Frazetta the man and his Legacy.

[Drusilla lives!]

I hope this isn't too soon after his passing to discuss, I don't want to come off as being disrespectful in any way, nor do I want to start any controversies, but...

I was looking through that book "Telling Stories: The Comic Art of Frank Frazetta" the other day, and then I read some of those online articles and bios... btw, once again, nice work JVJ, you did as good a job as Ed Mason IMO and I didn't even have to buy anything  

... but getting back to the Mason book... it's not often said (perhaps it's never been said... it is just my opinion after all), but I get the feeling that Frank's comic career was held back by his desire to control his work (among other things), and that some aspects of his comic work were a reflection of this.  Perhaps it's just me.  But in light of learning of the careers of other immensely talented artists and their travails in the industry of that day, I can't help think that Frazetta was relegated to working mostly for companies like M.E. and not for DC (and for EC for that matter) due in part to his insistence on not handing over his ownership rights to his artwork.  I mean, even at EC, with Gaines... who was always above board and very pro-artist... one still had to hand over one's work.  I can't see how Frank's desire to keep his work would have been an asset to furthering his career in such a working culture.  

Basically (IMO), he knew he was good... and others did too... but he just didn't want to "play ball" with them.  That's why I feel it's not appropriate to compare him with other artists in the comic book field who were superb masters at the art of sequential narrative, which some may argue he was not (as I remember someone in another forum, on another website, once pointing out).  He couldn't in my opinion, partly due to this desire to hold on to his art.

Oh, and I know that's not to excuse some of his own choices (some of his Thun'da material comes to mind here)... but I can't help thinking that this also limited him to working with people that allowed such material to be produced.  In other words, he didn't work in a vacuum, they allowed him to illustrate such things because it sold, and I suppose it sold well... let's face it... America wasn't as attuned to certain prejudices as they are today.  And I guess neither was he, being a product of that culture as much as a reflection of it.

What are your opinions?  Do you think his strong desire to control his work was a hinderance to his comics career?... And if so, do you think he would have ranked higher in the eye of some people when it comes to the art of sequential narrative?

Btw, if some of you out there don't want to chime in I'll understand.

[JonTheScanner]

I suspect Frazetta didn't work much for DC because he didn't work fast enough to handle a regular feature.  I don't really know how fast he worked, but given the detail he put into his work, I suspect he didn't work very fast and he generally penciled and inked his work as I recall which would only make things slower. 

He worked for a long time for Al Capp and he certainly never controlled his Li'l Abner work (probably the single biggest portion of his comic work) at all.

[Drusilla lives!]

I suspect Frazetta didn't work much for DC because he didn't work fast enough to handle a regular feature.  I don't really know how fast he worked, but given the detail he put into his work, I suspect he didn't work very fast and he generally penciled and inked his work as I recall which would only make things slower. 

He worked for a long time for Al Capp and he certainly never controlled his Li'l Abner work (probably the single biggest portion of his comic work) at all.

Both valid points Jon.  But regarding DC, I'm not sure how much of Frazetta's detailed styling would have been needed for working on something like Batman, he might have amended his style for the material at hand... I think I recall it being mentioned somewhere that he did in fact do so for his Li'l Abner strip work.

And I'm glad you brought up the Abner strip... he is considered as doing a wonderful job of it... but I think as JVJ mentioned somewhere, there's a different narrative flow to strip work than to comic book work.  Which still might not make his adroit handling of it proof enough for some that he was equally capable of the other (btw, I think he was judging from some of his romance stories).   

[narfstar]

Well his L. Lazybones knock off of Little Abner looked great

[JVJ (RIP)]

Thanks, DL,
IMO Frazetta didn't work much for DC because DC probably gave him deadlines and he hated deadlines. I've always been amazed at the long run he did at ME on White Indian - actually, other than his L'il Abner stretch, the longest continual stint on a single strip in his career. I can't explain it other than he must have loved doing it and probably had a lot of freedom. Maybe we should ask Nick Meglin, the last Fleagle standing, if he knew if FF wrote the strip, too.

ME probably was flexible with deadlines, meaning that if FF missed an issue of Tim Holt they wouldn't have cared all that much, whereas DC probably wanted a commitment in writing. With no contract, he might have been willing to be consistent at ME, whereas he would have rebelled mightily against a similar required schedule at someplace like DC.

