Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: JVJ (RIP) on April 05, 2010, 06:23:59 PM
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(Edit: I'm just following scra1941's lead by giving the thread a controversial name. The "myth" of Holyoke is that it was a publishing company from 1940 to 1950. See below for (lots) more details.)
I realize that this IS beating a dead horse, guys, but can I possibly make the request ONE more time to abandon the "Holyoke" designation for this group of comics. I know this flies in the face of Overstreet and Bails and fandom as a whole, but it is simply WRONG.
Holyoke was a printing company that published Capt. Aero and Catman for ONE YEAR (2/42-1/43). They published Blue Beetle for maybe 20 months (6/42-2/44. They created Sparkling Stars (6/44) AFTER they lost Blue Beetle back to Fox and published 33 issues (until 3/48)and they released a whole slew of single issue reprints that have been collectively designated Holyoke One-Shots. No dates on these, but assumed to have been 1944, also post-Blue Beetle. That's it. Period, the end - a short stint of publishing other company's books and then a couple of titles on their own.
Et-Es-Go, Helnit, Continental, Bilbara, Tem, and Nita should all be gathered into a "Temerson Publishing" group. Aviation Press and Narrative have only a tenuous connection with Temerson, through L.B. Cole perhaps, but no connection with Holyoke whatsoever.
The Holyoke issues of Capt. Aero and Catman should be lumped into the Temerson category, or, otherwise, just put issues PUBLISHED by Holyoke into the Holyoke section. That's what is done with the Blue Beetle issues. It makes infinitely more historical sense.
I hereby relinquish the soap box and cease flailing at the departed horse-like creature.
my (futile, I'm sure) 2¢
(|:{>
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Thanks Jim your information has been added to that section on the GAC homepage
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I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues). Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.
On a related subject, I was also wondering if the Rural Home titles were ever going to be gathered into their own category, away from Croydon? It doesn't make sense to me to keep two completely unrelated companies grouped together.
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I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues). Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.
On a related subject, I was also wondering if the Rural Home titles were ever going to be gathered into their own category, away from Croydon? It doesn't make sense to me to keep two completely unrelated companies grouped together.
I agree with you, bchat. I also do not see the connection between Bilbara, Worth and Temerson - though a coincidental connection may exist since Cyclone (Bilbara) and Whirlwind (Nita) debuted the SAME month and featured some of the same artists and similar characters. Not much to build a case on, but still "interesting".
Worth's Champion Comics shares the distinction of being acquired by the Harveys with Speed (Brookwood) and Green Hornet (Helnit), so again there's this tangential parallelism that one finds interesting, but certainly NOT conclusive.
Others consider it too much of coincidence, but I remain skeptical.
There is no connection between them and Holyoke. Holyoke as a publishing company doesn't exist until Feb. 1942 when it takes over the publication of Capt. Aero and Catman. In 1940 and 1941, the years of Nita, Tem and Brookwood (i.e. the years at 381 4th Ave), Holyoke is at most a printing company.
As for 220 W. 42nd St., I think that address first appears in Great Comics #1 (11/41) and the following month in Choice Comics #1. Then Catman #6, still listed as Helnit Pub. Co. moves to that address in 1/42. And, as you know, that is the editorial address for Holyoke (until 1/43), Et-Es-Go and Continental until the end (Suspense Comics #12, 9/46). I can't navigate the stairs to check on the editorial addresses used by Sparkling Stars, but that comic doesn't come into existence until mid-1944 and probably doesn't (correct me if I err) come out of 220 W. 42nd.
And BOY, do I EVER agree with you regarding Croydon being used as an umbrella name for Rural Home, et al.
(|:{>
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Worth's Champion Comics shares the distinction of being acquired by the Harveys with Speed (Brookwood) and Green Hornet (Helnit), so again there's this tangential parallelism that one finds interesting, but certainly NOT conclusive.
Others consider it too much of coincidence, but I remain skeptical.
I simply assume (with no facts to base this on, just "thinking out-loud") that Harvey wanted to get out of the gate quickly, and so acquired existing titles from small companies (Speed, Champion) as an easy way to enter comics, and then expanded from there.
There is no connection between them and Holyoke. Holyoke as a publishing company doesn't exist until Feb. 1942 when it takes over the publication of Capt. Aero and Catman. In 1940 and 1941, the years of Nita, Tem and Brookwood (i.e. the years at 381 4th Ave), Holyoke is at most a printing company.
As for 220 W. 42nd St., I think that address first appears in Great Comics #1 (11/41) and the following month in Choice Comics #1. Then Catman #6, still listed as Helnit Pub. Co. moves to that address in 1/42. And, as you know, that is the editorial address for Holyoke (until 1/43), Et-Es-Go and Continental until the end (Suspense Comics #12, 9/46). I can't navigate the stairs to check on the editorial addresses used by Sparkling Stars, but that comic doesn't come into existence until mid-1944 and probably doesn't (correct me if I err) come out of 220 W. 42nd.
Sparkling Stars 10 has Holyoke Publishing Co Inc's address as 1475 Broadway Times Bldg., New York, NY, so you can avoid the stairs for now.
And BOY, do I EVER agree with you regarding Croydon being used as an umbrella name for Rural Home, et al.
Well, I remember the discussion about this on the other board and thought it was worth revisiting here. Reading everone else's opinions on the matter convinced me that Croydon & Rural Home should be treated as the seperate companies that they are.
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I agree with your Harvey suggestion, bchat. As I've argued with those who try to extend some pre-Harvey connection to those titles, you can't make it retroactive just because the same group took over the titles.
It does seem much more likely that there is a connection between Brookwood and Helnit, and here's a very interesting set of facts:
1. Brookwood, Tem and Nita lasted for ONE YEAR (Speed #1) 10/39 to (Crash #4) 9/40.
2. Helnit (& Great and Choice, if you care to include them - and I do) lasted for ONE YEAR (Green Hornet #1) 12/40 to (Catman #6) 1/42.
3. Holyoke took over the two Helnit titles for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 2/42 to (Capt Aero #10) 1/43.
4. There's a six month gap between the end of Holyoke's run and the beginning of Et-Es-Go (Capt. Aero #10) 1/43 to (Catman #7) 7/43.
5. Et-Es-Go lasted for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 7/43 to (Capt. Aero #15 and Suspense #4) 6/44 - before turning into Continental.
6. Continental lasted TWO YEARS (Catman #25) 7/44 to (Suspense #12) 6/46.
I have no idea what all that means, but I find it curious, don't you?
(|:{>
ps. Thanks for the Sparkling Stars info.
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Slightly off topic I know but I have often wondered what the connection between St.John and Dynamic/Harry A Chesler was as some early ST.John books reprinted material from that publisher/shop.
-Nigel
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I agree with your Harvey suggestion, bchat. As I've argued with those who try to extend some pre-Harvey connection to those titles, you can't make it retroactive just because the same group took over the titles.
Personally, and you may not agree with me here, I'ld like to see the first 11 issues of "Speed Comics" (and maybe the first six of "Green Hornet") moved from Harvey and grouped together with Crash Comics & Whirlwind Comics.
It does seem much more likely that there is a connection between Brookwood and Helnit, and here's a very interesting set of facts:
1. Brookwood, Tem and Nita lasted for ONE YEAR (Speed #1) 10/39 to (Crash #4) 9/40.
2. Helnit (& Great and Choice, if you care to include them - and I do) lasted for ONE YEAR (Green Hornet #1) 12/40 to (Catman #6) 1/42.
Speaking of Great & Choice Comics, I'ld like to see these moved from "Unsorted" to the Helnit/Tem group.
3. Holyoke took over the two Helnit titles for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 2/42 to (Capt Aero #10) 1/43.
4. There's a six month gap between the end of Holyoke's run and the beginning of Et-Es-Go (Capt. Aero #10) 1/43 to (Catman #7) 7/43.
5. Et-Es-Go lasted for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 7/43 to (Capt. Aero #15 and Suspense #4) 6/44 - before turning into Continental.
6. Continental lasted TWO YEARS (Catman #25) 7/44 to (Suspense #12) 6/46.
I have no idea what all that means, but I find it curious, don't you?
I find it confusing. I'll admit that I haven't been looking at this as closely as you have for as long as you have, but looking at the following info pretty much settles the debate for me:
Cover-date "November 1943":
Cat-Man Comics 21 - Et-Es-Go Magazines Inc - editorial office: 220 West 42nd Street, New York, NY - office of publication: 420 De Soto Avenue, St Louis MO
Blue Beetle 27 - Holyoke Publishing Co Inc - editorial office: 52 Vanderbilt Avenue, NYC, NY - office of publication: 1 Appleton Street, Holyoke, Mass
It seems pretty clear that I'm looking at two different publishers operating out of two different locations. You've definitely made a strong case for a group publishing name change, and your suggestion of "Tem Publishing" is probably as good as any. I think that as long as the "True Holyoke" books stay grouped with the others, there's always going to be people debating what to call everything.
ps. Thanks for the Sparkling Stars info.
You're welcome.
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I was in no way lobbying for a "group publishing name change". My initial post on this thread states my position pretty well. Holyoke was a printer who took over some comics from the "Temerson Group" and then another title from Victor Fox. After one year, whatever debt was owed by Temerson is satisfied and, after a six month gap, Temerson revives his books, adds a couple more and goes on for two years.
Fox takes longer to get out from under Holyoke, but when he does, Holyoke decides that maybe there is something to these comic books after all and starts their own title, Sparkling Stars and uses some paper to reprint the "one-shots".
No, I see Holyoke as a printer from 1940-41 turned publisher from 1942 to 1948. And your Blue Beetle 27 indicia data clearly shows that the editorial content of Blue Beetle was created in a separate office, 52 Vanderbilt, which was the same address used for the final four or five Holyoke Catman and last three Holyoke Capt. Aero comics.
Again, I don't have the Sparkling Stars and Blue Beetle info to hand and it's frustrating.
Interesting, the first thing Temerson did when he got his titles back was to move the printing to St. Louis, MO. from Holyoke, MA.
(|:{>
ps. I agree. Make a group called Tem/Nita and another called Et-Es-Go/Continental and put the books where they belong.
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I was in no way lobbying for a "group publishing name change".
I agree that referring to all the books as "Holyoke" isn't accurate, as you've proved. Leaving the folder with the name "Holyoke" doesn't seem like the best thing to do if this site wants to eliminate this sort of confusion for future historians looking into the history of these companies.
... Holyoke decides that maybe there is something to these comic books after all and starts their own title, Sparkling Stars and uses some paper to reprint the "one-shots".
The "Holyoke One-shots" that this site has do not contain any indicia, so my question is: How could someone like me confirm that Holyoke is the actual publisher? If none of the one-shots had an indicia, is this just a case of Overstreet assigning a publisher to books based on the contents?
And on a side note, I'm not looking to create a bunch of work for anyone by suggesting books get shuffled around (like Choice & Great Comics or the early Speed Comics), but it doesn't make sense to me to have these related books scattered througout the site. As it stands right now, it makes it inconvenient for someone investigating a situation like this to have to jump from one publisher folder to another, trying to figure-out which issue numbers were produced by different companies.
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One other thing about Sparkling Stars that I always find interesting: I'm pretty sure it's the last book to stay at 68 pages for a dime. Heck, even starting at that size was unusual in 1944, and by 1948 at least some publishers were down to 36 pages. Just another oddity to note.
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Wish I had an answer for your "Holyoke One Shot" question, bchat. Mine are (dum du dum dum...) upstairs...
As for putting the books where they (historically) belong, we do it for Blue Beetle, don't we? You find the Holyoke issues under Holyoke and the Fox issues under Fox and the Charlton issues under Charlton. There may, indeed, be some confusion due to this, but (I was going to say that you'd find them all if you searched on "Blue Beetle", but every time I tried I got the following:
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A database error has occurred on Digital Comic Museum.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here, if this does not fix the error, you can contact the administrator by clicking here. Please let them know the contents of all three boxes below.
Alternatively, if you are the administrator and you believe this to be a software bug, please post the information in the support section of our forum here. Please quote the contents of all three boxes below.
Error Returned
mySQL query error: SELECT * FROM dl_categories WHERE cid= mySQL error: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '' at line 1 Date: Tuesday 06th 2010f April 2010 02:42:11 PM
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so I have no idea if it will work. Oddly enough, I get a similar error when searching for Blue Beetle on GACUK. Bizarre!!!)
Getting back to the question of where to file the books, I believe that in the end it's better to be accurate and let folks adapt and learn the real history than it is to cater to the "myths" of comic legends. YMMV.
my 2¢
(|:{>
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A database error has occurred on Digital Comic Museum.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here, if this does not fix the error, you can contact the administrator by clicking here. Please let them know the contents of all three boxes below.
Alternatively, if you are the administrator and you believe this to be a software bug, please post the information in the support section of our forum here. Please quote the contents of all three boxes below.
Error Returned
mySQL query error: SELECT * FROM dl_categories WHERE cid= mySQL error: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '' at line 1 Date: Tuesday 06th 2010f April 2010 02:42:11 PM
will look into the error...
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Ok error is caused by 5 comics in the system that are not linked to any category. Finding these 5 comics out of 8600 odd entries might take me little time.
BTW Blue search term works fine, its beetle that is the problem :-\
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Ok error is caused by 5 comics in the system that are not linked to any category. Finding these 5 comics out of 8600 odd entries might take me little time.
BTW Blue search term works fine, its beetle that is the problem :-\
Is that like looking for a beetle in a haystack, Captain?
(|:{>
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Should be working now.
Turns out problem was 2 Blue Beetle files and 1 other file that were in database, in the link to cat table but the cat they were listed under wasn't in the category table. Deleted these comics since they didn't work anyway and all seems to be working now. This bug been on GAC since 2006 it seems and you were first to have reported it :)
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I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues). Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.
Hmm... I should pay attention to these boards more often :-) I wrote up a huge discussion of all of these companies on the gcd-main list near the beginning of the year. I was going to repost it here, but a lot of it covers details of exactly how the GCD entries are organized wrongly, and 90% of the rest of it is the same as what JVJ said to start off this threat (wonderfully provocative title!) so I'll just skip to replying to a few points and addressing one or two missed items.
