Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: kusunoki on May 13, 2010, 09:53:44 AM
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I realize it's a bit of trite topic, and probably also done to death on other sites, but I figured it might spark a good conversation. My own list suffers due to my relative lack of experience in golden age reading (which thanks to this site has gone leagues from "no experience whatsoever"). It may seem trite and obvious, but here we go. It's in no order, but I am sticking to only 5 whose work can be found in the archive.
S&K-whose golden age output I am starting to like as much (or more) than Kirby's later work
Mort Meskin-the most criminally underappreciated artist ever, in my humble opinion
Alex Toth-every panel I have ever seen by Toth is gold, and they turn to platinum when viewed in sequence
Mac Raboy-even among the very capable artists in the Fawcett stable, Raboy's work jumps out in a way that is breathtaking
Reed Crandall-I first saw Crandall's work in EC books, where it didn't really impress me, but his earlier stuff is stunning
Well, I'll stand with those five, but I have to add a couple honorable mentions.
Harry Lucey-even before he did the best (the only good?) Archie stories, his superhero stuff was already remarkable
Frank Frazetta-did some reading after the bad news and am gaining a new appreciation for his comics work
Jerry Grandenetti-always on my list of top artists, but I haven't seen any golden age stuff to match his twisted silver age work
How about everyone else? If you had to pick five, who would it be?
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I don't know that I would want to pick just five. Candidates for a small, select group who come to mind immediately are Meskin, Raboy, Reed Crandall, Eisner, Sheldon Moldoff, Ken Battlefield (a real workhorse), Walt Kelly, and the list could go on and on. I appreciate the attempt to generate some conversation, and there's always going to be an artist I don't appreciate as much as I should, so I hope this does spark some discussion.
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I have always found it hard to rank any of my favorites. I like what I like at the time. There is a reason the big names are the big names. Interesting that so far Meskin has been on both lists but not Lou Fine who is usually listed with Crandall. I remember the first time I saw a Moldoff Hawkman and was blown away. Kubert is unquestionably good but Moldoff's was better to me. At one time I appreciated Powell's bold figures but he no longer appeals to me. Then you have the painted cover artists like Savatt and Wilson who are hard to rank as opposed to inside illustrations. When you throw in differences in genre you run into different issues. How do you compare a Wolverton to an Eisner? I think Crumb was probably a Wolverton fan. Ayers never tops my list except for his Ghost Rider. I think it is much easier to stand out as a bright garrish superhero artist than a crime or romance artist. Matt Baker would have to top any list as long as women were in the story. I guess what I would have to say is my favorites are variable and fluid.
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I don't think I can even come close to creating a list of "top 5". What I can do is list my personal favorites; the ones whose work I seek out. Sheldon Mayer and Walt Kelly are far and away the top of that list. Wally Wood, Frank Frazetta, and Matt Baker are at least currently my top looked for artists beyond the top two; but that can change at any time.
Narf, remind me to scan and mail you a picture of a piece of art I own sometime, if you're a Moldoff fan.
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Since I'm omnivorous when it comes to "seeking out the work", I can't use OtherEric's criteria. And, since I've never understood the concept behind some arbitrary limitation on such a list, I'll tell you the guys I've cared enough about to create, or materially participate in the creation of, an index of their work:
1. Al Williamson (Al Williamson: His Work - 1971)
2. Russ Manning (Much About Manning - Apa-5 1972)
3. Jeffrey Jones (A Touch of the Jones - Apa-5 1972)
4. Bernie Krigstein (Squa Tront #6 - 1975)
5. John Severin (index 1981 - published Squa Tront #11 2005)
6. Frank Frazetta (FF Index - 1980)
7. Alex Toth (Indispensable Index - 1984)
8. Jack Kirby (Art of Jack Kirby - Blue Rose Press 1993)
9. John Buscema (w/Michel Maillot 1994)
10. Wally Wood (Wallace Wood Checklist w/Bhob Stewart & Co. 2003)
With the exception of Jeff Jones, I'd say that's a fairly decent list of my top comic book artists. One of the truly nice things about my collection is that it's been open to serious researchers for decades and there are probably a half-dozen more indices I've worked on that slipped my mind (and hence the list).
