Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: BobS on August 04, 2010, 08:33:49 PM
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Some of the early Target and the Targeteers "Bob Wood" art looks the same as some of the early Batman art.
Did Bob Wood ghost any Batman or were those Target and the Targeteers stories' art by Robinson & Roussos?
At least one of those Target and the Targeteers stories has names on stores/whatever in the art, like some early Batman art.
Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
Best to all,
Bob
Public Enemy #1
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I think there are few knowledgable comic fans who do not credit finger as co-creator. I thought is was Sprang how did most of the Batman ghosting.
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I think there is a site that lists all of Kane's ghosts but I can't recall where off hand.
Google maybe?
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Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
//As far as I know--no. Roussos came in very early and did a lot of the early lettering on the strip [I'm a comics letterer]. On a side note--when I worked in the Marvel bullpen in the 80's, Roussos was a cover colorist over there, I think he was...and I would pass him in the halls and think--Man, this guy lettered those early Batman stories---how cool is that? I wish I woulda said something--or shook his hand or something....but I was in awe.
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
//An excellent question--and I think it depends on how you define "comic book art"...I think he had a hand in it from time to time--sometimes not at all [the Dick Sprang stories--and earlier...the Robinson stories that he did solo]. The earlier the story--the more he may have played a part. By the 50's, I think, he was approving material--or something along those lines.
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
//I don't think so---the new look was typified by the yellow oval on the chest--that was pretty much Murphy Anderson if memory serves [at first, anyway]--and the new look was an attempt to get away from the Moldoff mold of the previous 12 yrs [prior to 1964, I think]....the alien stories of the 50's and early 60's are pretty typical Moldoff stories--art-wise, that is.
When I learned Moldoff did all that butt-ugly art, I was astonished--his Hawkman in the 40's was kinda klunky--but it had a kind of grace that was completely lacking in his Batman stories---only when I understood that he was ghosting for Kane did I get it--and I think Moldoff was ghosting for Kane without DC's knowledge, if my memory is right.
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
//I'd never heard that--but Kane was pretty much a business-man by that time, so maybe. For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
//Boy, the stories are all over the map, but I don't think Kane had much to do with either. He wasn't smart enough to understand their story function to actually create them. R and F are the likely suspects...and, honestly, I think Finger came up with Robin, and Robinson came up with Joker--but there may be some overlap. Kane was not much of a story guy.
It's like the fate of DB Cooper [not his real name] -- we'll never know the truth.
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
//Absolutely--If even half of what I've read is true, he was the one who shaped the image [cowl, color, cape, ears], character background, the atmosphere [borrowed from the very moody Shadow magazine]...and along the way created a mythos that Kane just wasn't equipped for. As much as I like the early Kane stories [much of it due to Finger]--I think Kane was a dick. His "creation" was a success and he took all credit. On the other hand, Finger was an introvert and insecure about his skills--so it was perfect for Kane to take advantage. Finger was enormously talented.
But Bill Finger will not be officially credited because as I mentioned earlier, Kane got a great deal from DC Comics from the get-go in 1939--sole credit. Something S&S didn't have with Superman...so their credit was dropped in the late 40's [I think in relation to their Superboy lawsuit].
Legally, DC cannot credit Bill Finger with co-creation due to the contracts.
They try to rectify it somewhat in collections and articles---but official credit will and does go to Bob Kane....even on the movies.
On another personal note--I met Dick Sprang---one a' my all time favorite Bat-artists in San Diego--man, in 1986, I think---I DID shake his hand and even got an autograph--even though I'm not much of an autograph guy--even when I later worked on Hollywood films--But this man--I HAD TO. I even wrote a letter about it to the CBG that was published.
Obviously I'm a Bat-freak--even lettered the Legends of the Dark Knight series for a few years [good times]--and there are lots of good Bat-artists along the way--Kane included in a weird way.
Robinson, Sprang, Adams, Newton, Aparo---whew! Good stuff.
Kurt Hathaway
aka moondood
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Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff, as Bob Kane had a contract with DC that he would be offered every second Batman story (and the yellow oval was a Julius Schwartz thing, that he demanded be used on all the issues he edited.)
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Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff, as Bob Kane had a contract with DC that he would be offered every second Batman story (and the yellow oval was a Julius Schwartz thing, that he demanded be used on all the issues he edited.)
Wasn't the oval because DC couldn't trademark just a bat? Although, what do they do with the current bat design?
