exactly does Spider-Man leaving a bunch of dudes strung up in a web lead to them being tried and convicted of bank robbery? How can Superman pass as Clark with just glasses? Why didn't Superman or Captain Marvel just fly over to Germany during WWII and end the war in an afternoon? etc. At some point you either accept the conventions of the (I hesitate to call it a) genre, or you don't. But everyone's "line in the sand" is different I suppose.
On the flip side, why do people ascribe homosexual (and, technically in this case, pedophilic) motivations to a man whose parents were murdered in front of his very eyes, whose very childhood ended that night when he devoted every waking moment to preparing to fight criminals, taking in an orphan boy whose parents were also murdered in front of his very eyes? Does nobody see that he wants to ensure that Dick had a father-surrogate? (Granted, they were sometimes shown in the same bed .... but I chalk it up to ultra-compressed storytelling ... )
On a positive note about comics, does anyone know the altitude requirement for sustaining a geosynchronous orbit? I bet a bunch of people do who were reading comics in the 1970s...
-
Because nearly every issue of the JLA began with 22.300 miles above the earth
-
Because nearly every issue of the JLA began with 22.300 miles above the earth
Yeah, baby!
"22,300" miles in the US, "22.300" in Europe.
-
It's interesting to see how the concept of the "super-team" was actually used back during the golden age, when teams were scarce. You don't find the Justice Society of America ending the war, but you do find stories like "Food for Starving Patriots," or you find the other relatively long lasting team of heoes, the Seven Soldiers of Victory/Law's Legionaire's battling the Senses-Taker or even someone a little closer to the current concept of a "super villain" with Black Star. You also see very little of any actually team work save post war when the declining page count prompted small teams instead of three page segments featuring individual heroes in sub-plot episodes.
It's remarkable how few teams actually existed in the golden age, even counting things like the Blackhawks, the Death Patrol, and possibly even the Target and the Targeteers.
-
It's interesting to see how the concept of the "super-team" was actually used back during the golden age, when teams were scarce. You don't find the Justice Society of America ending the war, but you do find stories like "Food for Starving Patriots," or you find the other relatively long lasting team of heoes, the Seven Soldiers of Victory/Law's Legionaire's battling the Senses-Taker or even someone a little closer to the current concept of a "super villain" with Black Star. You also see very little of any actually team work save post war when the declining page count prompted small teams instead of three page segments featuring individual heroes in sub-plot episodes.
It's remarkable how few teams actually existed in the golden age, even counting things like the Blackhawks, the Death Patrol, and possibly even the Target and the Targeteers.
The evil "Senses-Taker"?
Yeah, even the JSA was basically separate stories/characters joined together at the beginning and end.
It's interesting how covers would feature a bunch of heroes together (like "Four Favorites"), but not in the story. First time for everything.
-
Sure, if you want to get all real world about it, but when you're 5 years old reading that stuff, insurance premiums and due process (check out http://www.worldfamouscomics.com/law/archives.shtml for some real world analysis of comic book law, it's awesome. I wish I could find his article on a GA comic where someone was found "guilty in the first degree of murder") and other boring adult stuff doesn't enter into it.
These guys are fun, too, for those who haven't seen it. I got busy and haven't checked them in a few weeks, but that's me, not them.
http://lawandthemultiverse.com/
How, exactly, do cosmic rays "mutate" an individual? How exactly does Spider-Man leaving a bunch of dudes strung up in a web lead to them being tried and convicted of bank robbery? How can Superman pass as Clark with just glasses? Why didn't Superman or Captain Marvel just fly over to Germany during WWII and end the war in an afternoon? etc. At some point you either accept the conventions of the (I hesitate to call it a) genre, or you don't. But everyone's "line in the sand" is different I suppose.
I suppose, but to me it's less a matter of being picky about the story and refusing to assume that the comic world might differ from the real world. Things like a secret headquarters, to me, says the wrong things about the heroes. Luthor needs a hideout; Superman shouldn't.
And Superman passes as Clark because Lois has spent decades hiding the secret in plain sight by acting like a shrew who "knows" they're the same person even though she loves one and hates the other.