(EDIT) See, I just reread OtherEric's post and forgot that I've done a Matt Baker checklist, too. Should be out this fall from TwoMorrows.
If we can only list five, consider the first half to be mine and the second the choices of my evil twin.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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There were so many good artists in the golden age, it is indeed hard to put just 5 at the top but I would definitely put Eisner and Kirby and Cole in the group not just due the high quality of their own work but because they influenced others so much and brought up the overall quality of golden age comics immensely. They brought such things as very well done and stylistic spash panels into comics and in no time at all, the flat and simplistic artwork of the early golden age--1936-1941 more or less--blossumed into a dazzling array of form and style.
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Any discussion of top Golden Age artists ought to include Hal Foster, Alex Raymond & Burne Hogarth even though they came out of the strips, because those three were so influential upon Adventure comics art in general.
It's impossible not to include the likes of Windsor McCay, Carl Barks, EC Segar, VT Hamlin, Walt Kelly and George McManus in this discussion...
If we're talking 30s-50s as defining Golden Age, because Eisner, Fine, Kirby, Crandall, Schomberg, Wolverton, the EC crowd, Maneely, Powell, Kubert, Heath and a TON of others all have and deserve their adherents. Top FIVE? JVJ had 10 in his top 5, but I'm inclined to list 50.
Anyway, it's the less known guys that get me excited--who here knows Sid Check? (Harvey, Atlas horror) Everett Raymond Kinstler? (Avon) I'm fond of Howard Nostrand (Harvey), Jay Disbrow (Fiction House, Star), Mort Lawrence (Atlas)...and with the wonderful and diverse selection of material at DCM to investigate, I'll be adding names to THAT list for some time to come!
My apologies if I've frayed my end of this thread by listing too many Names.
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Can' forget Fujitani one of the guys I really like
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Man, I think I shot myself in the foot with this whole stop at 5 thing. I subconsciously buried the guys I identify with EC, as none of that is up on the site; but that made me overlook two of my all-time faves: Bernie Krigstein and Johnny Craig. Krigstein's work is simply unbelievable. While I love all of the wide range of styles I've seen him apply to stories, it is the best of his EC work that I think represents his finest work (and some of the finest comics work I've ever seen). The celebrated "Master Race" deserves its reputation, but I think the less well-known stories "Key Chain" and "'Till Death Do Us Part" are every bit as good. Unlike Krigstein, I don't think I have ever seen any pre-1960s non-EC work by Craig, but his stuff in Crime Suspenstories, Vault of Horror, and then all over the New Direction books just blows me away. I had thought that Craig's work was criminally overlooked, but I have seen comments here and there in the last few years that suggests that there is a great deal of appreciation for him out there.
Well, it looks like the top 5 theme was a bit of a bust, but in its defense, I actually saw it as a bit of a desert island thought experiment deal. Thinking in terms of what I might have put in, I realized that, while I like the work of artists like Russ Heath, Joe Maneely, and Bill Everett a great deal, if I had to really think about it, I didn't like their work as much as that of the artists I put on my original list. Oh well, despite the failings of the original theme, it seems to have spawned an interesting discussion of artists.
Glad to see so much love for Meskin, too ;)
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If I modify this from "top five" to favorite five, my list would probably include Simon-Kirby (I'll count them as a unit), Eisner (though the Eisner shop art really varied in quality when Eisner wasn't directly involved), Klaus Nordling (Lady Luck and the Barker), Matt Baker (though I now realize that half of the stuff I always thought was Baker's work was probably Iger shop work with guys _doing_ Baker's style), and Rudy Palais (some really over the top stuff, especially in the horror comics). This leaves out many of my other favorites (Severin, Heath, pretty much all the top EC artists, the women artists who worked for Fiction House, Meskin yes, several St. John artists, and the list could go on and on.) I'm not especially into super-heroes, so my list is a bit thin on the artists who are most noted for those.