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Acording to Julius Schwartz he had the oval added so everybody should be able to see exactly where his "reign" on Batman started, he demanded it from the first issue he edited.
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//Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff//
I must admit--I try to ignore a lot of those late 50's - early 60's stories. They're just not very good--and they're not Batman in my eyes.
But now that I think of it--I can "see" Shelly's work on some of those Schwartz-reign stories--though I think he dropped the Kane style and worked in a more realistic style--though one that I still didn't like. Shelly was obviously versatile.
Once Adams came in and returned the Dark Knight to the night, the character returned to its proper roots....a mysterious avenger.
And even back in the late 30's, I thought it was cool that he was called "The Batman"...as if it wasn't his name--it was what he was.
Even in some early Superman stories he's referred to as "The Superman"...and that's pretty cool, too--though it fits Bats more than Supes.
Moondood
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i]Some of the early Target and the Targeteers "Bob Wood" art looks the same as some of the early Batman art.
Did Bob Wood ghost any Batman or were those Target and the Targeteers stories' art by Robinson & Roussos?
At least one of those Target and the Targeteers stories has names on stores/whatever in the art, like some early Batman art.
Probably by Robinson and Roussos
Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
Yes, Sheldon Moldoff ghosted the earliest stories after the second one.
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
Probably around 1947/48. The Batman origin story from around then is by him. Shortly after that Lew Schwartz took over- but Kane tended to redraw all his Batman figures- so you could say he was still involved. I don't think Kane redrew Moldoff's figures starting in 1954.
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
The stuff signed by Bob Kane was either by Shelly Moldoff, Joe Giella or Chic Stone.
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
Probably.
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
Finger wrote the stories. Without the stories the ideas are meaningless
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.
http://www.dccomicsartists.com/batman/batwho.htm
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For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.
According to Men of Tomorrow, around the time the Siegel and Shuster mess started heating up, Kane came into the DC offices and demanded a new contract, claiming he was underage when he signed the first one. (He wasn't) DC basically caved because they couldn't afford the possibility of losing both characters.
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I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.
For what it's worth--and I realize it's not worth much, with only scant circumstantial evidence--I actually get the impression that "someone" used Finger to slip the Batman ideas to Kane with sufficient plausible deniability in case of a lawsuit.
Dial B gives a fairly good overview of Kane's part in things, including the reconstructed "Bird Man" and from what it "may" have been derived:
http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/389/
He then goes into the transformation from bird to bat, but it's a melange of weird, overly specific, and contradictory details. Webster's Dictionary, for example? The ears becoming a cowll? The gloves?
Of Finger, he says, "Finger was insecure. He was not good at standing up for himself, he was a Signaturesperfectionist who had trouble meeting deadlines, and was sometimes plagued by writer’s block. He would later develop drinking problems." Yet he remembers this clear as day, but didn't want a lick of credit for it. Hm...
Meanwhile, not far away, Norman Daniels had created (earlier that year, but as-yet unpublished) a character with almost exactly the same look Finger describes (minus the ears), the Black Bat, for Thrilling Publications. Heck of a coincidence, there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Bat
It was so much of a coincidence, that both Nedor and National threatened to sue over copyright infringement. Neither case went to court, though. Why? Because Whitney Ellsworth--who had just recently left National for some time off in California and had worked for Ned Pines a couple year prior--wandered out to broker some kind of deal which seems to have boiled down to "nobody sues."
Every bit of that strikes me as really, really suspicious. Maybe I'm too conspiracy-minded, but it all reads to me as if Ellsworth assumed the Black Bat (a good character idea) was forgotten or dropped at Nedor. They bring in Kane to supply the strip, figuring if Pines were to sue, the artist who, frankly, traces his only decent action shots is more than expendable. But Kane doesn't really pay attention, or wants to do his own thing, so he puts together "Bird-Man." Finger then gets recruited to push Kane back on track, or to "improve" Bird-Man by adapting features of the presumed-discarded Black Bat. He does it, but tries to keep out of the spotlight, since he'd rather not be associated with it. And when Batman turns out to be too much of a success to lose, then Ellsworth takes the bullet in private and leaves town for a year or two. (And later comes BACK to not just National, but Nedor, working on both Batman and the Black Bat in the '40s.)