The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually. Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this). After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there. Previously, as Bob Hughes just noted on a wonderfully researched post on the GCD's main list, Temerson was getting his material from Bert Whitman productions. This was true for the early companies (Brookwood, Tem and Nita) and for Green Hornet under Helnit. Bob has also identified the connection with Temerson's much earlier comics venture, Ultem (with I.W. Ullman).
Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely. Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces. Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop. At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.
An interesting point of difference between how the "Holyoke" issues of Cat-Man and Captain Aero were handled vs how Blue Beetle was handled- the Temerson titles were produced by the same staff. Basically, just the printing/ownership changed. But the Blue Beetle title didn't come with the entire former Fox staff, so it changed under Holyoke, with many of the Temerson artists contributing (and some then continuing into Sparkling Stars).
thanks,
-henry
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Interesting stuff, very slowly the mystery of these companies is starting to unfold.
-Nigel
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The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually. Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this). After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there.
So, if I'm understanding this statement correctly, the connection of Bilbara to "Holyoke" is made by a single creator (Quinlan) working for both companies? That's not really much of a connection, considering how many other creators worked for multiple publishers.
Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely. Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces. Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop. At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.
Cyclone Comics 1 (Bilbara) & Champion Comics 9 (Worth) both have the same editorial address, yet have different publication addresses (420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO & 8 Lord Street, Buffalo NY respectively). Family Comics Inc published Speed Comics 43 (May-June 1946) using a publication address of 1117 Wolfendale Ave, Pittsburgh PA, while FCI's All-New Comics 13 (July-August 1946) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. Centuar Publications' Wham Comics 1 (Nov 1940) has a publication address of 221 East 20th St., Chicago IL, while their Super Spy 1 (Oct 1940) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. So, citing different printing addresses isn't enough to convince me that two titles sharing the same editorial address during the same period of time were published by different companies. All that the different printing addresses tell me is that different printers were used to print different books.
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I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues). Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.
Hmm... I should pay attention to these boards more often :-) I wrote up a huge discussion of all of these companies on the gcd-main list near the beginning of the year. I was going to repost it here, but a lot of it covers details of exactly how the GCD entries are organized wrongly, and 90% of the rest of it is the same as what JVJ said to start off this threat (wonderfully provocative title!) so I'll just skip to replying to a few points and addressing one or two missed items.
The link between the Worth and Temerson companies is pretty simple, actually. Charles Quinlan was Worth Carnahan's business partner in Bilbara, Worth and Hit (there's an interview with Carnahan's daughter in an issue of Comic Book Marketplace somewhere that covers this). After the titles published by those three companies ended, Quinlan moved over to Helnit, and eventually took over as art director there. Previously, as Bob Hughes just noted on a wonderfully researched post on the GCD's main list, Temerson was getting his material from Bert Whitman productions. This was true for the early companies (Brookwood, Tem and Nita) and for Green Hornet under Helnit. Bob has also identified the connection with Temerson's much earlier comics venture, Ultem (with I.W. Ullman).
Great Comics Publications is a different animal entirely. Remember that a lot of these buildings in New York hold multiple office spaces. Great was active while Holyoke took over Helnit, did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address, and most tellingly, had contents provided by the Iger shop. At this point Helnit/Holyoke was all being produced by Quinlan.
An interesting point of difference between how the "Holyoke" issues of Cat-Man and Captain Aero were handled vs how Blue Beetle was handled- the Temerson titles were produced by the same staff. Basically, just the printing/ownership changed. But the Blue Beetle title didn't come with the entire former Fox staff, so it changed under Holyoke, with many of the Temerson artists contributing (and some then continuing into Sparkling Stars).
thanks,
-henry
Thanks, Henry,
glad you're able to add some clarity to the Quinlan connection. It's certainly true that Bilbara (Cyclone) and Worth (Champion) both ended before Helnit (Green Hornet, Catman, Capt. Aero and Capt. Fearless) begin. It's a fact I'd noticed but not internalized with regard Quinlan's role.
There is still the weird "coincidence" of Whirlwind (main character "Cyclone") debuting from Nita the same month that Cyclone debuts from Bilbara. I believe it is pure coincidence, but others find it indicative of some hidden connection. I remain skeptical.
Does anyone have an exact date on Green Hornet #1? My research shows 12/40, but that seems a couple of months early based on all the other Helnit titles. And, actually, my notes on all of the GH issues are second hand. Does anyone have dates and publishing addresses directly from the comics?
I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?
Okay, I wanted to shoehorn Great and Choice in, and it's probably asking too much. They were distributed by ANC, too, as well as built from Iger Shop work, so the shoe probably really doesn't fit. I understand the nature of the addresses in New York. The current ground floor of 220 W 42nd St. appears to be a very large MacDonalds, with lots of office space above. Who knows what it looked like 70 years ago? BTW, you're correct when you say that Great "did not list a Holyoke, Mass printing address," but it should be said that it did not list ANY printing address.
Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.
Thanks again for your interesting commentary and someday I'll have to locate that CBM and reread the interview with Carnahan's daughter.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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So, if I'm understanding this statement correctly, the connection of Bilbara to "Holyoke" is made by a single creator (Quinlan) working for both companies? That's not really much of a connection, considering how many other creators worked for multiple publishers.
Cyclone Comics 1 (Bilbara) & Champion Comics 9 (Worth) both have the same editorial address, yet have different publication addresses (420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO & 8 Lord Street, Buffalo NY respectively). Family Comics Inc published Speed Comics 43 (May-June 1946) using a publication address of 1117 Wolfendale Ave, Pittsburgh PA, while FCI's All-New Comics 13 (July-August 1946) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. Centuar Publications' Wham Comics 1 (Nov 1940) has a publication address of 221 East 20th St., Chicago IL, while their Super Spy 1 (Oct 1940) has a publication address of 420 De Soto Ave, St Louis MO. So, citing different printing addresses isn't enough to convince me that two titles sharing the same editorial address during the same period of time were published by different companies. All that the different printing addresses tell me is that different printers were used to print different books.
True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
(|:{>
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True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.
And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me. The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan. Thanks for clearing that up.
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True, bchat,
different "publication addresses" (i.e. the address of the PRINTER) isn't enough to differentiate a publisher, but the source of Great and Choice's artwork, the Iger Shop, and the ANC distributor and no other connection beyond the same editorial address does, and Henry suggests, make me STRONGLY lean away from lumping those two title into the Temerson group.
After looking at the scans of the indicias in Choice & Great Comics, the editorial address is the only thing that I can find that Great Comic Publications shares with Holyoke.
Yes, I should have emphasized that because of the nature of Holyoke Publishing Co., Inc. coming from the Holyoke printing business, I consider the lack of a Holyoke printing address to have more significance than I would usually attach to the printing address. As far as I know, all actual Holyoke books were printed at Holyoke, and say so.
Also, JVJ mentioned the distribution, which I had forgotten about but was also a supporting point when Frank Motler, the fellow from bipcomics.com (whose name is escaping me at the moment) and I kicked this around a while back. This is why Great is now listed separately in the bipcomics.com indicia listings, btw.
And the connection between Bilbara and Temerson/Helnit really doesn't exist - at least that's what Henry claims. It's been forced there by fans over the years and needs to be readdressed. You're right, it's not much of a connection, but it does explain SOME of the basis for the erroneous links made in the past.
Bilbara and Worth have a connection. They are NOT connected to Temerson or Holyoke. That's what Henry's saying and I have always thought that myself.
Sometimes it takes a simple rewording of ideas for things to sink-in with me. The way I was reading Henry's statements, it seemed to me as if he was in favor of keeping Bilbara linked to "Holyoke" based on the employment of Quinlan. Thanks for clearing that up.
Yup, this is what I get for dashing off a quick message on a complex topic while running late for work :-) I do have some more Helnit/Holyoke issues I'd like to scan (picked up Captain Fearless #2 and Captain Aero #v1#8 (2) at WonderCon) but there's so much GCD coding to get done...
Thanks to all for their comments on this- the Temerson/Holyoke mess is one of my favorite topics in golden age publishing.
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Thanks, Henry,
glad you're able to add some clarity to the Quinlan connection. It's certainly true that Bilbara (Cyclone) and Worth (Champion) both ended before Helnit (Green Hornet, Catman, Capt. Aero and Capt. Fearless) begin. It's a fact I'd noticed but not internalized with regard Quinlan's role.
I have a really big spreadsheet where the columns are months (cover dates) from 1935-1955 and the rows are series grouped by publisher with various bits of coloring. It's wonderful for making certain things jump out from the data. The whole Worth / Temerson / Holyoke thing (with Narrative and Aviation Press often wrongly associated) is a lot easier to work out when you see it like that.
There is still the weird "coincidence" of Whirlwind (main character "Cyclone") debuting from Nita the same month that Cyclone debuts from Bilbara. I believe it is pure coincidence, but others find it indicative of some hidden connection. I remain skeptical.
I'm with you on this coincidence. Likewise the use of Volton- it's just a name that Quinlan recycled, the characters are quite different.
Does anyone have an exact date on Green Hornet #1? My research shows 12/40, but that seems a couple of months early based on all the other Helnit titles. And, actually, my notes on all of the GH issues are second hand. Does anyone have dates and publishing addresses directly from the comics?
I've never found clear info on this book either.
I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?
This was Bob Hughes' analysis. I'll follow up on the gcd-main list.
Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.
I'll have to look into the data I have. I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address. Worth a look- thanks!
On a related note, anyone know anything about Continental Publications, that publised four issues of Foodini (licensed tie-in) much later on (50's? not near my notes right now). Same address as Continental Magazines, but the huge gap and different content raise questions. Like the link between Ultem and Brookwood, it may require looking at Temerson's non-comics work to see if there is continuity.
thanks,
-henry
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Doesn't the art change somewhat when the editorial address on Catman and Capt. Aero moves to 52 Vanderbilt? I'm stuck with no access to my notes and comics, so I'm working from memory here. Quinlan fades out, if memory serves, and Willner becomes more prominent. Willner (and Ulmer) are prominent at both Holyoke AND Continental - in fact, I think Willner is listed as the final editor in the last Catman Ownership Statement. He does a lot of work for Sparkling Stars.
I'll have to look into the data I have. I don't think I ever pinned down the Quinlan => Cole transition (it's complete by the time Et-Es-Go becomes Continental), and I never thought of correlating it with the editorial address. Worth a look- thanks!
Just realized I said Quinlan => Cole while you were talking about Willner and Ulmer. I did notice those two appearing in Holyoke (while I found only one or two Quinlan credits in the Blue Beetle run, at most). Blue Beetle seems to be the means by which Holyoke acquired it's own relationships with artists to continue on into Sparkling Stars. Since Blue Beetle, unlike Cat-Man and Captain Aero, didn't come with its own staff, as far as I can tell it became largely produced by the Temerson staff (or freelancers), some of whom kept on as Holyoke became a "real" publisher.
I hadn't noticed Willner as editor. I really want to go over the Cat-Man run and fix it up in the GCD. Also, I have an issue or two that isn't scanned or is only partially scanned (and indexed) that I need to get into both the GCD and the DCM.
Thanks for the reply, Jim!
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Where is Mark Carlson?
I would like to acknowledge the import of Mark Carlson on this. My interest in Holyoke, Continental, Helnit, Rural Home, Aviation Press, Narrative, etc. was all stimulated by a series of correspondence I had with Mark 25-30 years ago and material we worked on for APA-I. I have a section on my "Have List" (and two boxes in my attic) labeled "Carlson's Comics" - just because that's how I think of many of them.
Does ANYONE know where Mark is or what became of him? I would love to find out what he's learned in the last few decades. And even if I don't connect up with him, he deserves a mention in Comics Fandom History for his pioneering work in this area.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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And while who ever is in there fixing "Holyoke" to be one of the actual Temerson companies... can we fix the name in the small press section that currently says "Continental"? Key and Lucky comics are from Consolidated Magazines (Rubinstein), not Continental Magazines (Temerson).
Just my 2-cent carry-over from GAC. ;-)
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And while who ever is in there fixing "Holyoke" to be one of the actual Temerson companies... can we fix the name in the small press section that currently says "Continental"? Key and Lucky comics are from Consolidated Magazines (Rubinstein), not Continental Magazines (Temerson).
Just my 2-cent carry-over from GAC. ;-)
Yes, archiver,
there's a lot of misinformation being reinforced on both GAC and DCM. Let's fix as much as we can.
Thanks. Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I know that Whitman Studio supplied the art for GH, but I've never felt them as a major presence in the other early Temerson titles, but I confess to not having seen them all, too. Any chance you have some scans to share?
I have Crash #3 but not scanned, however most of Crash is scanned at least from fiche on this site, as is at least one issue of Whirlwind. From Helnit I need to scan the Captain Fearless #2 I picked up last weekend at WonderCon :-) The guy I bought it from actually had two copies!
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My ongoing analysis of the Temerson/Holyoke history is at
http://dccomicsartists.com/temerson/temerson.htm (http://dccomicsartists.com/temerson/temerson.htm)
Bert Whitman does the five issues of Crash, Whirlwind and the Helnit Green Hornet before leaving to do the Mr. Ex comic strip.
Speed is produced by a different group of people headed by Maurice Rosenfield, Ulmer's nephew.
So, it's really an Ulmer comic, not a Temerson comic.
Trying to figure out when Rae Herman left Temerson right now. Not much to work with.
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My ongoing analysis of the Temerson/Holyoke history is at
http://dccomicsartists.com/temerson/temerson.htm (http://dccomicsartists.com/temerson/temerson.htm)
Bert Whitman does the five issues of Crash, Whirlwind and the Helnit Green Hornet before leaving to do the Mr. Ex comic strip.
Speed is produced by a different group of people headed by Maurice Rosenfield, Ulmer's nephew.
So, it's really an Ulmer comic, not a Temerson comic.
I apologize accidentally for misrepresenting this earlier in the thread! Although I thing you mean Ullman, not Ulmer :-) This groups Brookwood as one fork descending from Ultem (I.W. Ullman + Frank Z. Temerson) with Tem and Nita, then Helnit, the other fork. It also explains why "Brookwood" doesn't have a name made up from any of Temerson's favorite syllables (anyone know the derivation of "hel" and "nit"?), which Temerson obviously favored up until Continental.