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You have a higher opinion of Joe Simon's contribution to the team than I do, Poztron. I believe, like Stan Lee, that Simon was an enabler. He made it possible for Kirby to shine. How much he contributed to the actual art is debatable. He spent 15 years training people to ink Jack Kirby like Joe Simon, so it's difficult to tell when it's his inks or a successful student.
Klaus Nordling was, IMHO, a consistent, thoroughly professional journeyman. He did good work, but never left me wanting more - which, I guess, is my personal criteria for a great artist. I've never bought a book because it had Joe Simon in it, nor because it had Klaus Nordling. I've bought dozens, if not hundreds, for Baker or Kirby.
Rudy Palais was originally an inker of or highly influenced by the young Reed Crandall at the Iger Shop. I've always liked his work at Ace in the mid-late '40s where he might have been inked by or influenced by Warren Kremer. By the '50s, his sweating villains had become a mockery for me. I prefer the earlier Palais.
Artists I really enjoy, but are "Great Unknowns" to the majority of comic fans are: Arthur E. Jameson, Ray Willner, Munson Paddock, Harry Anderson, the aforementioned Warren Kremer doing serious stuff, and a half-dozen more whose names I don't even know.
I like Sid Check, but he's too variable and never quite lived up to his (IMHO) potential. Gray Morrow's 1950s work is stupendous and all too often overlooked.
I've never liked to make a "favorites" list because the work of most artists varies over time, like Kremer. I prefer a certain period to others. Matt Baker in 1944 and 1959 is not so great, but Matt Baker in 1950-56 can't be beat. Some, like Al Williamson, brought a verve to anything they did, be it Toby John Wayne stores, EC sf classics, Atlas jungle girls, Charlton quick and dirty westerns or King Flash Gordons. I love it all. It's only when he adopts the John Prentice a la Alex Raymond style that he loses me. The art is great, but the life is missing. Some Maxwell Elkan strips are masterpieces, others mediocre at best. Early, pre-1946 Krigstein is crude beyond belief, but by 1948 he's a master who was never truly recognized later by Gaines and Feldstein and never understood by Kurtzman, the man with whom he SHOULD have had the most in common.
I quite literally woke up one morning circa 1974 and suddenly "GOT" Alex Toth. Up til then, I'd never understood the fuss. I guess I had to grow up. Within a year I'd acquired almost everything he'd done from 1949 to 1960. He and Williamson are passionate favorites.
The list and the rambling go on....
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You have a higher opinion of Joe Simon's contribution to the team than I do, Poztron. I believe, like Stan Lee, that Simon was an enabler. He made it possible for Kirby to shine. How much he contributed to the actual art is debatable. He spent 15 years training people to ink Jack Kirby like Joe Simon, so it's difficult to tell when it's his inks or a successful student.
Certainly the bulk of the S-K art credit has to go to Kirby. Simon was an OK inker (better than some Marvel later had inking Kirby, like, oh, "George Bell") but the golden age Kirby art that was my faves was usually S-K, so I think of them as a unit. Enabling Kirby to shine is worthy in its own right, though.
Klaus Nordling was, IMHO, a consistent, thoroughly professional journeyman. He did good work, but never left me wanting more - which, I guess, is my personal criteria for a great artist. I've never bought a book because it had Joe Simon in it, nor because it had Klaus Nordling. I've bought dozens, if not hundreds, for Baker or Kirby.
It is funny how one person's taste can differ so much from another's. Part of what I like about Nordling's Quality stories is that, as far as I know, he was both writer and artist and there was a perfect melding of story and art. As with Cole's Plastic Man (another big fave), Nordling's Lady Luck and The Barker stories have humor threaded throughout, which I love. Back in the early 70's, when I could pick up reading copies of The Barker for a couple bucks a piece, I got all the Barker issues except one, I believe. Charming characters in a neat little universe.