Or everybody knows and they just humor him. I mean, are YOU going to be the one to tell Superman that his disguise is stupid?
On the flip side, why do people ascribe homosexual (and, technically in this case, pedophilic) motivations to a man whose parents were murdered in front of his very eyes, whose very childhood ended that night when he devoted every waking moment to preparing to fight criminals, taking in an orphan boy whose parents were also murdered in front of his very eyes? Does nobody see that he wants to ensure that Dick had a father-surrogate? (Granted, they were sometimes shown in the same bed .... but I chalk it up to ultra-compressed storytelling ... )
The same reasons Frank Miller needed to rewrite Batman (over and over) as a disturbed, ultra-violent thug who's starred in the comics ever since. There's a large faction of readers and writers who, unconstrained by the Comics Code, can't conceive of an actual good person who sees the need to work outside an impotent or corrupt law. So they find (or create) fault to make anyone opposing crime who isn't on the government payroll a nut.
Remember the '80s, when Batman became brain-damaged, Superman cheated at football, Green Lantern became an alcoholic, and Hawkman became a murderer? Or was Hawkworld the '90s? I forget, but you get the idea.
On a positive note about comics, does anyone know the altitude requirement for sustaining a geosynchronous orbit? I bet a bunch of people do who were reading comics in the 1970s...
Raised on those comics, I won an argument over it with a friend who was both, at various times, an astrophysicist and atmospheric physicist. He was a hundred miles high, just so you know.
-
I suppose, but to me it's less a matter of being picky about the story and refusing to assume that the comic world might differ from the real world. Things like a secret headquarters, to me, says the wrong things about the heroes. Luthor needs a hideout; Superman shouldn't.
And Superman passes as Clark because Lois has spent decades hiding the secret in plain sight by acting like a shrew who "knows" they're the same person even though she loves one and hates the other.
Or everybody knows and they just humor him. I mean, are YOU going to be the one to tell Superman that his disguise is stupid?
If it didn't differ from the real world, superheroes wouldn't exist. The real world is mundane, I want giant robots and evil super-scientists.
And the whole disguise thing would work if superheroes and their secret identities didn't hang out with the same damn people all the time. Besides, it's not just in comics - doesn't Mozart have an opera (Marriage of Figaro?) where a woman "disguises" herself by wearing her maid's clothes - and her husband doesn't recognize her!? For me, provided there is some internal consistency, I'll buy almost anything.
-
If it didn't differ from the real world, superheroes wouldn't exist. The real world is mundane, I want giant robots and evil super-scientists.
I agree. I just find it annoying that writers push to be "more realistic" by making the heroes obnoxiously "flawed" and saddling them with fake legal issues, but don't deal with issues like, say, "why does a man chosen for his fearlessness and honesty hide and lie about his identity?"
I guess where I draw the line isn't so much in the setup as in the consequences. I'll accept the conventions for the purpose of enjoying the story, but eventually I'm going to question the decision and realize the stories could be better if they were handled sensibly.
And the whole disguise thing would work if superheroes and their secret identities didn't hang out with the same damn people all the time. Besides, it's not just in comics - doesn't Mozart have an opera (Marriage of Figaro?) where a woman "disguises" herself by wearing her maid's clothes - and her husband doesn't recognize her!? For me, provided there is some internal consistency, I'll buy almost anything.
Right. The secret identity I can (almost) agree with. People not recognizing them, sure, I'll chalk that up to a combination of people not questioning what's presented to them and "bad reporting." But when Superman keeps a secret identity "to protect his friends," who he then hangs around with in his OTHER identity!? I'll accept it's part of the story, but no writer is going to convince me that it's a good idea or helping the story.
Again, though, my big bone of contention is the secret headquarters: Hey, Batman, it's just great that you have someplace to safely hide while the rest of us are being slaughtered by the Joker to attract your attention. We're all proud to be sacrificed to hide the secret of your true face even though Facebook's facial recognition keeps suggesting I tag you in cellphone snapshots as Bruce Wayne and Anonymous hacked into your financial records to prove you own the Batmobile...
-
Because nearly every issue of the JLA began with 22.300 miles above the earth
and Adam Strange fans can tell you exactly how far Alpha Centauri is from Earth