I'm not certain that anywhere he worked gave him any special "control" over his art or his originals. As he stated often in biographies and interviews, he primarily wanted to go out and play baseball, and he'd throw a strip together at the last minute. I love your comment about "play(ing) ball with them."

Perhaps it was the original artwork, but other than  Gaines (and perhaps DC - so you might have a point there), I don't think any publisher was particularly INTERESTED in retaining his artwork. I believe that it was entirely a matter of an imposed schedule - which he totally rejected unless he imposed it himself. I don't think he ever took comics seriously as a career. He just wanted to have fun and comics were a way to do finance that without much effort. A "career" never seemed all that high, IMHO, on his radar.

It wasn't until he got married that the notion of a steady job and good paycheck made him forego comics for the Capp studio gig.

Just an opinion.

My 2¢

(|:{>

[John C]

I don't think any publisher was particularly INTERESTED in retaining his artwork.

I'm not disagreeing, since you know the field and the people far better than I do, but that doesn't quite ring true to me.  Sure, a publisher probably wouldn't care about having "original Frazetta art" on file, but they also would be highly DISinterested in having to handle the art specially and negotiate over who gets reprint rights.

[JonTheScanner]

They seldom (never?) used the original art for reprints.  They had stats or film for that.  They may not have wanted to bother to return the art though.  Ownership of the original art no more gives the right to reprint than does ownership of a copy of the comic.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I'm not disagreeing, since you know the field and the people far better than I do, but that doesn't quite ring true to me.  Sure, a publisher probably wouldn't care about having "original Frazetta art" on file, but they also would be highly DISinterested in having to handle the art specially and negotiate over who gets reprint rights.

I don't THINK, DL,
(and I stress that this is simply an opinion based on observation, not on any inside information) that ANY reprint rights were ever "negotiated" in those days. Publishers felt (and acted accordingly) that they could do whatever they wanted with the material. FF work was reprinted at DC (All-Star Western #99 immediately comes to mind) in 1958 without a hint of Frazetta complaint - that anyone in fandom heard of, anyway.

I agree with you that he was probably highly regarded as an artist by those he worked for (and with), but what is it that prompts you think that he insisted that his work be handled differently and that he negotiated reprint rights at at time when no one else seems to have done so? While this is entirely true in the post-Capp era, I'm unaware of his insisting on such things prior to 1955.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[Drusilla lives!]

I don't think any publisher was particularly INTERESTED in retaining his artwork.

I'm not disagreeing, since you know the field and the people far better than I do, but that doesn't quite ring true to me.  Sure, a publisher probably wouldn't care about having "original Frazetta art" on file, but they also would be highly DISinterested in having to handle the art specially and negotiate over who gets reprint rights.

That's my "gut" feeling on the matter as well John.  It's true that most publishers weren't interested in retaining his or anyone else's artwork at the time... in fact, the comics literature is littered with accounts from various GA artists of stacks of artwork being simply shredded and/or thrown away (or simply forgotten in some store room for decades)... but regardless, they did initially keep it to do as they pleased with it.  And again, I can't see how an artist coming into one of the shops, or the office of a major (particularly a young "freelancer") and asking for his art back would work in his or her favor... for (again IMO) it would only lead to the next natural question as to why?  And thinking for a minute as a business man would (not as a lover of art or comic books... but simply as a business man in a cut throat, highly competitive business) I'd assume that the natural answer to this would be money.  That is, there must be some angle with this guy that he wants something back that few others do... he's asking questions... and of course, if this abnormality to the regular way of doing business (even if it wouldn't end in a wrangle) rubbed someone the wrong way, it couldn't be good for a freelancer in that environment.  And IMO, it wouldn't take much for him to rub people the wrong way in that business culture.

[Drusilla lives!]

I don't THINK, DL,
(and I stress that this is simply an opinion based on observation, not on any inside information) that ANY reprint rights were ever "negotiated" in those days. Publishers felt (and acted accordingly) that they could do whatever they wanted with the material. FF work was reprinted at DC (All-Star Western #99 immediately comes to mind) in 1958 without a hint of Frazetta complaint - that anyone in fandom heard of, anyway.