Rudy Palais was originally an inker of or highly influenced by the young Reed Crandall at the Iger Shop. I've always liked his work at Ace in the mid-late '40s where he might have been inked by or influenced by Warren Kremer. By the '50s, his sweating villains had become a mockery for me. I prefer the earlier Palais.
I like it all. In some ways I prefer the later Palais art, precisely for its over-heated qualities. Go figure. I was oblivious to him until I became better acquainted with his work through Alter Ego, Tales Too Terrible to Tell (horror reprint series), and GAC, etc. In hindsight, he seems a precursor of a certain strain of underground comix (Greg Irons comes to mind) in the same way that Ghastly Engels was.
I've never liked to make a "favorites" list because the work of most artists varies over time, like Kremer. I prefer a certain period to others. Matt Baker in 1944 and 1959 is not so great, but Matt Baker in 1950-56 can't be beat. Some, like Al Williamson, brought a verve to anything they did, be it Toby John Wayne stores, EC sf classics, Atlas jungle girls, Charlton quick and dirty westerns or King Flash Gordons. I love it all. It's only when he adopts the John Prentice a la Alex Raymond style that he loses me. The art is great, but the life is missing. Some Maxwell Elkan strips are masterpieces, others mediocre at best. Early, pre-1946 Krigstein is crude beyond belief, but by 1948 he's a master who was never truly recognized later by Gaines and Feldstein and never understood by Kurtzman, the man with whom he SHOULD have had the most in common.
Williamson was an artist I could enjoy and appreciate, but he was never one of my top five or even ten. He's one of those artists that seemed to me to be "too good" for the crappy printing that most comics suffered from. Some artists like Eisner compensated for the lousy printing by going for bold line-work. But Williamson had a lot of delicate line-work that, more often than not, got massacred by the crude coloring and printing. Frazetta also suffered from this, too often.
The thing is that in my case, when I was a young UG artist learning how to construct decent stories (in a milieu that favored all-in-one artist creators who also wrote and lettered their own work), I found myself learning more of what I wanted to be able to do from Eisner, Cole, Kurtzman, and Nordling, than from artists like Williamson (whose style I didn't wish to emulate, mostly because I felt little capacity for that style).
I quite literally woke up one morning circa 1974 and suddenly "GOT" Alex Toth. Up til then, I'd never understood the fuss. I guess I had to grow up. Within a year I'd acquired almost everything he'd done from 1949 to 1960. He and Williamson are passionate favorites.
Toth is great. No question. A cartoonist's cartoonist in that there is so much skill distilled into such spare, well-chosen line-work and great spotting of blacks.
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... never left me wanting more - which, I guess, is my personal criteria for a great artist. ...
Artists I really enjoy, but are "Great Unknowns" to the majority of comic fans are...
William Ekgren IMO.
Just a few pieces of published work exist, and yet I want more (and to know more about him as an artist as well). What an outlandish, odd style... like some sorta take on "Divisionism," very unique and very memorable IMO.
(http://www.ha.com/comics/newsletters/images/112807_2.jpg)And of course there's always Basil...
(http://lambiek.net/artists/w/wolverton/wolverton_powerhousepepper.jpg)... you'd be surprised how many modern comics fans don't know him.
But both (particularly in Ekgren's case) are more "illustrators" than golden age comic book artists... although Wolverton did do a ton of work back then.
I've also recently gained an appreciation for the cover work of Maurice Whitman... some of his stuff was really nice... so was Bob Powell's cover work on The Shadow comics. But again, none of these guys would even have a shot at making my "top five" if I had to choose (except maybe Wolverton).
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I have to agree that I only see Kirby shine when inked by Simon. None of his other stuff grabs me so there must be something to the contribution of Simon. If every penciler inked there own work this would be a somewhat easier topic. I am never sure where one stops and the other starts and the quality can vary so much depending on the inker. The inker often deserves more credit or blame than they get.
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I have to agree that I only see Kirby shine when inked by Simon....The inker often deserves more credit or blame than they get.
