Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: John C on June 07, 2012, 04:10:31 PM
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Split this off into it's own general 'what's wrong with comics today?' catch-all topic.
Go crazy gang! :)
If only there were some say to do this with comics ...
Write a barely-passable story that just gets the reader through the book to see all the advertising? Isn't that what they do now?
I guess they could take a tip from the newspapers and hide the panels out of order, so that you need to bounce back and forth through the book, wearing you down until you buy stuff just to stop it. Or throw yourself off a building.
Actually, the reason you're seeing more ads and shorter content pages is that the model's failing for the web, just like it's been failing for paper media.
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Lessee here; should I pay 3.99 for Earth 2 #2, or download it free from any one of a couple dozen torrent sites?
With virtually no risk of ever getting caught.
Hmmm, Earth 2 #1 was one of lamest comics I've read in quite a while. I guess I'll just blow another $4.00 because I'm such a good citizen.
I just hope they include some cool ads.
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I guess they could take a tip from the newspapers and hide the panels out of order, so that you need to bounce back and forth through the book, wearing you down until you buy stuff just to stop it. Or throw yourself off a building.
Johh!! Dagnabbit, you gotta stop saying these things out loud, someone is gonna see it and start doing it sure as Donald is a Duck!
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Lessee here; should I pay 3.99 for Earth 2 #2, or download it free from any one of a couple dozen torrent sites?
With virtually no risk of ever getting caught.
For most people, I don't think getting caught is the issue. I think most adults understand that you pay to make sure the creators can produce the next issue, rather than to avoid a fictional FBI investigation.
As I hinted before, though, that proposition only works when you provide value that matches the price. If the first issue stinks, the company can't expect anybody to bother supporting it for the second. If it's overrun with advertising, same.
I guess they could take a tip from the newspapers and hide the panels out of order, so that you need to bounce back and forth through the book, wearing you down until you buy stuff just to stop it.
Johh!! Dagnabbit, you gotta stop saying these things out loud, someone is gonna see it and start doing it sure as Donald is a Duck!
I don't know. I've read some books over the years where that might have been a small improvement. A lot of the team books in the '90s might have even tried this, for all I could figure...
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Mr. C,
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my cynicism. Movies, music, comics, TV, apps, games, books, and whatever else can be digitized are downloaded illegally. It's the culture. As such, the impact to creators, musicians, writers is not the issue I'm concerned with (Although I understand that the creators in question would see that differently). There are several very deep factors to be considered, in my mind, before I can even get to the considerations of creators. The overall impact that downloading has on our culture has me very concerned first and foremost.
For example, We've chatted about the concept of price versus value. We could dig deep into this concept that would keep us busy for hours. For example, I could put forth the notion that a comic is not worth over $1.00 based on countless other ways you can spend money on entertainment. Or we could look at the convenience factor. Or the gender factor. There's so much.
I get this collision of factors rolling around in my head, and I tend to simplify my frustration with a trite comment. It's one of my failings.
Everyone here seems to have a slightly different spin on what the main problem is with comics. Is it the industry? The medium? The creators? It frustrates me to see an artform like comics suffer and wither. But that's yet another topic.
--D
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Hi D,
It's now it's own topic. Please feel free to expand on your thoughts about what has been happening in the comics industry to drive it to the point of near extinction.
My own thoughts are the advent of prices over $1 and direct market only. Toss in Diamond and the 90s multi-covered dreck. All together I stopped going by 1993.
-Yoc
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Cool,
It's really easy for most of the 310 million Americans to dismiss comic books because comics have made themselves dismissible. I got into the comics "industry" in 1978 because I believed that there was incredible potential in the artform to educate, entertain, and enlighten. When I opened my first store it was because I loved the medium and I thought I might be able to carry products that would elevate people's awareness over and above X-Men or Superman as the ultimate end product. Over the years I sought out and stocked the best stuff I could find along with the obligatory new and back issues expected in a store of that type. I was proud to carry Hampson's Dan Dare, Barks' ducks, Tintin, Squa Tront, The Smithsonian collections,.......the list is huge. But also, my customers and I would have conversations about Tony Stark's alcoholism and Captain Marvel's cancer. There were times when I thought the medium was growing into an artform that could carry ideas and opinions better than any other.
Unfortunately, the "investment" or money angle of the business was just too attractive to too many people. As the 80's progressed, it seemed that there was a willingness for a few to buy and digest really great material (I keep thinking about The Studio, a collection of art from Wrightson, Jones, Kaluta, and Smith along with Nemo and Krazy Kat reprint collections). I also remember this guy who would show up every couple of days and buy 5 to 10 copies of Perez's Teen Titans #1 because they were going to "worth a fortune." Now its truly unfortunate, but the Titans guy, and the dozens of others like him, kept the doors open a lot better than the occasional customer who would pick up a copy of The Studio and get overwhelmed by its beauty.