Trying to figure out when Rae Herman left Temerson right now. Not much to work with.
Between Oct. 1943 and Oct. 1945 is all I know from statements of ownership scans. Anyone spotted a 1944 statement? The other thing to look at would, I guess, be when she took over Wanted / Orbit / Our, although maybe there was overlap. Definitely not an area in which I've had time to do any serious investigation.
Random bit of trivia- The Hood (who appeared in Cat-Man) had a girlfriend named "Rachel Herman".
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And while who ever is in there fixing "Holyoke" to be one of the actual Temerson companies... can we fix the name in the small press section that currently says "Continental"? Key and Lucky comics are from Consolidated Magazines (Rubinstein), not Continental Magazines (Temerson).
Just my 2-cent carry-over from GAC. ;-)
Sorry about the mix up in the small publisher section, I never set up a Continental section so had not noticed it.
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A couple of questions, Bob.
Personal Adventure Stories
ed. J. A. Rosefeld (Resolute Publications Inc., 25¢, 68pp, large pulp, cover by A. E. Drake) -3 issues?
J.A. Rosenfield is I. W. Ullman's brother-in-law
Is "ed. J. A. Rosefeld" a (sic) or a typo for "J. A. Rosenfeld"?
"Lex Publications," 381 Fourth Avenue, which superseded "Ultem" and "Resolute Publications", is in its turn out.
What does "is in its turn out." mean?
Holyoke (Sherman Bowles) takes over Catman with #12(7) and Captain Aero with #8. Quinlan and Temerson go with them.
What does "Temerson go(es) with them." mean?
Champ takes over publishing of Champ Comics with #12.
225 West 57th ST Leo Greenwald ed and publisher
Adolphe Barreux's Majestic Studios supplies the contents.
Every issue of Champ I own (from #3 onward) seems to be produced by Barreaux (not Barreux), so I don't understand this entry for #12.
The path Rae Hermann takes from Temerson seems to be through Chicago - Rural Home (Patches, Taffy) and Swappers Quarterly (Toytown). Then with issues #2, to individual owners Taffy (1945 by Samuel Herman), Patches (1945 by Ray R. Hermann), Toytown (1945 by B. Antin) - ALL at 439 DeSoto in St. Louis, MO. With the THIRD issues of each, the mists clear away and it becomes clearly a unified, new company. The inside front covers list FOUR titles: Taffy, Patches, Toytown and U.S. No. 1 (never published). Art and Editorial is all at 1819 Broadway, NYC and Toytown #3 and Patches #3 both sport a logo proclaiming "An ORBIT Publication". The dates are all probably (I don't own Toytown #3) July 1946 and the Editor and Owner eventually turn out to be Ray R. Hermann.
Keep on researching...
(|:{>
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Slightly off topic I know but I have often wondered what the connection between St.John and Dynamic/Harry A Chesler was as some early ST.John books reprinted material from that publisher/shop.
-Nigel
Flying Cadet Publications, Inc., was also related to St. John and (in addition to the Flying Cadet series) published the main Chesler ("World's Greatest Comics") titles from 1/1945 - 1/1946. The company was listed as co-owner of the series at the time, and the editor was Will Harr (for some reason, people seem to want to assume Chesler edited all of his own series, while in truth he often had a separate editor). Do you know if the material reprinted from St. John came from Dynamic Comics #13-17, Punch Comics #12-16 or Red Seal Comics #14-15? Those were the Flying Cadet issues.
thanks,
-henry
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A couple of questions, Bob.
I'm not Bob, but I can answer some of these :-) One easy one is that Rosenfield is often misspelled Rosenfeld in various places, but the former is correct. This has been discussed quite a bit on gcd-main recently.
Holyoke (Sherman Bowles) takes over Catman with #12(7) and Captain Aero with #8. Quinlan and Temerson go with them.
What does "Temerson go(es) with them." mean?
Quinlan and Temerson continue to produce Cat-Man and Captain Aero under Holyoke. This is definitely visible with Quinlan's contributions. I can't lay hands on direct evidence for Temerson, although Bob might have something
Champ takes over publishing of Champ Comics with #12.
225 West 57th ST Leo Greenwald ed and publisher
Adolphe Barreux's Majestic Studios supplies the contents.
Every issue of Champ I own (from #3 onward) seems to be produced by Barreaux (not Barreux), so I don't understand this entry for #12.
Which part specifically are you contesting? When Bob and I (and others) discussed this last time on gcd-main, I managed to get a copy of Champ #12 which, as noted by Bob is from the "Champ Publishing Company", 225 West 57th St. It features a statement of ownership dated October 1940 listing the publisher as "Worth Publishing Co., Inc.", 122 East 42nd St., but listing Leo Greenwald as Editor (and no Managing Editor). This is the transition phase- earlier indicia from Worth Publishing specifically list Worth B. Carnahan as editor (Champion #4, for instance). As for the source, Quinlan seems not to have been involved here, while he is all over Cyclone (Bilbara) and O.K. Comics (Hit).
The path Rae Hermann takes from Temerson seems to be through Chicago - Rural Home (Patches, Taffy) and Swappers Quarterly (Toytown). Then with issues #2, to individual owners Taffy (1945 by Samuel Herman), Patches (1945 by Ray R. Hermann), Toytown (1945 by B. Antin) - ALL at 439 DeSoto in St. Louis, MO. With the THIRD issues of each, the mists clear away and it becomes clearly a unified, new company. The inside front covers list FOUR titles: Taffy, Patches, Toytown and U.S. No. 1 (never published). Art and Editorial is all at 1819 Broadway, NYC and Toytown #3 and Patches #3 both sport a logo proclaiming "An ORBIT Publication". The dates are all probably (I don't own Toytown #3) July 1946 and the Editor and Owner eventually turn out to be Ray R. Hermann.
Thanks for this!
-henry
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What does "Temerson go(es) with them." mean?
Quinlan and Temerson continue to produce Cat-Man and Captain Aero under Holyoke. This is definitely visible with Quinlan's contributions. I can't lay hands on direct evidence for Temerson, although Bob might have something
(how do I do quotes in this system?)
There's a letter from Allen Ulmer (not Ullman-not a relative, but a Blue Beetle artist) talking about Temerson being at Holyoke and maybe part owner. It's around here somewhere's. Should nail down a copy so it won't float away.
Barreaux may be producing material for Champion/Champ earlier than I thought. It's hard to pin shops down.
I will investigate further.
Greenwald may be a front for the printer or the distributor, keeping the titles in production until a new sucker can be found to buy them (Harvey). Other than that, I don't "know" anything about him. All this stuff I read about a connection between Temerson and Donenfeld appears to be total hot air. The only documented connection I've found is that they sued each other. Rosefeld is what it said in my source. (Uncovered by Douglas Ellis). A lot of these people changed the spelling of their names frequently.
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There's a letter from Allen Ulmer (not Ullman-not a relative, but a Blue Beetle artist) talking about Temerson being at Holyoke and maybe part owner. It's around here somewhere's. Should nail down a copy so it won't float away.
Is this what you're referring to:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_kZwgYcSrHR8/S71hOWZ2ntI/AAAAAAAABYc/DtrfM6lRgmo/s800/letter%20from%20allen%20ullmer.jpg)
(how do I do quotes in this system?)
Use the button that looks like a comic dialogue box, or type (without spaces) "[ quote ]" & "[ /quote ]" with the quoted text in-between the "quotes".
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(how do I do quotes in this system?)
There's a quote link at the top right of each post when you're logged in. It will put that message in the edit box in quote tags.
There's a letter from Allen Ulmer (not Ullman-not a relative, but a Blue Beetle artist) talking about Temerson being at Holyoke and maybe part owner. It's around here somewhere's. Should nail down a copy so it won't float away.
Yes, that Ulmer I know, although I'd forgotten it directly connected Temerson and Holyoke. Good to know.
Barreaux may be producing material for Champion/Champ earlier than I thought. It's hard to pin shops down.
I will investigate further.
The GCD doesn't have any Quinlan credits in Champion. Our indexes might just be sparse there, but we have plenty of credits for him in the other two Carnahan titles. Champion seems to be different from Cyclone and O.K., somewhat like how Brookwood is different from Tem and Nita. Don't know if there's any deeper meaning to that- was Greenwald (or whoever he represents) involved in those two earlier? Was that why they went to him (assuming we can ever get evidence of Speed #12 and 13 being published by Greenwald in the form of "Speed Publishing Co.")?
Greenwald may be a front for the printer or the distributor, keeping the titles in production until a new sucker can be found to buy them (Harvey). Other than that, I don't "know" anything about him. All this stuff I read about a connection between Temerson and Donenfeld appears to be total hot air. The only documented connection I've found is that they sued each other. Rosefeld is what it said in my source. (Uncovered by Douglas Ellis). A lot of these people changed the spelling of their names frequently.
I seem to recall that someone on gcd-main (Steven Rowe, perhaps?) came up with a connection between Greenwald and P.D.C., the distributor. But i don't recall what that connection was.
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I didn't ask about "feld" or "field" - the site lists "Rosefeld" (no N). It that a typo or does the indicia spell in without the "N"?
Quinlan certainly continues to produce Catman, but what evidence is there for Temerson's continued involvement? I've seen the Ulmer letter,
(http://boards.collectors-society.com/attachments/90988.jpg)and my take on it is not that Ulmer is saying that Temerson is at Holyoke. Unless you know of another letter, I'm still very leery of placing Temerson the man at Holyoke the publisher.
You do quotes using left bracket, the word quote, right bracket. End the quote with the same adding the forward slash to before the word quote.
Regarding Barreaux, the entry on Bob's site for Champ #12 seems to imply that Barreaux wasn't involved earlier. I think he was probably involved from the beginning (or at least issue #3) so the entry seemed misplaced or at the very least misleading to me.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I didn't ask about "feld" or "field" - the site lists "Rosefeld" (no N). It that a typo or does the indicia spell in without the "N"?
Sorry, missed that and had been reading the feld/field discussion recently so it was on my mind :-)
Quinlan certainly continues to produce Catman, but what evidence is there for Temerson's continued involvement? I've seen the Ulmer letter, and my take on it is not that Ulmer is saying that Temerson is at Holyoke. Unless you know of another letter, I'm still very leery of placing Temerson the man at Holyoke the publisher.
Reading over this one (it was posted while I was writing my previous reply) I agree that it doesn't make a case for Temerson involved in the titles at Holyoke. He may have been, or he may have been shut out until he managed to get them back for Et-Es-Go. The only clear thing is that editorially/creatively there is continuity.
thanks,
-henry
-
There's a letter from Allen Ulmer (not Ullman-not a relative, but a Blue Beetle artist) talking about Temerson being at Holyoke and maybe part owner. It's around here somewhere's. Should nail down a copy so it won't float away.
Yes, that Ulmer I know, although I'd forgotten it directly connected Temerson and Holyoke. Good to know.
I don't think this letter does that. It says that Holyoke (Bowles) "took over Temerson's company." I can't see there being a whole lot of "connection" going on there. It's like saying there was a direct connection between Germany and Belgium at the start of WW2. Well, yeah, but it sort of only went one way.
(|:{>
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I didn't ask about "feld" or "field" - the site lists "Rosefeld" (no N). It that a typo or does the indicia spell in without the "N"?
Sorry, missed that and had been reading the feld/field discussion recently so it was on my mind :-)
Quinlan certainly continues to produce Catman, but what evidence is there for Temerson's continued involvement? I've seen the Ulmer letter, and my take on it is not that Ulmer is saying that Temerson is at Holyoke. Unless you know of another letter, I'm still very leery of placing Temerson the man at Holyoke the publisher.
Reading over this one (it was posted while I was writing my previous reply) I agree that it doesn't make a case for Temerson involved in the titles at Holyoke. He may have been, or he may have been shut out until he managed to get them back for Et-Es-Go. The only clear thing is that editorially/creatively there is continuity.
thanks,
-henry
Absolutely an editorial connection, Henry.
I've never doubted that. I try to be very careful with words when discussing this topic as it's been bandied about for decades with much misunderstanding and misinformation being given and taken as fact. So please understand that I'm just trying to be a stickler for the details when I question these things.
By the way, does anyone have a copy of Speed #s 12 or 13? And does either have an Ownership Statement?
And ps, does Rosefeld have the N or not?
pps. "Lex Publications," 381 Fourth Avenue, which superseded "Ultem" and "Resolute Publications", is in its turn out.
What does "is in its turn out." mean?
(|:{>
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Another overdue thank you:
In several prior posts on this topic I've mentioned a "differing opinion" on some connections. The opinions were those of my partner in comics researching crime for the last 40 years, Hames Ware (who is as equally as responsible as Jerry Bails for the original Who's Who of American Comic Books). His speculation, stimulation and mental agility have kept me on my toes and taught me so much over the years. He is very directly, probably even more so than Mark Carlson, responsible for my "knowledge" on this topic (and so very MANY others.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Sorry about the mix up in the small publisher section, I never set up a Continental section so had not noticed it.
Thanks for the quick fix!
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By the way, does anyone have a copy of Speed #s 12 or 13? And does either have an Ownership Statement?
Speed Comics # 11 was published by Brookwood in "August" 1940 (possibly released in June or July, no earlier than May), issue # 12 was published by Speed Publishing Co in "March" 1941 (actual release may have been January or February, no earlier than December 1940), with # 13 following in "May". It looks like the Statement of Ownership form was usually filed in October, but since nobody was publishing Speed Comics at that point, the Statement may not have been filed for 1940.
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By the way, does anyone have a copy of Speed #s 12 or 13? And does either have an Ownership Statement?
Speed Comics # 11 was published by Brookwood in "August" 1940 (possibly released in June or July, no earlier than May), issue # 12 was published by Speed Publishing Co in "March" 1941 (actual release may have been January or February, no earlier than December 1940), with # 13 following in "May". It looks like the Statement of Ownership form was usually filed in October, but since nobody was publishing Speed Comics at that point, the Statement may not have been filed for 1940.