Mind you, I don't want to malign anybody or imply that there's hard evidence to back my theory up, but this seems like a closer fit to what we know than all the hodge-podge elements that Kane and Finger cited over the years, in the same way that Superman's resemblance to Philip Wylie's "Gladiator" novel could never be discounted even as Siegel claimed he had never heard of it.
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Yeah...like DC claims Green Lantern of the Sixties derived absolutely nothing from "Doc" Smith's Lensman series. ;)
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John C.
If you actually tried to line your story up with actual dates, it wouldn't work. Ellsworth's west coast "vacation" happened much earlier than your scenario says it did. And nobody at DC (which at the time meant Vin Sullivan) had ever heard of Bill Finger. (Who, by the way, admitted he swiped the entire first Batman story from a Shadow novel).
Ned Pines and Harry Donenfeld were poker buddies. I'm sure any deal that was made was made at their level.
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If you actually tried to line your story up with actual dates, it wouldn't work.
Entirely fair, Bob. As I say, what "proof" I have is flimsy and circumstantial, and relies most on the overly-specific recollections that sound so coached. Whatever the true story, I really have to doubt that Finger took Kane's Flash Gordon knockoff and, through the wonders of a dictiionary illustration, reproduced a character that's almost identical (physically) to a competitor's upcoming product.
And I don't say that because they're both "bats," either. Victorian, Edwardian, and Pulp literature is littered with people posing as the dang critters, including a Spider (as I recall--I've got the '70s reprint somewhere) villain dressed as a giant vampire bat. I could believe similarity to THOSE came from consulting a dictionary.
Yeah...like DC claims Green Lantern of the Sixties derived absolutely nothing from "Doc" Smith's Lensman series. ;)
I can actually half-believe that, I think. When I read Smith's books (I forget how far I got into the series, honestly, so I might be missing the more damning material), I saw it as being "about" eugenics and genocide, in terms of organization. Some details are similar (order-junkies recruiting interstellar cops), and those might derive directly (or indirectly) from Smith, but it seems a stretch to me to say that the Corps were "based on" the Lensmen, for example.
But maybe I'm the one more focusing on details than the bigger picture, too.
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It's like this. Lens=power ring. Lensmen=Green Lantern Corps. Arisians=Guardians of the Universe. Eddorians=Qwardians. One of the best novels for comparison, and my fave, is CHILDREN OF THE LENS. I doubt DC will ever acknowledge this, any more than we'll hear Disney admit how much of THE LION KING was swiped from SIMBA, THE WHITE LION. My 2 cents plain.
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As far as Green Lantern and the Lensmen go, the only person who would have known was John Broome and he's no longer with us. Once again you'd have to check publication dates.
The Batman/Bat coincidence is certainly no bigger than the X-Men/Doom Patrol coincidence. And since the Batman came out first, the other guys really have no case. But obviously in both cases pages could have been lying about, people could have shown samples to other folks. Loose lips sink ships, etc. Vince Colletta got in trouble for showing Kirby New Gods pages around the Marvel offices before they were printed. I'm sure that wasn't a totally unique event.
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As far as Green Lantern and the Lensmen go, the only person who would have known was John Broome and he's no longer with us. Once again you'd have to check publication dates.
The Batman/Bat coincidence is certainly no bigger than the X-Men/Doom Patrol coincidence. And since the Batman came out first, the other guys really have no case. But obviously in both cases pages could have been lying about, people could have shown samples to other folks. Loose lips sink ships, etc. Vince Colletta got in trouble for showing Kirby New Gods pages around the Marvel offices before they were printed. I'm sure that wasn't a totally unique event.
As far as the GL Corps and Lensman, the "high concept" for both is "space cops", isn't it? Corps = police force, Guardians = bureaucrats, power ring = gun. Not exactly that complicated.
From http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_Patrol#Origins_and_X-Men
According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt:
"...I’ve become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months."
Doom Patrol rocks!
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Hi Kurt!
Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
//As far as I know--no. Roussos came in very early and did a lot of the early lettering on the strip [I'm a comics letterer]. On a side note--when I worked in the Marvel bullpen in the 80's, Roussos was a cover colorist over there, I think he was...and I would pass him in the halls and think--Man, this guy lettered those early Batman stories---how cool is that? I wish I woulda said something--or shook his hand or something....but I was in awe.
I wrote Roussos several times in the 1980s. He responded to 2 of my letters, and sent me a couple pages of original art he had inked. One was a Metal Men page penciled by Sekowsky and I've forgotten what the other page was or even if I kept it. If I even find the letters (I'm a totally disorganized packrat), I'll share them.