You could have a baseball card store every few blocks, but comic stores pulled from a much greater area. Obviously, densely populated areas could build a better base, but usually at a much higher per-square-foot cost. We can talk about the owners of comic shops and their financial solvency and business acumen later. It would be enlightening.
Jumping forward to today, we seem to be getting pretty uninspired writing, and over-rendered art from the big two. Add to that a relentless marketing to a aging fanboy base and you get nothing of any sustainable quality. This is fixable, but the composition, manufacture, and marketing of this medium needs a radical shift. Why are comics so much more acceptable in Asian and European countries? Can the success of the European market be adapted and implemented in America? Certainly! Don't wait around for DC or Marvel to do that, though. Their business model is 180 degrees different from approaching comics as a sustainable artform. I've been thinking lately that with the runaway investment thing just about dead, now might not be a bad time to try to reposition the medium to a more highbrow perception.
One of the highlights of being a teacher was an attempt at trying to explain story pacing to a bunch of sophomores. I took a copy of Krigstein's Master Race and produced a Power Point of each individual panel. We then "read" the story off screen, commenting on events and artwork as we went along. It worked. And broken down that way, the students never saw the story's end coming.
There's so much unrealized potential in this artform! Now I know most of us are here for the nostalgia and innocence of Golden Age comics, but everyone also knows it's only part of a much larger picture. Man, I used to get so passionate about comics and what they could do......
--David
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Thanks David, and interesting read from the POV of the store owner there.
I think another aspect of the decline might have been the advent of video games. I grew up with Space Invaders and Pac Man and I recall seeing guys that used to buy comics spending their dollars (many of them) at the arcade instead of on the books. I never got hooked on any games until I got an Intellivsion (remember those?) and much later a PC computer.
They say TV had a lot to do with killing the golden age (yes, Wirtham, etc did as well but I think TV did more damage), sales dropped and other than a couple of noted single issues, their numbers have never sold as well since. Kids have got a ton of more options for their time and money and now if you don't know you want a comic and hunt one down you aren't likely to start are you? And today's books at $3-4 for just 20 or so pages... 15min reading and you are done. That hardly sounds like a good deal. Heck, even a graphic novel you can read in under an hour and that's 4-6 issues!
So we've got no new readers, an industry that panders to those still reading now in their 40s or close to it, shops that are hard to find and from all reports not very appealing to women and kids... thank goodness for the big box book stores for selling graphic novels which I've heard are selling better than the comics themselves. (I'm a cheap S.O.B. so I use the library for me GN reading. Members here have recommended some fun stuff for me.)
The future? Who knows? On the surface digital sales seems the answer but what about all those poor buggers out there that have comic shops? Do you gut them totally selling a scan for a dollar? I agree there has got to be a better way of getting scans out there to those that would never set foot in a shop. The iPad and scans seem a natural but if both Marvel and DC will only sell through Comixology and Flash based product - well that's just stupid. I think most readers want to 'own' something not rent it. Let us download it for reading where and when we want. That's the beauty of DCM anyways. How you read is your choice.
I sure hope comics don't die off. The few things I have read lately I've quite liked. Fables, The Boys, Mice Templar, I'd hate to see them die off. But someone has got to re-invent the wheel or this just can't live beyond the current generation or so.
-Yoc
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I think the problem is there isn't one. One. There are many, a lot of which are in this thread and other sites.
I think digital is one step in the right direction. The other would seem to be a return to "all ages" stories, which the Big Two superhero companies don't seem interested in. Price point is huge.
And I keep hearing about kids that love, say, the Mighty Avengers cartoon, or the Spider-Man movie, or the character of Batman, but have no interests in comics. Part of it is attention span. Part of it has to be - their first exposure is the movie or cartoon - to them, unlike us, the comics version isn't the "real" character, the movie version is. If we had all these cool shows and movies growing up, would we have bothered with the book?
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Good points Roy.
I remember living for Saturday mornings and 'Thundarr' (while never having heard of Kirby!).
I grew up loving animation like Warner Brother cartoons but I also had an early exposure to Archie Digests and the Dell Ducks books. I wasn't hooked though until years later on my first Marvel. But I still insist it was a Lot easier to be hooked when a comic was only 25 cents. I can't see many parents willing to pay the prices of today and again, you have to hunt for a shop unless you happen to live near one.
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The only two modern comics which catch my attention are Action Comics current run and All Star Western. I love Superman and Jonah Hex as portrayed in these book.s
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Sorry, I wasn't clear in my cynicism. Movies, music, comics, TV, apps, games, books, and whatever else can be digitized are downloaded illegally. It's the culture. As such, the impact to creators, musicians, writers is not the issue I'm concerned with (Although I understand that the creators in question would see that differently). There are several very deep factors to be considered, in my mind, before I can even get to the considerations of creators. The overall impact that downloading has on our culture has me very concerned first and foremost.