The Champ[ion] Comics statement for October 1940 appeared in issue #12, cover-date Februrary 1941. Speed #12 was cover-date March 1941 so may well have a statement, assuming Speed was on the same cycle. Although it started two months earlier. The first Champion issue was cover-dated December 1939 so was probably released in October, making October 1940 its one-year mark. But there was that huge gap in Speed Comics, so if there's a first-year statement at all it would most likely be in #12. There is a scan on this site but it does not include any text pages :-( I realize in some cases the scans are from some other scanning effort long ago and we're lucky to have them at all, but it's so frustrating when people leave out those pages. This scan is 65 pages though, so the inside front and inside and outside back covers would bring it to 68, which seems very odd as you need the two pages of text for 2nd-class mail. I just flipped through the whole thing and I don't *think* I missed text pages...
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I didn't ask about "feld" or "field" - the site lists "Rosefeld" (no N). It that a typo or does the indicia spell in without the "N"?
Sorry, missed that and had been reading the feld/field discussion recently so it was on my mind :-)
Quinlan certainly continues to produce Catman, but what evidence is there for Temerson's continued involvement? I've seen the Ulmer letter, and my take on it is not that Ulmer is saying that Temerson is at Holyoke. Unless you know of another letter, I'm still very leery of placing Temerson the man at Holyoke the publisher.
Reading over this one (it was posted while I was writing my previous reply) I agree that it doesn't make a case for Temerson involved in the titles at Holyoke. He may have been, or he may have been shut out until he managed to get them back for Et-Es-Go. The only clear thing is that editorially/creatively there is continuity.
thanks,
-henry
Absolutely an editorial connection, Henry.
I've never doubted that. I try to be very careful with words when discussing this topic as it's been bandied about for decades with much misunderstanding and misinformation being given and taken as fact. So please understand that I'm just trying to be a stickler for the details when I question these things.
Which I very much appreciate. I'm trying to also be precise, but sometimes fail :-P
And ps, does Rosefeld have the N or not?
At this point I'm not sure. The last email I checked on gcd-main did not, so I'm wondering if I mentally fabricated it by accident. I don't have time this morning to go through the archives and do a properly close reading, I'm afraid.
pps. "Lex Publications," 381 Fourth Avenue, which superseded "Ultem" and "Resolute Publications", is in its turn out.
What does "is in its turn out." mean?
Bob's going to have to explain that. I think that means that Lex Publications, like the previous two, ceases to be used and is replaced by yet another company or companies (Brookwood/Tem/Nita).
thanks,
-henry
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Yes, Henry,
That was Hames' thinking, too. If there is an OS for the early Speeds, it would be in issue 12. I own Champ #12 and we extrapolated the possible existence of the corresponding OS in Speed. I'm hoping that Bud Plant might have a copy and be able to review the contents for me looking of an OS. I'll keep you posted.
(|:{>
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It's Rosefeld on the first issue and Rosefield on the second issue, according to Frank Motler.
"Bob,
Per FMI, it's Rosefeld on PAS #1.
http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/t1184.htm
This changes to Rosefield, #2 on.
regards, frank m."
FMI I presume means Fiction Mags Index.
No "n" either time.
Temerson's status at Holyoke is still up in the air pending confirmation from somewhere.
"is in it's turn, out" is a quote from the Writer's Digest article. Have to ask them exactly what it means, but I concur with Henry's guess.
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Yes, Henry,
That was Hames' thinking, too. If there is an OS for the early Speeds, it would be in issue 12. I own Champ #12 and we extrapolated the possible existence of the corresponding OS in Speed. I'm hoping that Bud Plant might have a copy and be able to review the contents for me looking of an OS. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks, Jim! BTW when I was quoting from Champ #12 I didn't mean to lecture you on a comic you had already examined, but I figured not everyone knew the full context of the OS there- it's particularly interesting how the indicia and OS provide two snapshots of Greenwald acquiring the title from Worth. The fact that there was (however briefly) a period where Greenwald controlled the title under the original Worth company name seems interesting. While the OS comes from the same cover month as #11 (and therefore a few months after its production), I've wondered whether #11 changed to Champ Comics (from Champion Comics) and was delayed by a month because Greenwald was already taking it over. Have you seen #11 and does it have anything interesting? For instance, was Worth B. Carnahan still credited as editor in the indicia (and if not, when does that stop? I know he is in #4 but I haven't looked at #5-11).
thanks again,
-henry
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My head hurts.
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My head hurts.
Let me know when it's better. I'll start a thread on the 1944-1945 "Chesler" books and who really published them and how ;D
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My head hurts.
Let me know when it's better. I'll start a thread on the 1944-1945 "Chesler" books and who really published them and how ;D
Mine, too! Knight.
(|:{> !!!
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So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.
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So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.
Perhaps this will explain it more clearly, Narf...
http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf (http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf)
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?
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Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?
But really, narf,
It's not about what "people" want, it's about what's historically accurate. Again, I cite the example of Blue Beetle. Let's do what's right and "people" will figure it out. Honest.
I've given Yoc my suggestions for the various "buckets" into which I believe the books should be filed. I suggested that he share those ideas with the forum, but he seems to be busy with non-DCM issues in his life and hasn't gotten to it yet. There's no rush. These things have been mixed up for 50 years. A couple of more days isn't going to hurt anything....
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Thanks, Jim! BTW when I was quoting from Champ #12 I didn't mean to lecture you on a comic you had already examined, but I figured not everyone knew the full context of the OS there- it's particularly interesting how the indicia and OS provide two snapshots of Greenwald acquiring the title from Worth. The fact that there was (however briefly) a period where Greenwald controlled the title under the original Worth company name seems interesting. While the OS comes from the same cover month as #11 (and therefore a few months after its production), I've wondered whether #11 changed to Champ Comics (from Champion Comics) and was delayed by a month because Greenwald was already taking it over. Have you seen #11 and does it have anything interesting? For instance, was Worth B. Carnahan still credited as editor in the indicia (and if not, when does that stop? I know he is in #4 but I haven't looked at #5-11).
thanks again,
-henry
I didn't take it as a "lecture", Henry,
by all means share information in as much detail as possible.
My list says that I DO have Champ #11, but it's either upstairs or in the mail to Hames Ware. Or perhaps my list is in error. As I was mentioning to Hames earlier today, not having physical access to my comics makes me feel very retarded. Because I never NEEDED to remember all of the details (I simply went upstairs and looked at my notes or at the actual comics), I never DID remember them. Now that I'm physically restricted from jumping up and going upstairs, I feel as if I've had some sort of frontal lobotomy where I can't access half of what I "know". So, alas, I DON'T know if WBC is still listed as the editor. Sorry.
Hames and I suspect that the Ownership Statement in Champ #12 was a done deal when the transfer of ownership happened - in fact the issue may have been ready for the printer. Perhaps, as you say, it was delayed due to the "sale" (which would explain the four month gap between 11 and 12. FYI, here the information on the Worth Champions that I own (or have seen first hand).
CHAMPION COMICS
3 1/40 Worth Pub. Co. ed. 1 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: pending Cleveland, OH
pub @ 1213 West 3rd St, Cleveland OH
ZERO content connection to Temerson or Speed - all typical Barreaux material and characters.
4 2/40 Worth Pub. Co. 1 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: NYC
5 3/40
6 4/40 Worth Pub. Co. 1 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: NYC
7 5/40 Worth Pub. Co. ed. 1 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: Buffalo, NY
pub @ 8 Lord St., Buffalo NY
9 7/40 Worth Pub. Co. ed. 122 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: Buffalo, NY
pub @ 8 Lord St., Buffalo NY
11 10/40 Worth Pub. Co. 122 E 42nd St. NYC 2nd Class: NYC
Adolphe Barreaux is editor
12 2/41 Champ Pub. Co. 225 W 57th St. NYC re-entered as 2nd Class (9/25/40): NYC
listed because of 10/14/40 OS: Owners are Worth Pub. Co. and Leo Greenwald
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Just as a side note: I'm in mid-edit on several of JVJ's early Speed and Champion issues and should be getting them up for viewing soon. (If I hadn't slept most of today with a nasty cold I would have had at least some already.)
And I've said things like this before but it bears repeating: I don't have much to add to the discussion here but just because I'm not saying anything doesn't mean I'm not finding it fascinating! Thanks to all who DO have useful stuff to say.
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So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.
Perhaps this will explain it more clearly, Narf...
http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf (http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf)
Great stuff, Jim! Thanks so much for posting. I've gone over it and have some comments, questions and confirmations :-)
Of particular interest to me is whether there really was a Green Hornet Pub. Co. You mentioned earlier that your Green Hornet data was 2nd-hand. I've seen conflicting reports and been unable to nail down exactly what went on with those. The one indicia scan I've seen is from #2 and is only partial. It says that the issue is *copyright* Helnit Pub. Co., but does not show the name of the actual publisher. I might have to track down a copy of this to satisfy my curiosity, but if anyone knows for sure please speak up and save me some money ;-)
Frank Motler and I went through as much of Cat-Man as we could and confirmed a lot of the numbers in the form shown at http://www.comics.com/series/255/ which seems to agree with your list here. The numbers commonly assumed many places were often wrong. I can't find all of my notes right now to figure out which we were missing, but I can definitely confirm that cover #10 is indicia #v2#15, ed.&adv. 220 W. 42nd st., published 5/1942, pub@Holyoke, 2nd Class: Holyoke. I don't think we were able to confirm #v2#13 (8) or #v2#14 (9).
For Cat-Man cover #1 the scan here is blurry, but it's pretty clearly indicia #v1#6.
Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc. Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.
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Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?
But really, narf,
It's not about what "people" want, it's about what's historically accurate. Again, I cite the example of Blue Beetle. Let's do what's right and "people" will figure it out. Honest.
This is why I've been advocating a system that allows for multiple classifications over at the GCD. We define the facts (who published from what office, who owned, who purchased what from whom, who distributed, under what logos, etc.) and draw associations that let people look things up in different ways. So you can look for books that are strictly Harvey books, or you can include those books that are associated with Harvey (due to a series of title purchases, for example). And that would bring in books that are strictly classified somewhere else. You could even add associations like "falsely linked to" so that people could *find* what they expect (like Narrative, Aviation Press or the Carnahan publishers) while making it clear that there is no real connection (except an art director or a packaging studio, perhaps). Others have been advocating similar things so I'm hoping that over the course of the next year we'll be able to implement it, or at least start.
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BTW, I don't think this has been covered already, but does anyone disagree with me that Captain Aero's numbering (v1#7 in the indicia for the first issue) continued from Green Hornet, which ended with #6? The commonly propagated theory for Captain Aero is that it continued Samson's numbering, which I think is just more fallout from the Holyoke myth. The first Captain Aero issue was from Helnit, not Holyoke, and Holyoke did not acquire Blue Beetle until several months later. Blue Beetle #10 was the same month as Captain Aero #1 and the last fox issue (#11) was two months later. I can't think of any reason that a Helnit title would continue the numbering of a Fox title. Especially when there's a canceled Helnit title with exactly the right number available. Someone just conflated Holyoke and Fox and grabbed a six-issue series that ended at more-or-less the right time (half a year before Fox called it quits!)
The Harvey (Family Comics, Inc.) Green Hornet started half a year later. Whether it managed to also get the mailing permit somehow (Goodman apparently managed that with Comedy and Daring) or whether they just started with #7 to avoid confusion among readers, I don't know. But I don't think that Harvey's series, from several months later, is reason to assume that Helnit didn't recycle those numbers for Captain Aero.
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I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.
I agree that it's best to record what is there and, peripherally, indicate real or possible connections. How is the multiple connectivity search mechanism accessible in GCD? Or is it in the planning stages?
Yes, of course Capt. Aero came from Green Hornet, just as Cat-Man came from Crash. I thought that was self-evident. I mean, at the time of Captain Aero #1, no one even knew that Harvey was going to exist, let alone take up the numbering sequencing of Green Hornet.
Revisit the pdf link as I've added Crash #5, too, which for some reason I omitted in the first version.
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I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.
Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-) But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that. I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)
I agree that it's best to record what is there and, peripherally, indicate real or possible connections. How is the multiple connectivity search mechanism accessible in GCD? Or is it in the planning stages?
Planning stages. However, my talk at WonderCon last weekend may have netted us a search developer so I'm hoping he decides to indeed join the project and work on our long-awaited search overhaul. There's also some back-end database work to be done to support this, which is high on my personal list of priorities. But a few other GCD priorities come first (like it would be nice to be able to delete things- that's kind of a glaring omission right now).
Yes, of course Capt. Aero came from Green Hornet, just as Cat-Man came from Crash. I thought that was self-evident. I mean, at the time of Captain Aero #1, no one even knew that Harvey was going to exist, let alone take up the numbering sequencing of Green Hornet.
Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places. As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.
Revisit the pdf link as I've added Crash #5, too, which for some reason I omitted in the first version.
Thanks, will do!
-henry
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Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc. Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.
Didn't you mean 9/1941, Henry?
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Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc. Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.
Didn't you mean 9/1941, Henry?
Yes I did :-) Just double-checked to make sure there wasn't a typo or anything. September 1941 in the indicia, issue #2.
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Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places. As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.
-henry
Speaking of "entrenched", Henry,
I notice that people are still unsure whether Eisner in involved on the early Dr. Drew stories in Rangers. Darkmark continues to hedge his bets in a post here on the "Most Under-appreciated comic" thread. Those stories are signed "Jerry Grandenetti" but look more like Eisner and Co. than Grandenetti ever did before or since. We know what JG's art really looks like and the early Dr. Drews are more Eisner than him. At one point Grandenetti goes solo, still signing, but the style changes drastically and becomes much more recognizably him.
As for the Senorita Rio stories (#65 & 66), Hames Ware and Henry Steele (and I) have all debunked the notion that these are Grandenetti. I wish you wouldn't perpetuate outdated info, dm.
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Well, yeah, I thought so, but I see that wacky Samson theory in so many places. As I've gotten deeper in the research side of comics it's been interesting to see what's entrenched in peoples' minds, and what's just been repeated more because no one thought to question it than because anyone really thought it was true.