While my introduction to comics came during Silver Age publication, I fell in love with Joe Sinnott's interpretation of Kirby. Strong, weighty, and seemingly didn't lose Kirby's finesse as did guys like Chic Stone or Colletta.
It was only later when I discovered Sinnott's Golden Age pencils that I discovered why he was so potent. Maybe not a prolific or consistent penciller (I am not qualified to say), but the work I saw, I loved.
I wish I could catch the 'I love Alex Toth' bug; I don't get an immediate appreciation of what he's doing. Maybe it's like those 3-D books that you have to stare at a long time ???
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What's the time-space we're defining for "Golden Age" here? If it extends through the early Fifties, there's a lot of EC artists we could pile in. Anyway, here's some guys from the time period I really dug:
Jack Kirby
C. C. Beck
Mac Raboy
Will Eisner
Jerry Robinson
Mort Meskin
The Starman artist (curse it, I cannot remember his name!)
Dan Barry
Basil Wolverton
And that's just for superheroes.
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Could be Jack Burnley who's name escapes you DM.
-Nigel
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Or Emil Gershwin...
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While my introduction to comics came during Silver Age publication, I fell in love with Joe Sinnott's interpretation of Kirby. Strong, weighty, and seemingly didn't lose Kirby's finesse as did guys like Chic Stone or Colletta.
Yes, Sinnott was my favorite Kirby inker of the Marvel era, too. Chic Stone had his moments (and he did some decent work on his own for...who was it?---ACG, I think). But I think Colletta actually subtracted from Kirby, though I've not looked at a Kirby-Colletta story for decades, so I'm just operating from memory.
It was only later when I discovered Sinnott's Golden Age pencils that I discovered why he was so potent. Maybe not a prolific or consistent penciller (I am not qualified to say), but the work I saw, I loved.
Some nice work of his in Atlas westerns stick out in my mind. Scans are floating around out there, though they are probably not out of copyright.
I wish I could catch the 'I love Alex Toth' bug; I don't get an immediate appreciation of what he's doing. Maybe it's like those 3-D books that you have to stare at a long time ???
I think of Toth's most stylized lean work as like very high contrast photos. His sense of composition is excellent and you have to learn to like his very self-assured minimalist line. He is at the other end of the spectrum from the artists who lovingly add a lot of feathering and detail (like, say, Roy Krenkel). I'm talking about the Toth of the late '60s and onward, not his earlier work which was capable and enjoyable but much more derivative of his influences. Seek out some of the B&W Warren mag work to really get his full impact.
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Are you sure you didn't mean "Mort Meskin, the Starman artist?" I've got one issue of Adventure where he drew the character.
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... never left me wanting more - which, I guess, is my personal criteria for a great artist. ...
Artists I really enjoy, but are "Great Unknowns" to the majority of comic fans are...
William Ekgren IMO.
Just a few pieces of published work exist, and yet I want more (and to know more about him as an artist as well). What an outlandish, odd style... like some sorta take on "Divisionism," very unique and very memorable IMO.
Sounds like Ken Quattro has been reading your mind, DL.
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/05/letter-from-william-ekgren.html (http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/05/letter-from-william-ekgren.html)
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Sounds like Ken Quattro has been reading your mind, DL.
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/05/letter-from-william-ekgren.html (http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/05/letter-from-william-ekgren.html)
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Thanks for the link JVJ, that guy Ken really did a great bit of detective work tracking down Ekgren. I guess I was on the money with regard to some of Ekgren's artistic influences... and now that I think about it, there does seem to be a hint of African and Aboriginal folk art in his work (although I'm not an expert with regard to those forms). When I saw them for the first time they sorta reminded me of those Creepy and Eerie covers by Terrance Lindall... some of the most creepy Creepy covers I'd had ever seen. I remember thinking of them (Lindall's covers) as looking like a needlepoint by grandma... if grandma was a demon that is... and that this artist (whoever he was) must be some oddball genius. Of course that was long before I'd had learned of Pointillism and that Lindall was in fact a serious "fine" artist (not that other comic book artists aren't in their own way).