For what it's worth, I don't think there's a moral issue, if that's the direction you're taking. I think it's a reaction to how companies treat their customers, rather than how the potential customers view buying things.
What I mean is that the top advantage to piracy isn't that it's free. For most people I've talked to, convenience hits the top of the list--you don't need special software or a trackable account with another password to remember. Next seems to be DRM and ownership, so a comic (for example) can be read on any device whenever you want, even if the company goes out of business.
It's a shame, but the pirates treat you far better than legitimate vendors. It reminds me of computers in the '80s, where you could play the game that made you refer to the manual every ten minutes to type in a key phrase, or you could get the cracked copy that made your life easier. Free is just a bonus, after that.
Past that point, there's sampling, in that you might buy the comic (or album or whatever), but digital and legally means buying sight unseen, unlike a storefront where you can page through, whereas you can pirate it and figure out if it's worth paying. The value proposition seems to come after that, then price itself.
There are exceptions to that, of course, but anecdotally, I don't see a huge, persistent problem. OK, actually, I do, but I'll talk about that in a minute.
Everyone here seems to have a slightly different spin on what the main problem is with comics. Is it the industry? The medium? The creators? It frustrates me to see an artform like comics suffer and wither. But that's yet another topic.
It's all of them, probably.
And worse, I see it in a lot of industries, not just comics. When you look at electric cars, they tell you that it's not too expensive and you shouldn't be taking long trips. When you buy a computer, they tell you about "the post-PC era," so they can charge you double for a tablet and sign you up for a cloud subscription.
I suspect it's going to get worse as our household tools get better. When DC's biggest competitor is not so much Marvel as it is some kid with a cool story idea, how are they going to manage?
Look at what that's done to software, after all. I've been seeing a lot of people abandon Microsoft Office for LibreOffice (or OpenOffice), and a shockingly high (smaller) number--including myself, which I never thought would happen--moving to Linux. Stuff that people, rather than companies, made. It could be that really good comics are only an "inciting incident" away--something that makes it easy for people to get their story ideas out, and possibly a framework that allows others to improve it after it's been released.
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Great thoughts. I do think a dollar price point for digital makes sense. It has worked for music. Everyone wants to get rich but how rich. The previous billion dollar company profits are now able to go directly to several individuals pedaling their own products. If you create something good enough that enough people want it you can still get rich. Just look at the creators of angry birds. The big companies are hurting while the creators can survive and thrive. With virtually no cost, thirty thousand one dollar sales can make you very comfortable. Follow that up with marketing, again like angry birds, and you can get rich. When the only cost is your time you can afford to take chances and hope to hit it big. Without printing cost fewer need to be sold to be profitable. BTW: Comixology has LCS stores. My LCS has a Comixology store now. I will probably be going all digital since I know that they will get a share. There are a few companies still not represented on Comixology but Diamond does not do a good job of getting them to my LCS anyway.
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Great stuff here
My wife and I did some math at dinner. When I started working, minimum wage was 1.60. I was hired at 1.70. At 20 hours per week, I'd gross 34.00 and clear 27.00. Comics were 20 cents. Ten comics =2.00, 7.4% of my pay. At 7.25 per hour today, 20 hours grosses 140.00 and clears maybe 116.00. 10 comics = 40.00 for 34.4% of ones pay.
Let me try to remember what I bought: Superman, the Denny O'Neill sand creature stories. Spiderman right around #100. Morbius. FF at about #110 leading up to Hulk vs. Thing. Forever People, New Gods. You'll remember DC had just come off the 52-page 25 cent issues with all those delicious Golden Age reprints. Tons more. You get the idea.
How does that era's mainstream quality stack up to today? Personally, I think it blows today's big two selections away. In context, of course.
I remember right about then, Alan Light (Dynapubs, owned the original Buyer's Guide to Comic Fandom, or the current CBG if it still exists.). Alan republished black and white versions of about two dozen killer Golden Age books with color covers and b&w interiors. Three bucks each. Also, he published a weekly newspaper reprint tabloid called Vintage Funnies, reproducing some of the best strips of the 20th century chronologically. The Menomonee Falls Gazette was running doing strips reprints, and Van Hise was cranking out Rocket's Blast Comic Collector. Plenty of stuff being printed encouraging the industry to consider taking off the training pants and growing up. Ah, but I digress.
OK, I'm on board for digital for a buck. Who do we gotta talk to, if you know what I mean.
-Dave
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I think if you go to wowio or drivethru or graphicly you will find many choices for a buck each.