I agree with you that he was probably highly regarded as an artist by those he worked for (and with), but what is it that prompts you think that he insisted that his work be handled differently and that he negotiated reprint rights at at time when no one else seems to have done so? While this is entirely true in the post-Capp era, I'm unaware of his insisting on such things prior to 1955.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

And yet he had to "negotiate" with Gaines.  Somehow I don't get the impression that he (Gaines) was a "soft touch" when it came to such matters, although perhaps one of the reasons for Frank going to him with the work (besides his prior acquaintance with him through Williamson, and many other reasons not the least of which would be the subject matter of the work itself) is precisely because he was (compared to the other publishers).  And that negotiation (if one can consider it as such) apparently wasn't even over future reprint rights, if I recall... beyond the initial print run anyway.  But you're right JVJ, we can never know really with regard to his involvement with other publishers and art directors... there is no real concrete record on the matter with regard to FF or anyone else, so this is pure speculation.

And speaking of that famous cover to WSF #29... the fact that he did go to Gaines (EC) with it after creating it for Eastern couldn't bode well for his rep. either (not with regard to Gaines... he was many things to many people, but I don't think he was ever a "blackballer," but I can't say the same for others in the industry back then, not that I or anyone else could who wasn't there).

[Drusilla lives!]

... IMO Frazetta didn't work much for DC because DC probably gave him deadlines and he hated deadlines. I've always been amazed at the long run he did at ME on White Indian - actually, other than his L'il Abner stretch, the longest continual stint on a single strip in his career. I can't explain it other than he must have loved doing it and probably had a lot of freedom. Maybe we should ask Nick Meglin, the last Fleagle standing, if he knew if FF wrote the strip, too. ...

You bring up a good example JVJ, to support my earlier "Batman" statement.  From what I've seen of his White Indian work (and I'll admit up front that I haven't seen much of it) it looks as though he did "water down" his detailed style on some of it... which only leads me to believe that he would have been quite capable of penciling something like Batman for DC... whether he really would want to is another question... IMO it wasn't exactly in tune with his other sensibilities.  Although I've read he always wanted to be a cartoonist, the material in most of DC's 50s and 60s superhero books were (IMO) rather goofy and childish... I suppose perfectly suited for its intended audience at the time... but somehow I doubt it would have appealed to Frazetta.  

Don't get me wrong, I've grown to appreciate the material, and it's an enjoyable and refreshing change of pace once in awhile to sit down and read some of it... but as with anything, I wouldn't want to do so day in and day out.  Personally I just can't see the artist who would later go on to create the definitive rendering of Conan (and in a sense in doing so, foreshadowing the coming of the anti-hero) enjoying that kind of work.  So in this last regard (to his innate sensibilities as a creative individualist... which ultimately I  think was reflected in his outward carefree ambivalence with regard to his career) I do agree with you.

[John C]

They seldom (never?) used the original art for reprints.  They had stats or film for that.  They may not have wanted to bother to return the art though.  Ownership of the original art no more gives the right to reprint than does ownership of a copy of the comic.

I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  What I did mean to imply was that ownership of the original art (and the film and the plates) gives one de facto rights to render reprint rights mostly moot by depriving those with reprint rights of access.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I agree, DL, I'd be hesitant to describe what was going on back then as "negotiation".
I think that one of the conditions of working for Gaines was that he kept the artwork. If FF said no, I keep it, then it was simply a matter of one or the other weighing the money against the art. Either Gaines valued having a Frazetta story more than his "rule" or Frazetta valued the money for the job or the "prestige" or working for EC more than his art. One or the other happened, but it was probably more a battle of wills than a negotiation.

Gaines was pretty dogmatic, and he was pretty canny keeping all that art, but he also respected those artists and wanted the best for his company. Since Frazetta could have gotten work just about anywhere, perhaps the "rule" about originals turned out to be more flexible, or maybe Frank really needed some money that month.

I doubt that Frazetta's rep suffered at all from the reworking of the Famous Funnies cover for WSF #29. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Gaines knew about it and didn't care. After all, this was 1955 and Gaines was fighting for the life of his company. The etymology of one cover was probably not even in his top ten worries.