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
//An excellent question--and I think it depends on how you define "comic book art"...I think he had a hand in it from time to time--sometimes not at all [the Dick Sprang stories--and earlier...the Robinson stories that he did solo]. The earlier the story--the more he may have played a part. By the 50's, I think, he was approving material--or something along those lines.
I wonder if he had even that much involvement.
I wouldn't be surprised if Kane used ghost artists on Batman from the beginning.
Within the 1st year of Batman (in Detective Comics), Roussos was at least assisting.
Did you check out the Target and Targeteers story (with "Inky" Roussos as a character and Roussos ghost art) by the way?
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
//I don't think so---the new look was typified by the yellow oval on the chest--that was pretty much Murphy Anderson if memory serves [at first, anyway]--and the new look was an attempt to get away from the Moldoff mold of the previous 12 yrs [prior to 1964, I think]....the alien stories of the 50's and early 60's are pretty typical Moldoff stories--art-wise, that is.
Infantino pencilled early New Look Batman. I dislike the New Look even more than the earlier alien etc. stories. I fondly remember "The Alien Batman" and vaguely remember a Golden Age Batman story with aliens. Golden Age Batman even had a Frankenstein('s monster) story.
New Look tried unsuccessfully to get rid of Alfred, the Batcave, etc. Adams and Giordano had Batman driving sports cars rather than Batmobile.
For continuity on the 'Bob Kane signed' stories I believe Moldoff continued doing the art.
At one point (Batman daily newspaper strip?), I believe Joe Giella was doing the art -- maybe (probably?) he inked Moldoff New Look stories.
When I learned Moldoff did all that butt-ugly art, I was astonished--his Hawkman in the 40's was kinda klunky--but it had a kind of grace that was completely lacking in his Batman stories---only when I understood that he was ghosting for Kane did I get it--and I think Moldoff was ghosting for Kane without DC's knowledge, if my memory is right.
Shelly's Hawkman art was really primitive (IMO), and much of the faces etc. were copied from Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon. Many of the early GA artists copied from Raymond.
Frank Frollo in early Centaur comics copied Raymond too. Many other GA artists copied/emulated Milt Caniff. (Back in the 1960s Dan Atkins copied Russ Manning.)
My current favorite GA copier copied Roy Crane in Centaur Star Ranger Funnies etc. - Joe Buresch. Like most of the 1930s artists, his art didn't have much background art, but (IMO) he drew a lot better than Shelly did on Hawkman.
There's much Shelly art in ACG comics and it looks about the same as his Batman art.
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
//I'd never heard that--but Kane was pretty much a business-man by that time, so maybe. For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.
Siegel and Shuster had familes to feed, most likely. What could they do -- no sign their paychecks and maybe be thrown out on the streets. IMO, Liebowitz (especially) and Donenfeld were bad people, real-life villians.
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
//Boy, the stories are all over the map, but I don't think Kane had much to do with either. He wasn't smart enough to understand their story function to actually create them. R and F are the likely suspects...and, honestly, I think Finger came up with Robin, and Robinson came up with Joker--but there may be some overlap. Kane was not much of a story guy.
It's like the fate of DB Cooper [not his real name] -- we'll never know the truth.
[/unquote]
Kane did Peter Pup and Clip Carson before Batman. I believe Finger wrote Clip Carson tho.
Biljo White (a truly nice guy) I believe interviewed Robinson in Batmania. Robinson seems to have been a very gregarious guy -- and he tried to take credit for Robin and Joker.
Apparently Bob Kane got pissed off because maybe Biljo didn't contact him and give him the opportunity to tell his side of the story. I've browsed thru Kane's autobiography.
I too suspect Finger came up with the characters, despite the Joker playing card by either Kane or Robinson, I forget which.
I found an internet reference to Kane using a ghost artist for the art prints.
Kane has little credibility (IMO) due to his hiding his ghost artists for so long.
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
//Absolutely--If even half of what I've read is true, he was the one who shaped the image [cowl, color, cape, ears], character background, the atmosphere [borrowed from the very moody Shadow magazine]...and along the way created a mythos that Kane just wasn't equipped for. As much as I like the early Kane stories [much of it due to Finger]--I think Kane was a dick. His "creation" was a success and he took all credit. On the other hand, Finger was an introvert and insecure about his skills--so it was perfect for Kane to take advantage. Finger was enormously talented.