-henry
Speaking of "entrenched", Henry,
I notice that people are still unsure whether Eisner in involved on the early Dr. Drew stories in Rangers. Darkmark continues to hedge his bets in a post here on the "Most Under-appreciated comic" thread. Those stories are signed "Jerry Grandenetti" but look more like Eisner and Co. than Grandenetti ever did before or since. We know what JG's art really looks like and the early Dr. Drews are more Eisner than him. At one point Grandenetti goes solo, still signing, but the style changes drastically and becomes much more recognizably him.
As for the Senorita Rio stories (#65 & 66), Hames Ware and Henry Steele (and I) have all debunked the notion that these are Grandenetti. I wish you wouldn't perpetuate outdated info, dm.
Has this discussion made it into the GCD? If no one here wants to go in and work on the indexes themselves, if there's a summary you can write or point me to I can at least file an error report so it doesn't get forgotten. I like to at least get the right names in the fields (for searching) with a listing of the positions being argued and who has ID'd what so folks can draw their own conclusions. And of course if a position has stronger evidence, that should go in the fields and the notes should just explain why the older theory has been debunked so that folks don't change it back.
thanks,
-henry [who has not seen the stories in question and is a mediocre art spotter at best anyway]
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The data is already IN GCD, Henry,
That's why I was surprised to see DM's post. Henry, Hames and I updated all of those listings to be accurate as we can be and they should be respected unless someone has some additional and newly accredited information.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.
Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-) But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that. I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)
The Green Hornet Pub co. stuff came from Keltner's index, which has always seemed to be pretty accurate, as far as it goes.
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Mike Feldman sees a connection between Speed Comics and Speed Pulps- the successor to the Spicy line.
I can't find this connection, other than Barreaux (did I spell it right that time?). I don't even think the time periods match.
The Speed magazines according to the Fiction Mags index were still published by Trojan.
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I just changed "my" Helnit listings for Green Hornet to Bob's Green Hornet Pub. Co. based on my apparently erroneously belief that HE had more and better info than I. I've changed them back to Helnit(?) until we get confirmation one way or the other.
Bob might have something- we'll see what he says :-) But the GCD record has it as Helnit for #1 and Green Hornet Pub. Co. for #2-6, so he might have just used that. I'm as skeptical of that as I am of any other Temerson/Carnahan/Holyoke data that hasn't been gone over either in the thread on gcd-main earlier this year or in this thread :-)
The Green Hornet Pub co. stuff came from Keltner's index, which has always seemed to be pretty accurate, as far as it goes.
Keltner's index is wonderful, and one of my favorite resources, but it's got errors just like any large project (and not just in the groupings). The indicia publishers listed for several Chesler books are wrong, as discussed on gcd-main around the new year (the GCD now has all of those set correctly, although the whole "surrogate" question is still open on some, and a few are not grouped properly). Also, Keltner's issue/volume numbers for Cat-Man have several errors, and I believe his index is the source of Narrative, Aviation Press and Bilbara being improperly grouped, as well as being the first place I saw the "Captain Aero continues from Samson" theory. That plus the one scanned copyright statement listing Helnit makes me skeptical.
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Hames Ware and I refer to ourselves as "VWinc" with inc standing for Information NEWLY Compiled. Copying information that was compiled 40 years ago is NOT research. Sure, it might be right, but it also might be a mistake or a misinterpretation. That's why I'm currently limiting myself to, at most, second hand information. Either I have seen the books or the scans or someone I trust has seen them. I hope that this thread will lead to an update of what is considered "known" about this topic, and I heartily thank all of those participating.
One thing I would LOVE to see is the entire article that Will Murray found in the April issue of Writer's Digest. Does anyone have a scan of that?
Champion #6 Adolphe Barreaux studio material begins to appear.
This is erroneous on your Temerson page, Bob. Barreaux is working in Champion as early as issue #3 (Jan. 1940).
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Champion #6 Adolphe Barreaux studio material begins to appear.
This is erroneous on your Temerson page, Bob. Barreaux is working in Champion as early as issue #3 (Jan. 1940).
You're correct of course. The whole page is a work in progress as I manage to find and look at the originals. First hand obseravation is always better than second hand, or third hand, or God help us, Wikipedia.
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Several of my earliest Champs and Speeds are being scanned by OtherEric on GAC, Bob, so you might have some more first hand access soon.
I would never look at Wikipedia for information on such things. Without provenance, the data is untrustworthy.
Speaking of which, do you have the Writer's Digest information (the raw scan or photocopy or whatever) that Will Murray provided you with? I really would love to see it.
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Will Murray's three printed articles on the Writer's Digest appeared in Alter Ego 25, 32, and 33. The section he quoted to me from was in Alter Ego 32. There are no scans of actual Writer's Digest pages in there, but there are extensive quotes.
There were two articles on Sherman Bowles in Time Magazine, on Oct. 14, 1946 and March 10, 1947 mostly about labor relations with the four! newspapers he owned in Springfield Mass. They had been in his family for four generations before he managed to run them into the ground. It is noted that he "divested" himself of all ownership and turned them over to his secretary to avoid lawsuits and now claimed to be merely an advertising rep. Bowles died in 1952. One of the newspapers is still hanging on by a thread but it's not family owned anymore. Based on the articles I very much doubt Temerson ever "co-owned" anything with Bowles. He might have been an employee though.
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Thanks, Bob,
I'll have to wait a bit before tackling the AE (they're upstairs and tricky to get at). I've read the Time Magazine pieces, not much germane to our discussion except the revelation of just who Mary Gallegher was. The ownership statement in, I think, Sparkling Stars lists her as owner.
You're right, I can't see a scenario where Temerson and Bowles "co-owned" anything, either. Hames' theory is that Bowles took over CatMan and Capt. Aero in lieu of unpaid printing bills and they weren't returned until Temerson raised the requisite funds to pay off the old debt. So our view is that Temerson was originally the publisher and Bowles/Holyoke the occasional printer. Then Bowles/Holyoke became publisher and printer. Eventually Temerson raises some capital, pays off his debt, becomes a publisher again and goes to a different(?) printer. Would be interested to know if Bowles had any holdings in the printing plant at 420 DeSoto in St. Louis, MO, where the Et-Es-Go/Continental were printed, OR the one in Meriden CT where some Tem/Nita/Brookwood books were printed. Just how much was Bowles involved in the printing industry?
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The St Louis plant was World Color Press before they moved to Sparta. See:
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/World-Color-Press-Inc-Company-History.html (http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/World-Color-Press-Inc-Company-History.html)
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From Wikipedia (I know, I know...)
In March 1924, a newspaper in Waterbury, Connecticut purchased a Goss International single-width press to use in printing color newspaper comics sections. The Knickerbocker Press of Albany, New York, and the Springfield Republican of Springfield, Massachusetts, approached the Republican about using the press to print their own color comics supplements. The Springfield Union soon afterward did as well. The Eastern Color Printing Company, incorporated in August 1928 with William B. Pape as its vice president and principal executive officer, acquired the press and replaced it with a Goss four-deck press. The company acquired additional presses in 1929 and 1931. During this time period, Eastern, headquartered at 61 Leavenworth Street in Waterbury, established itself in the pulp magazine industry by being one of the few firms to print color covers for the pulps.
1941
Finding it necessary to do [its] own cover printing and binding for its successful comic books, Eastern acquires the Curtiss-Way plant in Meriden. Curtiss-Way was a Meriden printing facility dating back at least as far as 1895, when it was known as the Converse Publishing Company.
Most of the useful information in this article seems to be stolen from the CT Historical Society Exhibit "Heroes, Heartthrobs, and Horrors" about the birth of the comic book in Connecticut. Sadly this article, which I remember reading, is no longer on line. I hope the mistakes here (like M. C. Gaines selling his comics to Dell before founding EC) weren't in it.
Anyhow, the Springfield Republican did at one time print their stuff in Connecticut. And the Curtiss Way plant in Meriden seems to have printed covers, (often not printed in the same place as the insides of comics) and then bound them together.
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Heroes, Heartthrobs and Horrors (http://web.archive.org/web/20060520133749/www.chs.org/comics/). ;)
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Mike Feldman sees a connection between Speed Comics and Speed Pulps- the successor to the Spicy line.
I can't find this connection, other than Barreaux (did I spell it right that time?). I don't even think the time periods match.
Hi Bob, jumping in here. Been out of this stuff for a while. The above is not true and I never asserted it.
I'm amazed reading these threads how out of the loop people are about the publishing business. Comic book history is not Biblical scholarship. Information provided by the marginal publishers was a mailing requirement - not Holy Writ.
Distributors like PDC and Kable fronted lines often in tandem with printers and paper brokers. People like Sherman Bowles did not want their names to appear. But he was Holyoke. Most of the jobs came from his dedicated comic supplement press...
Seem to have run out of space here.
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Mike, I may have misquoted you (or misquoted someone who misquoted you). Bowles is Holyoke. That much we've got straight. No question. He liked to pretend he wasn't. That much we've got straight.
The guys we're still wondering about are Temerson (where did he go while Bowles was publishing Cat-Man?), and Greenwald (was he fronting for PDC? or somebody else?). We're all quite aware that printers and distributors front these guys money and then seize their assets when they can't pay it back.
The interesting wrinkle in the Holyoke case, is that both Fox and Temerson somehow got their lines back from Holyoke (Bowles). The Fox stuff is documented in court filings. Temerson, not so much.
There's a lot of stuff on the internet that attempts to link Carnahan via Barreaux to Trojan. It's even in Jerry's Who's Who. I don't find any evidence to support that. Do you?
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Hi Bob, jumping in here. Been out of this stuff for a while. The above is not true and I never asserted it.
I'm amazed reading these threads how out of the loop people are about the publishing business. Comic book history is not Biblical scholarship. Information provided by the marginal publishers was a mailing requirement - not Holy Writ.
Distributors like PDC and Kable fronted lines often in tandem with printers and paper brokers. People like Sherman Bowles did not want their names to appear. But he was Holyoke. Most of the jobs came from his dedicated comic supplement press...
Hi, Mike,
The last question I asked was whether or not Bowles had anything to do with World Color Press at 420 DeSoto in St. Louis? While we appreciate the impact of distributors and printers on the various smaller companies, it only kicks the research difficulty up a notch as we attempt to push the curtain back. I don't believe we're "out of the loop." It's quite obvious that Bowles didn't want to be seen fronting the comics. Okay, that explains Holyoke and Mary Gallegher. Now, if you have the information, can you tell us who Ray R. Hermann or Marjorie May were fronting for? Who owned the presses at Meriden and at 420 DeSoto (World Color, of course, but which comics did they have a stake in)?
It's one thing to maintain that there are connections behind connections, but that doesn't make them impenetrable - just more difficult to ascertain. Who were the front men for these presses? How were the distributors aligned with the various printing companies? How DID Temerson get his comics back from Bowles/Holyoke/Gallegher? Things happened for a reason. This is history - which is not Biblical Allegory, but discernible (we hope) fact.
Come on in and join the fun. The water's murky, but it's fine.
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Guys,
The point I try to emphasize is that the indicia and other publisher supplied information cannot always be used as Gospel. My information sources are broader and deeper and I think I have a clearer picture of the scenarios.
I've had extensive conversations with real old-timers like Jack Adams who was IND's general manager, the hands on guy, 1939-53. Other stories even first hand accounts of Bowles with people who he backed.
Comics were a good investment by 1940, with the success rate being 60-70%. Various deals were cut with distributors, printers, paper suppliers and outside dabblers, often lawyers. Layers of obfuscation were created to obscure the money sources.
People like Leo Greewald and Temerson where hired gun nominal publishers given the task of making sure product came down the pike in time and on budget. They were the ones who put their name on the periodicals, for legal and postal requirements, but at best were front men with minority participation.
A problem is these mags changed hands and ownership positions all the time, often issue to issue. PDC typically would front the credit line for paper and printing (80% of the costs) and take a 25% position in a start-up company. When sales were below expectations and bills were unpaid, they increased their shareholding to the point they were in control. Then a decision was made whether to keep the original crew and publisher or tune the operation over to a new 'packager.'
There was a crisis on the newsstand s in mid-1940 when Britain was fighting for its existence and everyone was glued to their radio sets. Too many new comics on the stand, many with unappealing contents, and there was something of an implosion.
Publishers and distributors, often the same people, huddled and decided they had to get more reliable professional content management...
Ex-porn guys like Greenwald and Carnahan were out and a new crop of comics professionals were sought. Greenwald initially oversaw an operation from which content for both Centaur and Ace were generated. He was moved elsewhere if I recall, maybe to girly mags.
More to it than that, of course. There was a war on with the independents against the America News Company stranglehold on distribution, and comics lead the way in breaking their monopoly in many regions.
More comics meant less space for other products, and printing prices came down as new arrangements were made for dedicated 4-color presses and redistribution channels.
Maybe more later.
Mike
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There's a lot of stuff on the internet that attempts to link Carnahan via Barreaux to Trojan. It's even in Jerry's Who's Who. I don't find any evidence to support that. Do you?
Bob,
I think I supplied Jerry with the info on Carnahan. Worth Carnahan was employed by the soft porn arm of what evolved to DC, c1927-39, initially as a staff artist eventually becoming inhouse art director and an editor.
He interfaced with Barreaux who was a feature packager and editor from the late 20s right into the early 50s when he reprinted his own comic features done for the SPICY/SPEED line for Trojan Comics.
These were carried by new distributor, Leader News, a Sampliner alternative company set up in 1939 to carry to more contentious stuff that they didn’t want connected to the burgeoning comics lines. Frank Armer was CEO. It was a consolation prize for him as he was taken out of the comics money loop.
The picture gets complicated because there were increasing mob interests in periodical distribution throughout the 40s that came to a head in 1947. Bowles pulled out and the fringe comic publishing end served a different purpose. A means of leverage with wholesalers.
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Yes, Michael,
we understand this general overview. You've made it clear. What we're asking for are the DETAILS. If you've talked to all of these guys "extensive conversations" - so can you give us some of the dirt instead of kicking up the same dust over and over again?
We'd all be grateful.