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An interesting blog entry on sales numbers for the 'New 52' sales for DC. Not so new after all.
http://comiksdebris.blogspot.ca/2012/06/new-52-and-dc-comics-month-to-month.html
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An interesting blog entry on sales numbers for the 'New 52' sales for DC. Not so new after all.
That's pretty much what I'd expect after the issues I read at the beginning. In my eyes, they made the enormous mistake of making a fresh break...except all of this stuff, and a bunch of history that's probably like what we had before, but eh, we don't actually know. Batgirl was a prime example, where the premise was that Barbara Gordon's entire history came over intact, and for some secret "miraculous" reason, her legs are healed and she's a costumed hero again. So, the fresh start still requires you to understand thirty years of history, yet forget everybody else's history.
I think another aspect of the decline might have been the advent of video games.
Funny thing, gamers are starting to gripe about some very unfamiliar problems: The companies are creating shorter games for more money, then trying to sell add-ons that don't improve the game, the stories are more shallow, and they rely more on high-end graphics than anything else in the experience.
Meanwhile, the game companies are apparently trying to convince the console manufacturers to making gaming a "remote" activity, where you don't actually have the files on your computer.
Hmmm...
Great thoughts. I do think a dollar price point for digital makes sense. It has worked for music.
As a guide, it's probably a good start, yeah. On the other hand, the exact pricing may depend on the sales pitch.
Speaking for my own spending habits, I'm very unlikely to buy music or movies at a retail price IF it's a corporate project. If it's on clearance, sure, I'm there. But my tastes (for better or worse) aren't mainstream.
On the other hand, I surprise myself how much I'm willing to pay for media when it's just some plain old people telling a story. For example, I donated to support the Pioneer One web-series (highly recommended and free) back when it started and bought a few copies of the season DVD as soon as they went on sale. Kickstarter has also shown me that I'll drop a surprising amount of money on a reasonable idea, and even more if I get a good feeling from the creator.
So, for "payment," a dollar is probably a fair limit. If you can convince me it's "patronage," or if the product is extremely novel, a dollar might be very low.
Everyone wants to get rich but how rich. The previous billion dollar company profits are now able to go directly to several individuals pedaling their own products. If you create something good enough that enough people want it you can still get rich.
And that's another problem with the existing economic climate. It's not enough to "get rich." If you're a company beholden to shareholders (or a parent company), you're basically required to not stop until you have ALL the money.
I'm not against money, but that sort of short-term thinking isn't healthy for the company, the consumer, or the economy.
When the only cost is your time you can afford to take chances and hope to hit it big.
Or even not so big! For every "professional" who won't work without a good income, there's a hundred others who'd be happy for people to see their work and maybe get some extra beer money. From a publishing standpoint, the former deal is less risky overall, so it's better. But for the customer, I'm not sure that's true at all.
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Charging normal price of three bucks for a digital comic is ONE thing but charging that amount to "rent" a comic from Comixology is another. They won't let you download it to your desktop but instead just view it on their site. It's no wonder the pirated copies are more popular than the legit digital sales.
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I think if you go to wowio or drivethru or graphicly you will find many choices for a buck each.
I buy a lot from Drive-Thru. They are my favorite digital comics retailer, and I think their prices are fair. Wowio is decent. I haven't checked lately, but graphic.ly used to be one of those sites that made you buy their comics, but you never really owned them, like Comixology. Unless they've changed their ways, they'll never see one red cent from me.
As far as comics these days go, there are a lot of good comics being produced currently, but none of them are being produced by Marvel or DC. All of the new comics I read are independent or webcomics. The artwork and stories are way better than anything the big two does anymore. I stopped reading Marvel after that ridiculous Scarlet Spider bs, and I can't understand anything that goes on in the DC universe(s) anymore (even after reading Infinite Crisis). To be completely honest the big two can suck it. I don't give them any of my money since the 90s 9 different variant covers, buy two issues so you can take one out of the bag and save the other, etc. crap that my teenaged mind was convinced I needed. I bought all that crap, and now you can find all of it it the quarter boxes at the comics shops. lol The 90s ruined comics for me as far as superhero stuff goes.
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Random thoughts here -
Isn't it funny how your description of gamer complaints mirror those of comics?
Funny thing, gamers are starting to gripe about some very unfamiliar problems: The companies are creating shorter games for more money, then trying to sell add-ons that don't improve the game, the stories are more shallow, and they rely more on high-end graphics than anything else in the experience.
Meanwhile, the game companies are apparently trying to convince the console manufacturers to making gaming a "remote" activity, where you don't actually have the files on your computer.
Hmmm...