But Bill Finger will not be officially credited because as I mentioned earlier, Kane got a great deal from DC Comics from the get-go in 1939--sole credit. Something S&S didn't have with Superman...so their credit was dropped in the late 40's [I think in relation to their Superboy lawsuit].
Legally, DC cannot credit Bill Finger with co-creation due to the contracts.
They try to rectify it somewhat in collections and articles---but official credit will and does go to Bob Kane....even on the movies.
On another personal note--I met Dick Sprang---one a' my all time favorite Bat-artists in San Diego--man, in 1986, I think---I DID shake his hand and even got an autograph--even though I'm not much of an autograph guy--even when I later worked on Hollywood films--But this man--I HAD TO. I even wrote a letter about it to the CBG that was published.
Cool. I got letters and a signed print from Hal Foster back in the 1960s.
Obviously I'm a Bat-freak--even lettered the Legends of the Dark Knight series for a few years [good times]--and there are lots of good Bat-artists along the way--Kane included in a weird way.
I was a Batman purist for a long time. Now I accept that there isn't ONE Batman. I still prefer the 1939-1963 Batman (even with inconsistencies), but I also like the
Batman of Ra's al Ghul, Azrael, etc. I didn't much like Neal Adams' Batman in Batman Comics and Detective Comics but did like Adams' Batman in Brave and Bold - Bork, Hellgrammite, etc. Bob Haney wrote those.
Robinson, Sprang, Adams, Newton, Aparo---whew! Good stuff.
Kurt Hathaway
aka moondood
Bob
Public Enemy #1
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Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
Yes, Sheldon Moldoff ghosted the earliest stories after the second one.
Moldoff ghosted Batman from Detective Comics #29????
Can you point me to a reference -- book or internet link?
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
Probably around 1947/48. The Batman origin story from around then is by him. Shortly after that Lew Schwartz took over- but Kane tended to redraw all his Batman figures- so you could say he was still involved. I don't think Kane redrew Moldoff's figures starting in 1954.
OK.
Jack Burnley, his brother, and Dick Sprang, and probably others did some Batman art earlier than 1947/48. I believe Sprang did the alien story in an early GA Batman I used to have.
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
The stuff signed by Bob Kane was either by Shelly Moldoff, Joe Giella or Chic Stone.
Chic Stone, interesting. Stone inked Kirby on F4, did Nemesis for ACG, and supposedly did some Captain Sprocket in Archie's Madhouse (story I have original art of).
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
Probably.
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
Finger wrote the stories. Without the stories the ideas are meaningless
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.
How about Green Lantern? Gardner Fox solely or Fox and Purcell?
How about Clip Carson? Finger solely, or Kane and Finger.
Wasn't Finger working for Kane when Batman came to fruition?
I don't believe that Finger created Batman without Kane's input.
Once when he was especially angry, Kirby claimed that solely he created and wrote Fantastic Four.
I tend to believe that Lee had very little to do on F4 stories (plotted by Kirby) and nothing to do with the art.
http://www.dccomicsartists.com/batman/batwho.htm
[/quote]
Thanks for the link.
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It's like this. Lens=power ring. Lensmen=Green Lantern Corps. Arisians=Guardians of the Universe. Eddorians=Qwardians. One of the best novels for comparison, and my fave, is CHILDREN OF THE LENS. I doubt DC will ever acknowledge this, any more than we'll hear Disney admit how much of THE LION KING was swiped from SIMBA, THE WHITE LION. My 2 cents plain.
I think an early Alter Ego has an article on the Lensman series.
I like Silver Age Green Lantern anyway. Lots of cool stuff, not including "Pieface" embarassing racist name. I like the 1st GL 5700 AD story
I also like the GA Green Lantern -- including better sidekick Doiby Dickles. I like the humor and I like the MAGIC origin of several of the 1940s DC heroes. Harlequin was fun.
Bob Stump
Public/Darkmark Enemy #1
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It's like this. Lens=power ring. Lensmen=Green Lantern Corps. Arisians=Guardians of the Universe. Eddorians=Qwardians. One of the best novels for comparison, and my fave, is CHILDREN OF THE LENS. I doubt DC will ever acknowledge this, any more than we'll hear Disney admit how much of THE LION KING was swiped from SIMBA, THE WHITE LION. My 2 cents plain.