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There's a lot of stuff on the internet that attempts to link Carnahan via Barreaux to Trojan. It's even in Jerry's Who's Who. I don't find any evidence to support that. Do you?
Bob,
I think I supplied Jerry with the info on Carnahan. Worth Carnahan was employed by the soft porn arm of what evolved to DC, c1927-39, initially as a staff artist eventually becoming inhouse art director and an editor.
He interfaced with Barreaux who was a feature packager and editor from the late 20s right into the early 50s when he reprinted his own comic features done for the SPICY/SPEED line for Trojan Comics.
These were carried by new distributor, Leader News, a Sampliner alternative company set up in 1939 to carry to more contentious stuff that they didn’t want connected to the burgeoning comics lines. Frank Armer was CEO. It was a consolation prize for him as he was taken out of the comics money loop.
The picture gets complicated because there were increasing mob interests in periodical distribution throughout the 40s that came to a head in 1947. Bowles pulled out and the fringe comic publishing end served a different purpose. A means of leverage with wholesalers.
yeah, stuff like this.
Do you have actual dates for these events? I.E. did Bowles pull out in 1947? If so how did Sparkling Stars last until 1948? Did he divest himself of Holyoke? See, all of these stories you relate have some manifestation in the real world of comics and we're trying to establish that relationship.
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Guys,
The point I try to emphasize is that the indicia and other publisher supplied information cannot always be used as Gospel. My information sources are broader and deeper and I think I have a clearer picture of the scenarios.
I've had extensive conversations with real old-timers like Jack Adams who was IND's general manager, the hands on guy, 1939-53. Other stories even first hand accounts of Bowles with people who he backed.
And those people are? And they said what? I get the sense that perhaps you don't want to be explicit. What's the problem?
Comics were a good investment by 1940, with the success rate being 60-70%. Various deals were cut with distributors, printers, paper suppliers and outside dabblers, often lawyers. Layers of obfuscation were created to obscure the money sources.
People like Leo Greewald and Temerson where hired gun nominal publishers given the task of making sure product came down the pike in time and on budget. They were the ones who put their name on the periodicals, for legal and postal requirements, but at best were front men with minority participation.
makes sense, but "front men" for WHOM? Every thing you say seems valid but also seems deliberately vague. You keep telling us we don't the whole story and appear to only want to share the "chapter titles" of the real story. WUWT?
A problem is these mags changed hands and ownership positions all the time, often issue to issue.
again, give us a couple of real world examples if this was so prevalent.
PDC typically would front the credit line for paper and printing (80% of the costs) and take a 25% position in a start-up company. When sales were below expectations and bills were unpaid, they increased their shareholding to the point they were in control. Then a decision was made whether to keep the original crew and publisher or tune the operation over to a new 'packager.'
There was a crisis on the newsstand s in mid-1940 when Britain was fighting for its existence and everyone was glued to their radio sets. Too many new comics on the stand, many with unappealing contents, and there was something of an implosion.
Which "new comics" imploded? All of these statements you make are tantalizing and they have to have manifestations in the published world. Can YOU make the connections for us?
Publishers and distributors, often the same people, huddled and decided they had to get more reliable professional content management...
Ex-porn guys like Greenwald and Carnahan were out and a new crop of comics professionals were sought. Greenwald initially oversaw an operation from which content for both Centaur and Ace were generated. He was moved elsewhere if I recall, maybe to girly mags.
More to it than that, of course. There was a war on with the independents against the America News Company stranglehold on distribution, and comics lead the way in breaking their monopoly in many regions.
More comics meant less space for other products, and printing prices came down as new arrangements were made for dedicated 4-color presses and redistribution channels.
Maybe more later.
Mike
Lots of questions????
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Jim,
Trying to address your concerns. I do not take comic book sourced information seriously when it comes from marginal publishers. You people do, and it leads you down endless rabbit holes. Many of these publishing entities you are concerned about were simple bookkeeping fabrications designed to avoid tax implications, supply distributors with fodder, or move quantities of cheap paper.
The money sources were intentionally concealed. You will never know who put up what and for how long. The IRS had trouble penetrating these mazes even back then. Jack Adams once told me how a mysterious company, what was it? – Lafayette? – came to be. He was one of the investors. Donenfeld, Gaines, Liebowitz, and a couple regional wholesalers put up some money for a news-educational title idea floating around. I think there was a GUMPS newspaper strip title as well.
In the flood of new product 1946-7, the titles failed. A failed venture. Nothing in the printed material indicates the real back story.
SPARKLING STARS from what I recall was someone in publishing who decided to take a flyer on a comic title or two. They likely cut a deal with Bowles on a line of credit. Who knows who the guarantors were or if they assumed control at some point.
The position of distributor, paper supplier, printer, content provider we will never know on these small scale projects. And I don't see how it matters all that much. This obsession with separating companies and their product works with majors like DC, Fawcett, Dell, etc. But breaks down as you approach the fringes. A group of investors, which could be a couple lawyers, guys at the racetrack trying to launder profits, a hungry paper broker. They might put some money in and pull out when they lost.
For Post Office regulations and the IRS publisher information had to be supplied. But it didn’t necessarily reflect the true nature of the virtual operation. Many companies were just a packager delivering material to a printer and the distributor handling the profit dispersement.
My best guess is that in many cases a comic book started out with a distributor providing initial paper-printing credit, a group of wholesalers sharing the risk and the nominal publisher having a small stake which could grow if the thing flew.
It is 2010. Most of the long-term company histories have been tracked in laborious detail. Some titles will remain a mystery with only tantalizing published info as leads. That is were the trail will end in most cases.
More intriguing would be investigation of the distribution and wholesaler network, a sorely neglected area of research. In the 1940-54 period, Irwin Molasky, a large wholesaler in St Louis, who helped put DC on the map, occasionally bankrolled a title or two as a side venture. He made sure his name never appeared in a publication, except maybe as a DC silent partner on a couple occasions. He was behind many of these loosey goosey operations you guys seem fixated on. But I never see him mentioned anywhere.
I’m sorry if I sound supercilious but I’ve done a lot of primary research in to comics and ephemeral American publishing. I provided a lot of inside dope when I participated in GCD boards. Most of it ignored it seems.
I see the same comics researchers running around on the same loop they were 20 years ago without much kn owledge of the bigger picture. Expand your horizons and move beyond those indicias if you want deeper answers.
Mike
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mmiichael
I'm not entirely sure of what you are aiming for here, with your comments.
Do you want this thread to be stopped, because they are all wrong in the desire to hunt down obscure publishers (which seems to be the main point I draw from your comments)
Are you saying it's pointless and a waste of time, if so, they are enjoying themselves...it's their time to waste, and are harming no one.
You keep throwing up vague references without any solidity, you MUST know this is going to drive them insane, if you've read the whole thread.
The reason I posted this, is not to pick on you, but to try to prevent this descending into nastiness.
If you have some input, please put in a form that is more ...friendly to the aims of this thread.
If you have another form of attack, to track down publishers/owners/backers as you mentioned, start another thread, I am 100% certain that'll be better than seemingly, to me at least, in derailing this one.
:)
Zog
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I see the same comics researchers running around on the same loop they were 20 years ago without much kn owledge of the bigger picture. Expand your horizons and move beyond those indicias if you want deeper answers.
So basically what you're saying is "I know a lot of things you don't, but I'm not going to tell you." I don't see anyone here fighting you on these concepts, or trying to tell you that you're wrong at all. The only thing I see here is people who would like to benefit from your research. Is there some reason you feel you must withhold your work from us? Is there anything that would make you reconsider?
Not all of us were around for previous rounds of discussions. I've only become interested in these sorts of topics within the last year. It's extremely frustrating to me for someone who seems to have more than the usual number of answers to specifically refuse to share them because someone else entirely disregarded those answers in the past. I don't have a problem with being told to do my own research instead of trying to make other folks do it. But having to *re-do* someone else's good, useful research seems like a waste of time for all of us in the comics community who are more interested in the truth than in past battles.
thanks,
-henry
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I'm sorry if what I have said as been taken in an offensive way.
I am trying to be helpful in showing how one cannot apply the usual structure of a 'publisher' to the originators of many marginal publications.
In most cases there was no single company 'owner', nor offices, publishing plans or scheduling, etc. It will be a source of permanent frustration to those trying to force a square peg into a round hole by deciphering the provided data from the comics themselves.
I stopped posting on message boards years ago because there were people who took this as an affront to their efforts. Maybe this is a cue to continue my discussions offlist with those who can see the bigger picture.
Again sorry if this sounds disparaging. But after decades of futile attempts being made to do nail down publishers using the wrong tools I'd say it's time to consider a fuller understanding of the realities of publishing world rather than trying to impose imaginary pubication structures which where not there.
M
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One of the great hindrances of research has always been access to information. For most of the "history" of comics research, the people with access to the players didn't have full access to their product. People doing the interviews didn't know enough about the comics themselves. GAC/DCM and others have solved some of that, and folks like me are hoping that by providing more raw material, some deeper insight might be gained.
So, you seem to have some deeper insight and have asked some serious people some serious questions. All we're trying to do is to take your "bigger picture" and fill in some of the gaps in our own limited understanding. The more data you can (or are willing to) provide, the clearer the historic picture can be. No one is arguing with you. We're trying to get you to be less vague and to provide as many specifics as possible.
Like the limited access to the actual comics that used to be a reality, now we're faced with limited access to your knowledge - which we're unable to duplicate on our own because the people aren't around anymore. We just want the benefit of what you know and you seem to be chastising and marginalizing us for asking.
Kinda frustrating, actually.
(|:{>
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I'm sorry if what I have said as been taken in an offensive way.
I am trying to be helpful in showing how one cannot apply the usual structure of a 'publisher' to the originators of many marginal publications.
In most cases there was no single company 'owner', nor offices, publishing plans or scheduling, etc. It will be a source of permanent frustration to those trying to force a square peg into a round hole by deciphering the provided data from the comics themselves.
I stopped posting on message boards years ago because there were people who took this as an affront to their efforts. Maybe this is a cue to continue my discussions offlist with those who can see the bigger picture.
Mike, I'm trying to say that I either accept or find reasonable all of your points. I don't see anyone here saying that your ideas are an affront to our efforts. We all just want to hear your ideas. Not just hear you tell us we're looking at the wrong thing- OK, we're looking at the wrong thing, let's move on and discuss the right thing. Will you help us?
Again sorry if this sounds disparaging. But after decades of futile attempts being made to do nail down publishers using the wrong tools I'd say it's time to consider a fuller understanding of the realities of publishing world rather than trying to impose imaginary pubication structures which where not there.
Which we're all trying to do here. Again, will you help us? I can't deal with whatever problems you had with other people in the past. I'm not arguing against any of your points. Can you accept that we accept what you're saying and not keep hammering on past disagreements, which many of us were not a party to? This whole thread is about dismantling the myths surrounding supposed "publishing groups" like Holyoke. We've started by looking past Holyoke to figures like Temerson. You've said that Temerson is just another smokescreen. Great, that's progress! What's next?
thanks,
-henry
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The interesting wrinkle in the Holyoke case, is that both Fox and Temerson somehow got their lines back from Holyoke (Bowles). The Fox stuff is documented in court filings. Temerson, not so much.
Sliding slightly off-topic, I realize, but does anyone know if there's a summary (or the original documents, for that matter) available for the Fox filings? I'm rather curious about that process, myself.
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DOWN BUT NOT OUT (http://www.comicartville.com/victorfoxpg2.htm)
(section at the bottom of the this article by Jon Berk, he didn't mention his sources but you probably could e-mail and ask him).
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DOWN BUT NOT OUT (http://www.comicartville.com/victorfoxpg2.htm)
(section at the bottom of the this article by Jon Berk, he didn't mention his sources but you probably could e-mail and ask him).
This does have the scan of the little notice for the Fox bankruptcy proceedings and Fox's purchase of a paper mill. However, it also has a number of the common folklore inaccuracies, so reader beware (for instance, the persistent assertion that Captain Aero's numbering followed from Fox's Samson, already discussed and debunked in this thread).
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DOWN BUT NOT OUT (http://www.comicartville.com/victorfoxpg2.htm)
(section at the bottom of the this article by Jon Berk, he didn't mention his sources but you probably could e-mail and ask him).
This is an excellent example of where you could help straighten us out, M.
Is Victor Fox one of the guys who was "set up" by the guys behind the scenes? If so, was he set up by the distributors? Berk's post says that Fox went bankrupt because the distributor went under. So is all that bogus? Financial under the table shenanigans? If the Berk Fox post can be trusted in this Down But Not Out section (never mind the other inaccuracies), can you shine some light on the what went on in the world that you've studied?
And did Bowles (Holyoke) have some connection with any of the creditors Berk names (Bulkley, Dunton & Co., Phelps Publishing, and Chemical Photo Engraving Inc.)? It would seem like he must have or why else did he end up with Blue Beetle?
I'm pretty sure that the statement that " Fox started a new line of comics and wrested Blue Beetle Comics back from Holyoke Publishing Co." is a gross oversimplification of a much more complex deal, but perhaps you can sort that out for us as well. We're trying to deal in the real world here, not in the maze of indicia.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I respect the pioneer comic historians like Jerry Bails, Jim V, Hames Ware - who accumulated data and tracked down so many veterans.
But copyrights information, past media sources, shared fan researches are now online and deeper investigation is possible. John Berk did a great piece on Fox for one of the fanzines and it is now online at Comicartville.
Quoting:
"Fox was forced into involuntary bankruptcy on March 6, 1942 by a number of his creditors including, Bulkley, Dunton & Co., Phelps Publishing, and Chemical Photo Engraving Inc. with monies owed in excess of $100,000. (This was due in no small part to the fact its distributor, Colonial News, Inc. went under, owing Fox Publishing $173,551.)"
These are the entities positioned to assume control of Fox's assets, inventory and 2nd class mailing rights deposits especially. (Note in 1944 Fox successfully petitioned for the return of these giving is unpaid creditors a 33% stake in the proceeds)
Bukley, Dunton was a paper supplier, Phelps was a Bowles subsidiary, and Chemical Photo Engraving was a service used by most Manhattan comic publishers.