Wow, how the times have changed. I dabbled in PC games for a while in the early 90s after leaving comics. (Got very hooked on 'X-Com', 'Civilization' and 'Freedom Force'.) Then drifted away from games when I went online and discovered GA comic scans. Anyways, it sure sounds like the game industry is trying to push the cloud as much as anyone which wouldn't impress me as a buyer (renter) of games. One shouldn't be dependent on a net connection to play a game unless it was designed for head to head human competition that is. I guess I'm just old fashioned. I like to 'own' something that I can use where and when I want. Be it in a city with a connection or on a mountain with say an iPad. And of course whatever product was being read or played, a quality piece of work would be a must for the cost of things these days.
Which leads into what John said about piracy -
...sampling, in that you might buy the comic (or album or whatever), but digital and legally means buying sight unseen, unlike a storefront where you can page through, whereas you can pirate it and figure out if it's worth paying.
[Soapbox Time]
It's true about almost all consumer products. As a buyer you've got prices spiralling higher and higher for everything - food, gas, housing, electricity - and all your entertainment costs are going up as well. Meanwhile you're worried about finding or keeping your job which you likely haven't gotten a raise from in quite a long time while being afraid to take a holiday for fear of having no job when you get back home.
So your buying power is smaller, your choices are more and you are expected to believe all the P.R. crap about each movie, record, comic or tv show being 'must see' and 'must buy.' How many times have you seeing a preview of a movie and thought - 'crap, that was better than the movie itself'? How many comics have you bought for that great cover and gotten sub-par art inside and a worse story? As a consumer it drives me nuts feeling like we're getting ripped-off coming and going. And this 'cloud' idea of never owning anything while giving them access to ALL our personal information really upsets the heck out of me. Remember the first time a store checkout asked for you postal code and later phone number? I've never given them out. If forced I make one up. That's my information and I don't give it away lightly. From what I hear today's youth are quickly and willingly abandoning the idea of privacy. It's a terrible thing and who knows where it will lead?
Piracy for some is giving the finger to those big brother corporations so determined to own us. And for those that do find something they really enjoy I agree many will then go out and buy it to show that support. IF they can find it in the case of comics.
[off soapbox]
Sorry about that, some of these really push my buttons...
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Hey watson387,
what are you reading your scans on? Just curious.
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Just look at the fan fiction that has been around for ages. People write it just to share it. Just look at how much we spend here in time and money just to share. I did not play games for the story. I always skipped over to get to shooting things. I always hated the pauses in the middle to tell the story I just wanted to shoot things. If I want a story I will read a book or watch tv if I play a game I just want to play the darn game.
I primarily read comic scans on an ipad that all the math teachers were given for adopting Prentice Hall books. I hate wasting tax dollars even if they go to me but it would not have mattered, the ipad would have gone to someone else so I took it. I hate hate hate APPLE. With everything proprietary and no USB or SD I hate em. But it makes a good comic book reader which is all I use it for but would never waste the money to buy one.
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I thought one of the new iPAD2 version had an SD slot no? The last of a USB slot is also one of my major misgivings about buying one but after trying several of the Android pads at Staples there was no comparison for quality.
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Hey watson387,
what are you reading your scans on? Just curious.
At the moment I read them on a Kindle Fire using Perfect Viewer (which I sideloaded onto it). I've used other various readers to read digital comics before, but this is the first one I've ever had that I didn't have to convert them to other formats to use. I've been reading digital comics for quite some time now.
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Narf,
I love Apple. Much better against virus programs, and much, much ,much better than Microsoft on everything. I do agree that the proprietary nature of the company is a pain in the tukas. I gave this a lot of thought before selecting Apple. I knew that I was being lulled into buying sh@tty products, microsoft based, because they kept getting cheaper. Problem is, that cheap means cut corners, and eventually total junk. Remember when Dell was tremendous? It's only been a couple of years since they went from premier to poo.
I do not like the cost of Apple products. But overall, my experience is that they really are better. I just accept that i'll have to pay more for something better. I hate it, but it's truth, justice, and the American way
--Dave
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As a corollary to Yoc's comments, it strikes me that we treat ourselves pretty well. Comics, pulps, magazines, books, yadda yadda. Sometimes I have to stop myself from thinking that I somehow should have everything I want. I'm spoiled.
I've got to process this.
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Yoc, there are three forces "conspiring" behind the big cloud push. None of them involve the consumer, unfortunately.
The first and biggest is that the software people (Microsoft especially) did such a good job of getting people onto the same kinds of computers that the PC is a commodity item--you can't compete in the market except on price, because the software makes them indistinguishable. In other words, when you spend four hundred dollars on a computer, you're getting four hundred dollars of computer. Since no company wants to be in a position of selling like that, they'd much rather convince you to spend that same money on a hundred dollar phone or tablet and convince you it's "better."