And, again, I don't think it was a matter of "watering down" the White Indian work so much as spending more effort on other jobs. The romance stories are some of his best work, IMHO, and Eastern didn't pay top dollar, so it HAD to be that the jobs were of more interest to him. Given the interest, he always did his best work. The "contract" or the "rights" or the page rate or anything else appears to have been either secondary or simply unimportant.

My reading of Frazetta is that he ALWAYS took the easy way out. Yes, he wanted to be a comic book artist, but he also wanted to be a baseball player. What I think he wanted was a good paying job that was easy and left him time to goof off. That "definitive" Conan painting was a rush job that he reworked considerably after it was printed. The same is true of many of his iconic paintings for Warren covers - many of which he turned in with the oil paints still wet. He could ALWAYS do better (compare the original Egyptian Queen and Cat Girl covers to their later versions), but the job had to appeal to him. For some reason, the Eastern romance stories did. White Indian must had some appeal, too, just because he stuck to it for so long. He seems to have lost interest in most jobs very quickly - how many romance stories did he do? How many SF stories? Crime stories? etc.

He was a complex genius, but like many geniuses, he was seldom challenged by anyone other than himself. I don't believe that Gaines did more than offer him a choice. And I think that Frazetta simply offered him one back. I suppose that could be called negotiation.

As for asking for original art back, Williamson always got his back just by asking at Toby and Atlas. Kinstler told me that Avon never had any qualms about him asking for his inside covers back. I think almost every publisher of comics treated original art as a means to an end. Most often that "end" was a printed comic book and after that they had zero interest. Gaines wanted it because he valued it. DC wanted it because they viewed giving it back as a weakness or a concession. Most other companies simply didn't give a damn one way or the other. I think Harvey kept the art, too, but they are the only other one that I've heard of - not that I've done a detailed study of the matter.

It's 1 AM here in Paris and I'm getting off of my soapbox. I just came back from a stimulating dinner with Sylvain Despretz and Jean Claude Mezieres and I am trying to wind down. Tossing Frank Frazetta into the evening's mix is the perfect nightcap.

Peace, Jim (|:{>

Again, all of the above is viewpoint and opinion.

[Drusilla lives!]

... And, again, I don't think it was a matter of "watering down" the White Indian work so much as spending more effort on other jobs. The romance stories are some of his best work, IMHO, and Eastern didn't pay top dollar, so it HAD to be that the jobs were of more interest to him. Given the interest, he always did his best work. The "contract" or the "rights" or the page rate or anything else appears to have been either secondary or simply unimportant. ...

I agree, and that's why I don't think he would have liked working on something like (mid 1950s) Batman or Superman, although you never know, artists do work on things just for the money.  

I should add that although some of that White Indian stuff looks less detailed to me, it doesn't suffer at all from being so. In fact, IMO it's being very "dynamic and loose" looking really helps to free up the flow of the narrative... in other words, it fits the tone of the action-adventure story lines featured in that comic very well.

... As for asking for original art back, Williamson always got his back just by asking at Toby and Atlas. Kinstler told me that Avon never had any qualms about him asking for his inside covers back. I think almost every publisher of comics treated original art as a means to an end. Most often that "end" was a printed comic book and after that they had zero interest. Gaines wanted it because he valued it. DC wanted it because they viewed giving it back as a weakness or a concession. Most other companies simply didn't give a damn one way or the other. I think Harvey kept the art, too, but they are the only other one that I've heard of - not that I've done a detailed study of the matter. ...

Now YOU sound like you're reading my mind JVJ!    

I was thinking of asking you just such a question... that is, did any of the artists you've ran into over the years mention anything regarding what it was like when trying to get back artwork and such... thanks for anticipating it.  

All that can be said I guess is that each "house" had it's own set of rules and there was no collusion in the industry on such matters.  

It's 1 AM here in Paris and I'm getting off of my soapbox. I just came back from a stimulating dinner with Sylvain Despretz and Jean Claude Mezieres and I am trying to wind down. Tossing Frank Frazetta into the evening's mix is the perfect nightcap.

Bonsoir.  Jusqu'à ce que nous parler à nouveau. 

[NobbyNobbs]

I am a bit unsure about this, but seem to remember Will Eisner talking about how the artists that wanted the original art back got it from the Eisner-Iger shop, in one of his "Shop Talks" in Kitchen Sinks Spirit Magazine.