Based on accumulated circumstantial evidence, I am pretty certain Temerson, originally a crooked attorney from Alabama was put in charge of a consortium of the a couple of the above interests, primarily Bowles, operating as Holyoke. A somewhat suspicious operation according to those who interfaced with them, with fancy offices in Lower Manhattan. A constant stream of low end mags, racy humour digests, cheap pulps, exploitational sheets. PDC and Kable were the main distributors and very likely silent partners.
In the day Massachussets, New Jersey and Connecticut mailing addresses were used to discourage visitors but also because securing mailing rights was easier out of New York State. Publishing entities were often incorporated in Delaware as it has especially lenient laws regarding culpability in the event of bankruptcies and legal transgressions.
When the information inside a publication instructs readers to send subscription money to a printer’s address, it is usually an indication the nominal publisher is just a front.
Holyoke looks to me like a catch-all umbrella for a number of small lines and the entity TIME magazine referred to in a contemporary report on Bowles’s activities. Very likely a benign secondary mob operation that couldn’t help but do well in the 1943-5 period when everything in print was selling full runs.
The Holyoke operation is still around into the 60s, assembling publications on site for cheap magazines mostly, but pretty much out of comics by 1947. A series of labour disputes that year put Bowles’s newspapers out of action for a while and he sold off many of his assets. The also took control of much of the periodical distribution lines that year.
They had their own dedicated publication lines like the new Fox, and Leader News product like the Trojan line of comics and pulps, companies like Youthful, Master, etc.
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When the information inside a publication instructs readers to send subscription money to a printer’s address, it is usually an indication the nominal publisher is just a front.
Holyoke looks to me like a catch-all umbrella for a number of small lines and the entity TIME magazine referred to in a contemporary report on Bowles’s activities. Very likely a benign secondary mob operation that couldn’t help but do well in the 1943-5 period when everything in print was selling full runs.
The Holyoke operation is still around into the 60s, assembling publications on site for cheap magazines mostly, but pretty much out of comics by 1947. A series of labour disputes that year put Bowles’s newspapers out of action for a while and he sold off many of his assets. The also took control of much of the periodical distribution lines that year.
They had their own dedicated publication lines like the new Fox, and Leader News product like the Trojan line of comics and pulps, companies like Youthful, Master, etc.
Hi Mike,
I think something that would be really helpful is some guidance on what should be recorded about these "publishers" and how it should be specified and linked together. There's lots of information in your post, but it's rather hard to get a handle on it. If I had to cite it in another thread somewhere, I'd be reduced to saying something like "Mike Feldman thinks..." which is likely to end up implying the wrong thing and is how we got into this in the first place.
I've advocated in the past a system of recording known entities (corporations, legal owners, addresses, credited publishers/editors/art directors, etc.) and both documented and speculative associations. For instance, the Fox bankruptcy and "Holyoke"s acquisition of Blue Beetle has some documentation behind it, per the Berk article. Sometimes shared addresses are significant (for instance, your observation about subscription addresses being the same as printer addresses, and what that means). Sometimes they are not, and in some cases we can document that as well.
What should be documented here? Which companies (Brookwood, Tem, Nita, Helnit, Et-Es-Go, Continental, Worth, Bilbara, Hit, Holyoke) were tied to which other entities (distributors, creditors, shadowy mafia "entities", etc.?) I don't think anyone here disputes that the system of "Master Publishers" perpetuated in various places completely fails to capture what was actually going on. We're trying to figure out what *does* capture *useful* information. And figure out how to record that (well, at least that's my agenda here).
If you have a system, we would love to hear it. But it's hard to make a useful fact out of a general assertion that Holyoke was a catch-all umbrella for something shady. We pretty much figured that out. When exactly does Temerson get pulled in? Were his earlier companies part of a different shady activity, or was it the thing we're dubbing "Holyoke" (not to be confused with Holyoke Publishing Co., Inc., the indicia publisher) that was behind it all including things like Brookwood, Tem and Nita? These details are key.
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If this ever gets put in a coherent form I would bet Roy would love to publish it in Alter Ego. Would make a great article and be preserved for posterity.
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Mike,
I keep hearing "vagueness" and "generalities". I sense that you don't mean them as such and I'm not trying to be difficult, but
Based on accumulated circumstantial evidence, I am pretty certain Temerson, originally a crooked attorney from Alabama was put in charge of a consortium of the a couple of the above interests, primarily Bowles, operating as Holyoke. A somewhat suspicious operation according to those who interfaced with them, with fancy offices in Lower Manhattan.
really leaves me with more questions than it answers.
1. WHAT evidence (circumstantial or otherwise)?
2. Are you saying that Temerson was in charge of Bowles?
3. WHO interfaced with Temerson?
4. WHEN?
5. WHO put him "in charge"?
I could go on, but it's maddening. You have a receptive audience here for your research and feels like we have to PULL every FACT out of you. I agree with Henry that all we end up with is "Mike Feldman seems to say..."
---
(|:{>
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Ex-porn guys like Greenwald and Carnahan were out and a new crop of comics professionals were sought. Greenwald initially oversaw an operation from which content for both Centaur and Ace were generated. He was moved elsewhere if I recall, maybe to girly mags.
I, personally, would like to hear more about the Greenwald & Centaur connection, although I do realize it's off-topic in regards to "Holyoke, etc". Perhaps a new thread, if it's not too much trouble?
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If this ever gets put in a coherent form I would bet Roy would love to publish it in Alter Ego. Would make a great article and be preserved for posterity.
While I would defer to anyone with a deeper knowledge of the topic and history, if none of those folks have the time or inclination I'd be happy to take a shot at a write-up of the current state of knowledge and its sources. Hopefully including the stuff Mike's bringing up.
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Fascinating discussion. :)
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Is Victor Fox one of the guys who was "set up" by the guys behind the scenes? If so, was he set up by the distributors? Berk's post says that Fox went bankrupt because the distributor went under. So is all that bogus? Financial under the table shenanigans? If the Berk Fox post can be trusted in this Down But Not Out section (never mind the other inaccuracies), can you shine some light on the what went on in the world that you've studied?
And did Bowles (Holyoke) have some connection with any of the creditors Berk names (Bulkley, Dunton & Co., Phelps Publishing, and Chemical Photo Engraving Inc.)? It would seem like he must have or why else did he end up with Blue Beetle?
I'm pretty sure that the statement that " Fox started a new line of comics and wrested Blue Beetle Comics back from Holyoke Publishing Co." is a gross oversimplification of a much more complex deal, but perhaps you can sort that out for us as well. We're trying to deal in the real world here, not in the maze of indicia.
Jim,
I always was in awe of the your efforts identifying so many great illustrators and comic artists.
If anyone is leery of what I say they can contact people like Steve Rowe or read what Gerry Jones says about my input to his MEN OF TOMORROW. I spent much time tracking comic industry personnel and their activities towards a book that has been delayed by my current work.
Most of what I am summarizing I can provide specifics from documents, conversations, etc. Feel free to contact me offlist.
Fox, who was indicted for securities fraud in the 30s, started in 1936 with an Astrology mag and branched out into other psychic stuff. His entry into comics was well-financed, but investors got leery after the DC lawsuit. Distributor Kable was dragged into the legal battle and dropped him, so a decision was made to start a dedicated Distribution op to carry the comics as well as Fox's girly mags and his ESQUIRE imitation. They were working on a soft drink distribution program when TSHTF. One reason was the partners owned a bottling plant - you can guess what their product line was.
Due to internal industry politics Fox wasn't supported by the regional wholesalers. This was the cause of the collapse of Fox publishing and their distribution network. Contrary to what many may think, the success of a comics line depended as much or more on wholesalers being behind a product as the content itself.
From what I have learned, Holyoke was Bowles using a Temerson front operation. Bowles Holyoke based newspaper had their own Sunday Comics press, engravers, paper sources. As a primary creditor he just assumed control of the Fox leftovers and it was decided to only continue with the BLUE BEETLE title.
Fox did petition to get back his assets in 1944. No one really cared much then as anything and everything was selling out. Fox was hooked up with the race horse set who had their reasons for dabbling in publishing. They did sleazy paperbacks and girlie gag mags too.
Before someone accuses me of making this stuff up, I'll quote a Al Feldstein remembrance from the ECCOMICS Yahoo list, Jan 9, 2003.
"I was warned by many people that Victor Fox was in big financial trouble, having invested in The San Juan Racetrack in Puerto Rico with (and this was only rumor!) the "Bent-Nose Guys"...that the project was in deep trouble...and that I should make sure that I was fully paid for each issue as I completed it and not get in too deep with Fox"
I'd say it's unlikely Fox ever had full control of any of his comic operations. The underbelly publishing end of things was endlessly interniecine and surreptitious.
When I dismiss attempts to quantify publishers and their lines it's because things just don't break down so simply. These fly-by-nite companies were controlled by gamblers, disbarred lawyers and numbers racketeers as a sideline. There was minimal formalism in terms of publishing infrastructure, management and staff. Interests were often bought and sold.
One has look at them as 'virtual' operations to fully grasp how the mechanics.
Mike
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I'm sure there were investors and shady back-end mechanics running the industry back then, but what is the harm in organizing books based on the "front company" that ran the day to day operations? Someone was creating the artwork and someone from this "front company" was interfacing with those people (be it in-house staff or a third-party studio) and someone from this "company" was dealing with getting advertising (again either in-house or a third party agency) weren't they? I can't imagine a "broken-nose" guy had any interest in running the show as a daily job.
I think what we are doing here is identifying and categorizing things based on the people running the day to day operations of these "front companies" and it in no way contradicts the reality that may exist behind the day-to-day operations. Even if the same group of investors/mobsters were the money men behind Temerson, Fox and Bowles, we can still organize things at the "front company" level where Temerson, Fox and Bowles are three separate companies. Sure, someday someone will publish something to explain the industry, but until then I say we continue with our "front company" research.
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Mike's explanations of the who, what and why behind the comics helps to fill in the gaps and make sense of what appears to be senseless meanderings from a comics only point of view. These men behind the comics are not primarily interested in the contents of the books, or in licensing or toys or moving the product into other media. They're interested in keeping presses rolling, trucks running and newsstands operating. To do that you need product- and that's all it is to them. If the product doesn't sell you get rid of the staff and get new people to make new product. Hence the sudden ups and downs and re-shufflings of the pre-war period.
Most of the contents in this period, unless you're DC, are provided by shops. The shops service multiple accounts which may or may not have common owners. And the shops often retain copyrights on the material they produce because the publishers didn't care. (This is what got Siegel in trouble- he didn't realize what a greedy bastard Liebowitz was. He thought he was a standard run-of-the-mill crook.) Following the shop employees around and linking them together may be good from the standpoint of creative history, but it's not economic history. Which is why lumping all these little companies together as if they would inevitably turn into a big company is clouding the picture.
There were a lot of companies that went under in the early forties, but we don't think of them like that- we think of them as "pre-cursors" or we string a series of unrelated failures together and call it a "master publisher".
Probably the funniest parts of the "Statements of ownership" published in comics and other magazines is the part we they say there are no creditors, bond holders or mortgage holders.
The idea that Temerson was the guy who packaged and put together magazines for various backers who had money makes sense. Sometimes he was the nominal owner, sometimes somebody else was. When Bowles took over Temerson's books and brought them directly under Holyoke, it makes sense that Temerson would go with them to supply the contents. And that Temerson's staff would also supply contents for Blue Beetle. When Temerson took his titles back and went off to World Color, Bowles needed a new packager to continue supplying Blue Beetle product. (Ferstadt?). That supplier continued to supply product for Sparkling Stars after Fox took Blue Beetle back. (Not sure who printed BB for Fox the second time). Bolwes's labor troubles certainly affected his comics production, although I'm not sure whether it was positive or negative. Depends on who was on strike I suppose.)
Fox went bankrupt, what, 5 times? Of course, that's a standard business practice still in use today. Doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't making money. Just that he didn't want to pay his bills.
Losing focus here. Better stop.
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If nobody minds me taking a quick step to try clearing the air for a sec'...
Mike, nobody's accusing you of anything. And nobody will without hearing it from me. That's not what we do around here.
However, just like in science, research is useless without anybody being able to validate it. You're asking the group here to disregard authentic documents as bad in favor of your unattributed paraphrasing.
We all agree that you're probably right (since what you say has the ring of truth), but without the details leading to your generalizations, you're passing this along in the same way as the folks who periodically "discover" perpetual motion machines.
If experiments can't be duplicated, they're useless to other researchers in the field. If historical details can't be traced or sourced, they're no less useless. Nobody here wants your information to go unused, which is (I think) where the pressure is coming from.
Is there a reason you're reluctant to share the details? I mean, if you're planning to publish all this, then I think everybody here'll understand and wait (im)patiently for the book. Likewise if you've been asked to keep the details a secret. All fine. But I hope you're not simply condemning the people here based on what some other group may have done in the past.
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Is there a reason you're reluctant to share the details? I mean, if you're planning to publish all this, then I think everybody here'll understand and wait (im)patiently for the book.
Wait, if there are facts to be shared, why should anyone have to wait & then spend money to get the information they need which can help them conduct their own line of research? "I know something but I won't share it until I get paid for it" seems incredibly greedy & selfish to me.
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Wait, if there are facts to be shared, why should anyone have to wait & then spend money to get the information they need which can help them conduct their own line of research? "I know something but I won't share it until I get paid for it" seems incredibly greedy & selfish to me.
If he's spent time and money into researching this topic for a book, why shouldn't he get paid for it? I don't think its greedy to try and recoup your expenses and generate some profit for the time and effort invested. I'm willing to wait for and purchase a book if one is coming.
But if he's going to come in here and say we've got it all wrong I do expect some level of proof. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the research we have is just "front company" level material. I'm more interested in the day-to-day operations of these companies anyways. I'm looking at Comic Book Marketplace #30 at the moment and I'm staring at an office picture of the staff of Et-Es-Go/Continental from 1944 showing Chris Shaare, Mark Bogardo, Frank Temerson, George Harrison, Jack Alderman, L.B. Cole, Jack Grogan, Charles Quinlan, Lucy Feller and Rae Herman. These are real people doing real work in a real office producing comics.