Second is market saturation, which many companies predicted fifteen years ago. When it comes to application software, useful new features are in rare supply, so there's not much to sell you on for a new version of Photoshop or Excel, and the number of new computer owners is dropping fast as people, y'know, buy them. The "exit strategy" they see is subscription-based service. If you can be convinced to pay ten bucks a month to use Microsoft Office, that's a more predictable revenue stream and probably more money in the long run for them.
Third and the loudest is piracy. If the "only place" you can edit images is "PhotoshopWeb," there's no worries about torrents, counterfeit DVD manufacture in Hong Kong, or much of anything else. I guarantee it's not an important financial impact, but it's a good way to pitch it without whining directly about money.
For some companies (Google), there's also presumably a secret fourth reason of data mining, using your "private" files to build a more comprehensive dossier on you and your habits to better sell to you.
Yes, they'll sell it as never crashing, perpetual backups, and perpetual updates, and that may be true and is valuable. But that's more the bait than the premise, the gilding on the cage, if you will.
(There's a wildcard factor involved that a lab has just made nearly the smallest-possible transistor. This means that the end of the semiconductor industry is in sight, and we may be looking at a complete restart of the computer industry on a new technology like quantum computing soon-ish.)
Narf, I think part of the objection (even if it's not voiced), from what I can tell, is that the "integration" of the story with the game has been lost. I remember starting out where playing the game elaborated the story. Today, as you suggest, you shoot some stuff and are "treated" to a mediocre movie. And the story has become more generic.
I don't know, myself. When the big game companies shifted into action games, they mostly lost me. Though I have been buying the "Humble Indie Bundles" (humblebundle.com) when they come out. It's a choose-your-price deal, the games work on Windows, Mac, and Linux, and money goes to developers and charity, so even if I don't get around to playing some of them, the money's not exactly wasted.
By the way, as a counter to the "piracy is killing everything" story, the current "Bundle" (four games, eight if you pay more than the current average payment, but two of those are from previous Bundles) has had half a million customers and raked in over four million dollars. In less than a week.
Yes, the money's split between about about ten people/organizations, but it shows that there's a fair amount of money to be had in making a good product convenient to customers, rather than pushing the customers around like criminals.
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Thanks for the tip I will look at humblebundle even though I am not miuch of a gamer
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Gah!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39127
All origins, all the time! Issue number zero! Variant covers!
Oh, no. They're reading this thread looking for ideas!
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"Issue number zero!" I've also seen issue 1/2. What about "-1"? That would be amazing!!!!
Talented writers + talented artists = good stories
good stories -direct market + price point + digital download = sales.
Why is this hard?
Gah!
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39127
All origins, all the time! Issue number zero! Variant covers!
Oh, no. They're reading this thread looking for ideas!
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Issue Zero - always loved that non-concept.
Blech!
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Issue Zero - always loved that non-concept.
Blech!
I think DC is missing a huge market for other issue numbers. Think of all the irrational numbers that haven't had issues yet. Issue π! (that's a 'pi') Square root of two! e! The list is endless (literally!)
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I think DC is missing a huge market for other issue numbers. Think of all the irrational numbers that haven't had issues yet. Issue π! (that's a 'pi') Square root of two! e! The list is endless (literally!)
And Roy's negative numbers (didn't someone do that?), and then imaginary and complex numbers! You'd never have to reach the (apparently hated) second issue, and you can reserve the complex numbers without real parts, for dreams, hoaxes, and...oh, what's the term...?
It mostly amazes me that they need an entire "gimmick" month so soon to support the new venture. And I find it very amusing, scanning down the page, at how far they needed to reach to make the month work. Some "highlights" that caught my attention as sounding like that scraping sound you heard was the barrel's bottom:
• Jonah Hex’s early life is accounted for...and it’s plenty ugly!
• Where was the Scarab before it merged with the current Blue Beetle, Jaime Reyes?
• What exactly was the Unknown Soldier before the experiments that changed him forever?
• What is the dark truth behind Grifter’s powers? Find out in this issue!
• The horrible curse that unite them is revealed!
• Witness how Andrew Bennett became a vampire!
• Frankenstein meets his maker…literally!
• The New 52 origin of Guy Gardner!
• The introduction and origin of a surprising new Green Lantern!
• Do you really need another reason to check out this issue?
I think my favorite is the Guy Gardner one, not even trying to convince us it's interesting. It's an origin, take it or leave it, I guess.
Honorable mention goes to Frankenstein, where they apparently didn't realize that literally meeting one's maker isn't the shocking development that figuratively doing so might be. Gosh, how will they meet? Will it be an intimate dinner? A dental appointment? A poker game? The suspense is killing me...figuratively!
(It might have worked better if they had put out a mess of collected zero-issues cheaply before the "new 52" launched. Then the boring origin stories could have been previews of the brave new world, and the numbering would have divorced it from the ongoing/ending universe.)