Merry Marvel Marching Society swiped from Mary Marvel Marching Society.
Aquaman swiped from Submariner.
Mr. Fantastic swiped from Plastic-Man.
Hawkeye swiped from Green Arrow.
Invisible Girl swiped from Invisible Scarlet O'Neil.
and on and on
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author=Bob Hughes link=topic=2087.msg23088#msg23088 date=1282335033]
> As far as Green Lantern and the Lensmen go, the only person who would have known was John Broome and he's no longer with us. Once again you'd have to check publication dates.
1st Lensman - 1934.
> The Batman/Bat coincidence is certainly no bigger than the X-Men/Doom Patrol coincidence.
Coincidences. I think not.
Doom Patrol isn't teenagers but is an attempt at Marvel-style characterizations etc.
>And since the Batman came out first, the other guys really have no case. But obviously in both cases pages could have been lying about, people could have shown samples to other folks. Loose lips sink ships, etc. Vince Colletta got in trouble for showing Kirby New Gods pages around the Marvel offices before they were printed. I'm sure that wasn't a totally unique event.
1st Black Bat - 1934 (Batman -1939)
Written by homeboy (that is fellow Virginian) Murray Leinster
Leinster wasn't fake Jewish penname for Will F. Jenkins
2nd Black Bat - July 1939, 2 months after Detective Comics #27
Bob
Public Enemy #1
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quote author=Roygbiv666 link=topic=2087.msg23139#msg23139 date=1282521459]
As far as the GL Corps and Lensman, the "high concept" for both is "space cops", isn't it? Corps = police force, Guardians = bureaucrats, power ring = gun. Not exactly that complicated.
Green Lantern's ring = Lensman lens, not gun.
Green Lantern Corps = Lensmen Gallactic Patrol.
Darkmark stated the other likenesses well enough.
Silver Age Green Lantern is DEFINITELY 'inspired by' Doc Smith's Lensmen.
From http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_Patrol#Origins_and_X-Men
According to Comic Coverage: Which Came First: The Mutant or The Freak?, creator Arnold Drake felt:
"...I’ve become more and more convinced that (Stan Lee) knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between (Marvel and DC). Therefore from when I first brought the idea into (DC editor) Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that (I was) working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months."
Doom Patrol rocks!
[/quote]
Teenage Mutants are derived from Wyndham's Midwich Cuckoos / Children of the Damned, and probably much earlier science fiction mutants.
I doubt that Stan Lee created X-Men. Rather Jack Kirby likely created X-Men.
Bob
Public Enemy #1
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One story I heard was that Robert Bernstein and Jack Kirby used to ride into New York together. Bernstein would pump Kirby for plots. Also according to the recent Kashdan interview in Alter Ego Bernstein had a big mouth.
Not that I think there's all that much unique about either the Doom Patrol or the X-Men. I could see Bernstein trying to get a new series out of Lee by swiping the Doom Patrol though.
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Merry Marvel Marching Society swiped from Mary Marvel Marching Society.
The only bit I've seen on a "Mary Marvel Marching Society" was in a Captain Marvel article Larry Ivie did for MONSTERS AND HEROES. The art on the "ad" looks more like Ivie than old Fawcett and the coupon, conveniently, is torn out. I've read almost all of the Fawcett superhero comics and have not once come upon an ad for a "Mary Marvel Marching Society". There was a Mary Marvel Club, but that's not the same name. Unless I see some substantiation from another and more reliable source, my guess is that Larry Ivie created that "ad" HIMSELF, to try and embarrass Marvel. There isn't enough real evidence that such a club existed.
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Shelly's Hawkman art was really primitive (IMO), and much of the faces etc. were copied from Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon. Many of the early GA artists copied from Raymond.
Frank Frollo in early Centaur comics copied Raymond too. Many other GA artists copied/emulated Milt Caniff. (Back in the 1960s Dan Atkins copied Russ Manning.)
Not to beat a very dead horse, Bob,
but Dan Adkins TRACED Russ Manning. I would have preferred it if he copied Russ, but his Dr. Strange is sometimes line for line Manning Tarzan with DS costume added. I got hell back in MCR #3 (or something like that) for criticizing him for it. People like Mike Kaluta and Jeffrey Jones (if I remember correctly) said it was just fine that Dan "used scrap" - wh ich I agree with. I just don't happen to agree with tracing, which EVERYONE denied that Adkins did, though it's really tough to deny the evidence of one's eyes.