I'm willing to accept there are "back company" guys acting as investors and making the deals on where to buy the paper, dictating who would be the printer, and who would control the distribution, but I don't think these "broken nose" guys had any input into the editorial or art of what would appear on that paper that I'm collecting and reading.
I think the "front company" aspect is just as important, if not more so, than the "back company" guys running the shady part of the business.
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No, bchat,
it's good business sense and I can live with it. Mike's information didn't come free and the chance to write a book and be acknowledged as the author is certainly a valid reason. I'm with archiver_USA that we should know that's what going on. I'm with John C. here, too:
Just tell us and we'll put things on hold.
Bob is also correct is that there is history to be documented using the content of the comics, and it's just as valid as that which achieved using publishing addresses which is also just as valid as what Mike says was going to in the background behind the scenes. These are all subsets or pieces of a bigger history. None of it is bogus or wrong. It's just looking a bunch of blind men looking at a mighty big elephant...
Mike, you needn't be in awe of anything I ever did or might do. I'm just looking at my piece of the elephant. It's all any of us can really do. Thank you for the offer of "offlist" but at the moment that simply can't happen. I'm caught three ways to Sunday in real life - in a cast that keeps me for accessing my comics and data cards, preparing for a 6-week vacation in Paris (leaving Thursday if the Iceland volcano gives up) and several other ongoing projects with Hames Ware.
DCM is my window into the elephant room. If you can't post the details here, I'll simply have to pass for now. It would be extremely helpful if you could explain WHY you are reluctant to post specifics and sources here. As I said before, I think most of us here are receptive to your data, but we are searching for the source material that will allow us to view it and come to our own (perhaps different) conclusions based on what each of us know. In science, this is "peer review" and it's used to prove a theory. It is what differentiates the dilettantes from the professionals.
Here's just one point from your most recent post:
From what I have learned, Holyoke was Bowles using a Temerson front operation.
seems to be in direct contradiction of Based on accumulated circumstantial evidence, I am pretty certain Temerson, originally a crooked attorney from Alabama was put in charge of a consortium of the a couple of the above interests, primarily Bowles, operating as Holyoke. A somewhat suspicious operation according to those who interfaced with them, with fancy offices in Lower Manhattan.
Was Temerson put in charge OF a consortium or BY a consortium? Big difference to my ears.
And Feldstein was talking about post war Fox, not the 1944 Fox that was connected with Holyoke. And what mechanism did Fox use with the consortium to reacquire his books? So many questions...
(|:{>
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If he's spent time and money into researching this topic for a book, why shouldn't he get paid for it? I don't think its greedy to try and recoup your expenses and generate some profit for the time and effort invested. I'm willing to wait for and purchase a book if one is coming.
But if he's going to come in here and say we've got it all wrong I do expect some level of proof.
If he's writing a book that tells the history of a company or comics in general, yeah sure, he should get paid for that. If he's weaving an interesting story drawn from interviews or drawing conclusions from facts he's gathered & wants money for those thoughts, that's fine. What I have a problem with is people sitting on facts and not sharing them, then doing nothing more than saying "you're all wrong, I know the facts and I expect $24.95 from each of you to learn the truth!" I don't think it's right to hold-up somebody else's research (in this case, untangling the mess that is "Holyoke") because someone wants money for their "time and effort". People may disagree with me on this point, and that's fine too. I just feel that it's better to work together, especially when it comes to the history of Golden Age comics, and that starts with sharing the facts, not clinging to them like precious stones.
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Wait, if there are facts to be shared, why should anyone have to wait & then spend money to get the information they need which can help them conduct their own line of research? "I know something but I won't share it until I get paid for it" seems incredibly greedy & selfish to me.
Hey, freelance writing is researching and writing for profit. If that's a chunk of your income, it's very hard to part with information (in a public forum among people who will quickly and widely disseminate it) for free. Selfishness is what gets the bills paid, after all.
That's not to imply that this is the situation, which none of us knows but Mike. I'm just saying that, if it is, it's a valid reason for being vague. And I don't appreciate the implication that anybody here is holding any information for ransom.
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I've shared a lot of my accumulated data, testimony and insights online and with serious researchers like Steve Rowe, Bob Hughes, and Jerry Bails in the past.
I have worked in the publishing industry, more recently as a consultant, and a few times peripherally in the comics industry, I stopped collecting old comic books after the prices became absurd. Mucho good literature and fine art that can be bought for the same prices. But was always interested in the evolution of the medium and the business side fo things.
I'm not judgemental in any way but anyone who knows anything about 20th Century American periodical distribution in the aware of the increasing mob involvement to the level of near full control by the 80s.
As Bob rightly notes, after the Gold Rush Days of 1939-42 comics increasingly became fodder to keep Teamster trucks filled and moving product. Small companies like Hoyoke were structural expediencies to put something colourful onto those blank pages. These kind of operations don’t break down easily to the cataloguing and quantification that some feel compelled to impose on them.
I doubt Sherman Bowles would have ever been able to name any of the comic book titles he financed. It was a matter of so many tons of paper acquired, the conversation to marketable product, and the net profits.
I expect Temerson had minimal input into the actual editorial content as well. His function would have been more along the lines of making sure the printing and distributing arms were providing reliable numbers and that product was going to where it was needed in a timely fashion.
There is something called “cash-skimming” that is endemic to businesses like publishing-distribution that makes it attractive to racketeers. And my guess is Temerson knew a lot about that side of things.
But I’m rambling now.
Mike
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If he's writing a book that tells the history of a company or comics in general, yeah sure, he should get paid for that. If he's weaving an interesting story drawn from interviews or drawing conclusions from facts he's gathered & wants money for those thoughts, that's fine. What I have a problem with is people sitting on facts and not sharing them, then doing nothing more than saying "you're all wrong, I know the facts and I expect $24.95 from each of you to learn the truth!" I don't think it's right to hold-up somebody else's research (in this case, untangling the mess that is "Holyoke") because someone wants money for their "time and effort". People may disagree with me on this point, and that's fine too. I just feel that it's better to work together, especially when it comes to the history of Golden Age comics, and that starts with sharing the facts, not clinging to them like precious stones.
I think this attitude is a little extreme, bchat.
It's you putting words and intentions into Mike's actions for which you have no basis. You seem too often to impugn people's motives. We should back off and let Mike speak for himself rather than interpreting his actions in the worst possible light. It's not conducive to nor encouraging of sharing.
His reasons are his reasons and you and I have got to respect them. And he's not holding up anything. You and I are free to duplicate his efforts and his research. That's one of the beauties of facts - they remain out there to be found, again and again. Hames just turned up an article by Mark Carlson from 20+ years ago that documented MOST of what we have RE-discovered in this thread.
Perhaps it's best if we all calm down a bit. If you feel that your research is being held up, then you should set about recreating whatever Mike has managed to discover over the years. Just like I'm not obliged to share my comics for scanning, Mike is not obliged to share anything with any of us. He may do it, but it's his choice, not his responsibility. And I don't think your attitude is encouraging him to do so.
PEACE, Jim (|:{>
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And I don't appreciate the implication that anybody here is holding any information for ransom.
I didn't say specifically that anyone was, only that I would find it objectional IF anyone did withhold facts that would benefit other people's research. That's my opinion, I'm entitled to feel that way and I won't apologize for it.
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I think this attitude is a little extreme, bchat.
You read WAY too much into what I posted.
It's you putting words and intentions into Mike's actions for which you have no basis. You seem too often to impugn people's motives.
I did no such thing. I did not aim my comments towards Mike personally and I'm offended that this is even suggested.
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Reading an old K-a fanzine it was postulated that Nation-Wide and M.F. Enterprises might be the same company because they had the same address. What a tangled web comics are.
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I think this attitude is a little extreme, bchat.
You read WAY too much into what I posted.
It's you putting words and intentions into Mike's actions for which you have no basis. You seem too often to impugn people's motives.
I did no such thing. I did not aim my comments towards Mike personally and I'm offended that this is even suggested.
or perhaps our communication skills aren't quite as keen as we believe they are... It's not just what we say that matters, it's what people hear.
(|:{>
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Neutral corners and a deep breath, everybody. This is getting heated for no good reason. Assuming this traces back to something I said, I apologize and insist that we all drop it (even if I'm wrong). Anybody who can't should take their anger offline and you can feel free to bother me directly.
To those (like Mike, if I read his last post correctly) who would simply rather discuss other things than Holyoke, I believe everybody has permission to create threads. From the main page, if you go into the "Comic Related Discussion" area, there's a little tab at the top of the message list labeled "New Topic." The conversation at hand isn't "officially sanctioned," but rather something JVJ simply found worth pursuing. It's that easy.
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ditto (or amen).
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I seem to be in an especially cranky mood today. My apologies for any offense I may have given, bchat, or anyone else whom I grouched at. Lots of reasons, but no valid ones. I'm sorry.
Peace? Jim (|:{>
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Mike, you needn't be in awe of anything I ever did or might do. I'm just looking at my piece of the elephant. It's all any of us can really do. Thank you for the offer of "offlist" but at the moment that simply can't happen. I'm caught three ways to Sunday in real life - in a cast that keeps me for accessing my comics and data cards, preparing for a 6-week vacation in Paris (leaving Thursday if the Iceland volcano gives up) and several other ongoing projects with Hames Ware.
DCM is my window into the elephant room. If you can't post the details here, I'll simply have to pass for now. It would be extremely helpful if you could explain WHY you are reluctant to post specifics and sources here. As I said before, I think most of us here are receptive to your data, but we are searching for the source material that will allow us to view it and come to our own (perhaps different) conclusions based on what each of us know. In science, this is "peer review" and it's used to prove a theory. It is what differentiates the dilettantes from the professionals.
Here's just one point from your most recent post:
From what I have learned, Holyoke was Bowles using a Temerson front operation.
seems to be in direct contradiction of Based on accumulated circumstantial evidence, I am pretty certain Temerson, originally a crooked attorney from Alabama was put in charge of a consortium of the a couple of the above interests, primarily Bowles, operating as Holyoke. A somewhat suspicious operation according to those who interfaced with them, with fancy offices in Lower Manhattan.
Was Temerson put in charge OF a consortium or BY a consortium? Big difference to my ears.
Jim,
So much misconstrued all around here. Someone sent me a link to this forum because Bob Hughes inadvertently misquoted me on a point and I wanted to correct it. Bob is an otherwise superlative and diligent researcher.
I have worked in publishing most of my adult life, more in Britain, France, Italy, South America than Canada where I now live. There is no attempt on my part to be vague or withholding though I have had an unpleasant experience of feeding comic fans with information I wanted held onto which got blabbed online.
I have The World’s Smallest Comic Book Collection and have generally kept on the sidelines of the fandom. But I have made a few friends online with whom I share insights and info.
My perspective is more business development, sociological, politically bent than just the contents of the old comics and who did them. The history of the Democratic Party in the 20th Century, intertwined with the union movement, the rise of dedicated organized crime and gambling, and it’s interface with the print media, are subjects I pursue. The trail is longer and deeper than most would think.
The comic companies are a fascinating sub-component. The product line evolves into a sort of soft-porn for kids in the post-War period, and I find that aspect particularly fascinating. The infrastructure and personnel who became the progenitors of the American comic industry got their feet wet with nudie mags and racy pulps in the 20s and 30s. Their methodologies and strategizing with their comic lines was no accident.
I hope your health and whatever other issues find a happy resolution and that your travel plans work out. Paris is beautiful this time of year. I lived there in my 20s. Lots of comic stores and expertise to be found. If you miraculously run into pioneer comic historian Pierre Couperie gently remind him he owes me a reciprocal ‘favour’ for a pile of 19th Century comic sheets I laid on him 25 years ago.
Mike Feldman
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Thanks, Mike,
we'll gladly accept however much you might like to share with us.
The infrastructure and personnel who became the progenitors of the American comic industry got their feet wet with nudie mags and racy pulps in the 20s and 30s.
While this is quite likely to be so, I don't believe it is applicable to the men and women in the "trenches" who were busy inventing a new medium and playing with the creative end of the business. It's the intersection of your studies and ours that cries out to be illuminated.
Paris is my second home. I am anxious to return, but Icelandic volcanoes may have other plans. We'll see. Seems that Couperie died the Jan. Never met him.
I've sent a PM.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Sadly, it seems that this thread has reached the end of the spool. I hope it wasn't something I said. I'd really like to know more of how the machinations of the underworld affected the guys at the typewriters and drawing boards. Neither group worked in a vacuum and it would be beneficial to our understanding of the history to try to synchronize the sequence of occurrences in both worlds.
....
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I, too, would love to see this go further. At some point I will be working on improving the publisher data fields at the GCD and would like to make it possible to capture the most useful information on publishers and on what was going on behind the scenes. The stuff that's printed in the comics is easy to figure out. The behind-the-scenes stuff, however, is not something I understand at all well enough to design database fields to capture it.
We tentatively plan ways to record "associations" of various sorts so that we can show things more realistically than just dumping some corporate names in a bucket and labeling the bucket with something like "Holyoke" or "Temerson". But it's not clear to me what sort of associations are really worth recording and how.
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Well, that's another fine myth... ;-)
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Vol. 1 No. 6 August, 1941
GREEN HORNET COMICS is published monthly by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc., at Meriden, Conn. Entered as second
class matter at the Post Office at Meriden, Conn. Entire contents copyright 1941 by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc. for Green
Hornet, Inc. Editorial office 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City. Single copies 10 cents, yearly subscription $1.00 in U.S.A.
Printed in the U.S.A. For advertising rates address Helnit Publishing Co., Inc., 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.
:-)
So there you have some level of explanation for the confusion over "Helnit Publishing Co., Inc." vs "Green Hornet, Inc."
Back cover is an ad for "The Green Hornet", "The Cat-Man Comics" and ("NEW!!!") Captain Fearless Comics (oddly sans quotes).
Also in this shipment, Power Comics #4 and Contact Comics #2, neither of which I've even pulled out of mylar yet.
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Merci, fc.
Info is greatly appreciated.
Peace, Jim (|:{>