Talented writers + talented artists = good stories
good stories -direct market + price point + digital download = sales.
Why is this hard?
Actually, that's not even the question anymore. They clearly think (along with many other companies) that they're in a monopoly position with a product required for survival, so no matter how shoddy, expensive, or inconvenient the product, money will apparently roll in, even if that happens to not be a factual result.
The real question I have, at this point, is why there's no competition. An entire industry revolving around recycling last year's concepts for this year's readers (who were also among last year's readers) and making you jump through hoops to spend too much on the product...where are all the wannabes putting out a decent digital download undercutting their prices and without having to sign up for a magic service?
(I had high hopes for Jim Shelley's Flashback Universe books, but that seems to have been more of a hobby to test the waters than a business, and sort of collapsed into another blog complaining about comics/reliving childhood memories of comics. A real shame.)
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I think the 1970s Jonah Hex series had a story about how he was scarred up:
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060505232504/marvel_dc/images/3/3b/Jonah_Hex_v.1_07.jpg)http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Jonah_Hex_Vol_1_7
The rest just seem like regular stories.
I don't think they are necessarily more gimmicky than stuff we read in the 1970s, except instead of having online previews we had covers with ridiculous promises of the contents.
• Jonah Hex’s early life is accounted for...and it’s plenty ugly!
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After reading comments for several days, it strikes me that a total collapse of the big two might not be a bad thing. Perhaps a true artform could rise from the ashes. One thing for sure tho, the current corporate models don't lend themselves to production of sustained quality over a drenching of cheap and unmemorable garbage.
The war between DC and Marvel for market share continues.
Does anyone ever really win in a war?
--David
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The rest just seem like regular stories.
I don't think they are necessarily more gimmicky than stuff we read in the 1970s, except instead of having online previews we had covers with ridiculous promises of the contents.
I don't know how the stories will be, but by "gimmick," I meant an entire month of zero issues which all involve origin stories of one sort or another, many of which come in variant covers. They might be well-written, but the selling point is clearly intended to be COLLECTOR'S ITEM.
And what drew my attention to the Jonah Hex issue was the "...and it's plenty ugly." Because Confederate Civil War veterans are generally known for having led such coddled existences. Most of the rest just struck me as "let's turn a one-panel concept into twenty-two pages." I mean, I'm pretty sure I can guess how Andrew Bennett became a vampire. I'd like to think that the Unknown Soldier used to be a...uhm...what's the word...a soldier.
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Does anyone ever really win in a war?
The people who sell the bullets.
BC
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I think I'll revive this topic and throw in some vague generalities.
What's wrong with comics, or cinema, or text fiction, or any narrative artform? Indifferent writing. Boring stories. The rendition may be technically superb, but if the story doesn't grab me RIGHT AWAY, then bleh. Compelling storytelling can carry weak (audio)visuals; great eye-ear-thumb-candy can't rescue insipid stories. And I find myself with zero interest in constantly rebooted universes, or overused stale old universes, which include many multi-sequel-prequel franchises.
Supply+demand economics rears its head here. Despite all the zillions of authors in the world, relatively few REALLY tell compelling stories. The major studios+imprints always find it easier and more profitable to exploit and re-churn old formulae, than to risk innovation. And they still sell the stuff, so why bother taking risks? Meanwhile, my ex-sis-in-law is an NYT-Bestseller author -- who pays her bills with franchise novelizations, not her own excellent original stories. It's a McStory world.
Webcomics and other creator-owned media may shake the majors, or maybe not. A micropayment system might ensure economic viability - would you pay US$0.001 (1/10th of a cent) per page for digital downloads, if almost all the money went to the creator? Can quality work be produced without corporate intermediaties skimming the take?
I won't go into subscriptions, tablets, clouds etc here. Those are details. The big picture: Deliver compelling stories at a fair price.
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I bought some comics recently from Cloud9. I was surprised to find several had 4 of 5 issues out. This would indicate to me that they had some success with the earlier issues. I hope that is the case. I also have bought some of the "submitted" issues on Comixology. Supporting the little guy. Both offer several types of previews sometimes the first issue free of a series. These are usually what entices me to buy the rest because I want to see what happens. Some like Amber Atoms and Matriach left me satisfied and/or wanting more while others got tired before I finished but may have bought the rest because they were not too much anyway. Sometimes money wasted sometimes well spent. But if the cost compared to new paper is factored in I came out way cheaper than buying paper books that I did not like. Comixology also allows me to buy digital from my LCS to help support them.