As I said - dead horse and all. I agree that many, many early comic artists aped Raymond and Caniff through the early 50s. By then, the "comic book style" had replaced the "comic strip style" and artists were aping Jack Kirby, Lou Fine, Will Eisner, Wally Wood, etc. instead of the newspaper icons. Funny how CBs developed their own niche.
ps. I, too, have always thought that Shelly was highly overrated. It seems like a LOT of DC GA superhero artists have an undeserved (IMHO) reputation. I think Toth (for whom you will NOT find a more fervent admirer than myself) did terrible work on his DC Flash All-American stories. And Nodell's Green Lantern is, again IMHO, very crude and unappealing. It seems to be the characters who are being revered and the artists get to come along for the adulation - not that I'm a big fan of the DC characters (or ANY comic book character for that matter - HERESY, I know. Sorry.)
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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ps. I, too, have always thought that Shelly was highly overrated. It seems like a LOT of DC GA superhero artists have an undeserved (IMHO) reputation. I think Toth (for whom you will NOT find a more fervent admirer than myself) did terrible work on his DC Flash All-American stories. And Nodell's Green Lantern is, again IMHO, very crude and unappealing. It seems to be the characters who are being revered and the artists get to come along for the adulation - not that I'm a big fan of the DC characters (or ANY comic book character for that matter - HERESY, I know. Sorry.)
Peace, Jim (|:{>
I agree fully about the early DC artists. When I finally got the opportunity to read some of the DC stories from the 40s, I couldn't believe how crude so much of the art was (especially in comparison with the great stuff that was appearing in books from companies like Quality and Fiction House at the same time). I guess my expectations had been colored by the reverence for the material that Roy Thomas showed All-Star Squadron, which was one of my favorites as a kid; but the disappointment when I saw the hack jobs that featured the Atom, Dr. Fate, and Star-Spangled Kid was intense. There are a couple of artists who worked for DC at the time that I find interesting (Bernard Baily, Creig Flessel, Jack Burnley), but there is so much terrible art that it can be really hard to work one's way all the way through the giant anthology issues of the time.
I suppose I should add that this is just my opinion; but really, is there anyone who would actually defend this work?
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Interesting coincidence here -
I happened to save some Mary Marvel Club scans from the Pop Culture site IIRC.
Here you go!
(CLICK on THUMBNAIL to see full size images)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img832/808/194546marymarvel00envel.th.jpg) (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel00envel.jpg/)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img52/1221/194546marymarvel01fancl.th.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel01fancl.jpg/) (http://a.imageshack.us/img844/8336/194546marymarvel02badge.th.jpg) (http://img844.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel02badge.jpg/)
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So why is this sorting under the Bob Kane and His Ghost Artists thread, Yoc?
???
(|:{>
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We are all to tried tonight I think Jim, that's why.
Geo
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I posted the pics in reply to DM's post in Reply #24 Jim.
-Yoc
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Interesting coincidence here -
I happened to save some Mary Marvel Club scans from the Pop Culture site IIRC.
Here you go!
(CLICK on THUMBNAIL to see full size images)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img832/808/194546marymarvel00envel.th.jpg) (http://img832.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel00envel.jpg/)
(http://a.imageshack.us/img52/1221/194546marymarvel01fancl.th.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel01fancl.jpg/) (http://a.imageshack.us/img844/8336/194546marymarvel02badge.th.jpg) (http://img844.imageshack.us/i/194546marymarvel02badge.jpg/)
NOW I get it, Yoc,
two things:
1. you changed the topic title, which threw me
&
b. you didn't quote the post you were responding to
and
iii. (among the many.... NOBODY Expects the Span... no that's another topic) it was late.
Peace (and misunderstanding) Jim (|:{>
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Sorry for the confusion Jim.
:)
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I doubt that Stan Lee created X-Men. Rather Jack Kirby likely created X-Men.
Bob
Public Enemy #1
Trying to figure out what Stan did and what Jack did is like trying to pry Lennon apart from McCartney.
Leaving aside the fact that the X-Men is a Kirby kid gang and a Fantastic Four wannabe, the central most original character is Prof X. I highly doubt Jack created a man in a wheel chair (or even stole a man in a wheel chair). It's just too un-Kirby a concept. Now a man in a Flying Wheelchair I would believe was Kirby's. (After all he's created two of them). Magneto and the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Those I'll believe are Kirby's.