Again, what a unique mixture of stylings... I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I suppose it's just another reflection of the somewhat tumultuous early life of the man. Although the paintings in question weren't done with the intent of gracing the covers of some of St. John's horror comics, they were superbly suited for that purpose. Although I do find myself with mixed feelings on the matter (as to their use) now that I've learned of his problems in later life... and perhaps partly because the comics for which they were used weren't all that good. They deserved better IMO.
I really don't know why it seems I'm always attracted to the "oddballs" (and I use that term here affectionately)... but I am. Perhaps we're all oddballs to one extent or another, or perhaps I missed my calling and should have been a psychologist.
Oh, and no I don't think Quattro has been reading my mind. ;)
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Oh, and no I don't think Quattro has been reading my mind. ;)
Well Dl, your original post said:
Just a few pieces of published work exist, and yet I want more (and to know more about him as an artist as well).
If Ken wasn't reading your mind, he was at least reading your mail.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Actually, it was Burnley.
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Jack Burnley was real good. Had a real flair for an illustrative style.
Top 5, hmmmm.
I do like Meskin a whole lot!
Mac Raboy--wonderful stuff.
I loved the Lou Fine Ray and Black Condor stories....whew!
Big fan of Dick Sprang, too.
I've discovered Lee Alias recently [mostly with Green Arrow, but his Black Cat is pretty sweet].
Funny, nobody's mentioned E.E. Hibbard [thassa joke, son...smile when I say that]
Someone brought up Harry Lucey--I knew the man's work, but never knew his name until last week when I found Archie artists on Wiki--almost by accident....by looking for his artistic record, I was able to finally come across the name.
My brother and I both love his Archie work, but always called him "the guy who draws Archie with the circles comin' outta his head."
Someone mentioned not likin' Alex Toth that much--thing is, he's an artist's artist. To see what he's doing artistically, it helps if you're also an artist. I've been a comics freelancer for 25 yrs [but not an artist]--and his stuff is gorgeous. Just not to the casual observer.
Many of the 70's artists listed him as an idol--much like the 30's guys always seemed to list Alex Raymond. But of course Raymond's talent was right there in every panel. Toth is more subtle.
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I've discovered Lee Alias recently [mostly with Green Arrow, but his Black Cat is pretty sweet].
I'm pretty sure Lee Alias only drew the panels with Oliver Queen. Some other guy did Green Arrow. ;D
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I'm pretty sure Lee Elias did all of the art on Green Arrow when he was doing it. (George Papp did it before him, in the 40s & 50s)
Lee Elias' horror comics @ Harvey might be a surprise to people only familiar with his clean superhero stuff--did a lot of covers, some pretty grim.
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I'm pretty sure Lee Alias only drew the panels with Oliver Queen. Some other guy did Green Arrow. //
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I'd be extremely surprised if that's true--not only didn't I see an art change in the stories [I work in comics and can tell when the art switches]--though I didn't actually look it up just now--but that's more a policy of later years...like Kirby's Superman faces replaced by Curt Swan, fer instance.
I'm not sure where that idea of different artists on the same story comes from, but if I'm wrong and you're right----I'd LOVE to know more about it.
But Lee Elias was a capable artist, even better----and Green Arrow was a secondary character at best [at the time]---so it seems very unlikely that DC was allowing GA special treatment by having more than one artist on a story [the logistics of doing so means extra $$ on DC's part]. GA just doesn't seem to warrant that kind of treatment/respect that Bats, Supes and WW did as the iconic moneymakers of the company.
moondood
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I think Jon is refering to the misspelling of Lee Elias :D
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I think Jon is [referring] to the misspelling of Lee Elias.
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Well, don't I feel like a fool. As a comics letterer, I pride myself on my spelling [even outside my profession, it's a source of pride]--and I totally missed that I screwed it up. And I didn't even take the smiley sign as a giveaway to look closer.
That does clear up the debate, though.
I have a graphic novel due at the printer tomorrow--and now I'll be up all night worrying about the spelling.
Moondood