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a return to "all ages" stories ... Part of it has to be - their first exposure is the movie or cartoon - to them, unlike us, the comics version isn't the "real" character
They do offer a few kid's comics, but they are just that - written down to what they think a kid would read. That's a far cry from the actual all ages books that used to be readable by kids and adults. The comics I grew up with in the 50s and the 60s had intriguing stories, not too gritty or complicated for kids but not too simple for grown ups. They used to say comics were becoming dumber because writers like Fox and Broome had read real literature, classic and pulp, and the ones who followed them had read mostly comics.
And it's not just the kids who don't recognize the "real" characters, because there no longer is a real version, what with a "New 52" type reboot almost annually. The characters on kids' bedspreads and backpacks don't reflect today's savage hawkmen or sword-wielding wonder women.
I think that with the success of THE DARK KNIGHT FALLS and WATCHMEN, writers decided that ultraviolent heroes and villains were more "mature" than heroes who outwitted their foes instead of just being meaner. Neither book was intended to become the model for the whole industry. Some comics, notably the Bat-books, now read like they hired a bunch of death-obsessed psychotic inmates to write them. That's just being immature in the opposite direction.
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The most successful cartoons like Bugs Bunny, etc were written for adults at the movie theater. Kids and adults love them. Dumbed down not only happens in kids cartoons and comics but the ones for adults also. I find very little humor in many of todays comedy movies. But then I think back to enjoying Jerry Lewis movies and wonder if they were really that much better.
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At the other end of those decisions, I'll just quickly mention that I roll my eyes a bit, every time I hear someone insist that "comics aren't just for kids anymore." First, because early comics clearly weren't. Second, because kids actually like some pretty good stuff. Third, because I learned quickly growing up that the kids who talk about how mature and grown-up they are...tend to be the most childish.
I wonder if that's indicative of the industry, now that I think about it: By pretending it's art and anybody who doesn't like it just doesn't understand, the creators convince themselves to an extent that a good product is a secondary concern.
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Love that opening statement. Note that the superhero movies that are so big with the general public right now (Marvel at least) have all the optimism and wonder of the original, early comics. I'm a little worried that they're moving into the darker and more cosmic stuff too soon, with Thanos and Winter Soldier and the like.
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Moonled, I have to agree what you wrote about, "today's savage hawkmen or sword-wielding wonder women.". And, "Some comics, notably the Bat-books, now read like they hired a bunch of death-obsessed psychotic inmates to write them."
I find the Bat titles almost unreadable but then, I read very few modern superhero comics. This from someone who still has Batman in his top 3. But Batman of other eras - Beginnings, through the '40's; later '50's - early '60's; Adams and the different looks from Garcia Lopez, Wrightson, Gulacy etc. But I remember doing a wee t.v. thingy years ago with the bloke from F.P. , Pete Root and others and all being agreed on how we felt Dark Knight saved comics. How pretentious that sounds now. Hindsight is a great thing but looking back, I wonder if , rather than saving the industry, it darkened it and let the big 2 continue to fight it out when perhaps, without Watchmen or DK, other companies and creators might have popped up with alternative forms of comics entertainments.
It's interesting, to me at any rate, that other comics cultures have/had such a huge diversity of subject matter and these industries are reasonably successful in selling their products. In part because there are, in Japan, Europe, S. America, lots of different publishers, all competing for market share so there almost has to be a diversity of subject matter in order to appeal to as large an audience as possible. Here in the U.K. there was a huge comics business (sadly mostly disappeared, in the main because of the arrival of American comics in the '60's and more and more people looking down their noses at comics and their readership - we are not, nowadays, a comics interested country) with few superheroes or Masked Men but papers filled with all sorts of subject matter, sports, adventure, war, s.f., funnies, school, ( for girls and boys) etc.
I looked at my recent American comics purchases and they are mainly non- superhero. And the books I read from Izneo are all detective, adventure or historical.
Well worth a look at Cloud 9, Izneo, Comixology and others, if only to see what can be done without resort to sword-weilding Wonder Woman or the disgrace of turning Hawkman into something horrible (something which isn't new, if you cast your minds back to the Dark JLA of many years ago)
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I got back into comics after a long break, stopped subscribing to Spider-man when I was 16 (couldnt afford to pay for it being posted to the UK from the US) Im 55 now and got a Motorola Xoom and a Nexus 7 for comic reading. I try and buy a couple of comics a month to keep my local shop a little healthier. If I paid for all the comics I download, I would spend hundreds a month, a lot of them are disposeable and not worth keeping. A lot I couldnt buy anywhere anyway, I recently discovered the delights of The Invisibles, The Boys, Transmetropolitan, The Authority, Planetary and all of Alan Moores work. These are classics and I've bought several of them for the joy of owning them physically. Am I wrong to download them? I could never have afforded to buy them all, although one way I got back into comics is because when visiting the local library every week, I noticed all the graphic novels and came out with an armful every week! I feel I would have miised a great deal of comic-book culture by not reading some of these classics, I cant beleive what was produced in the 80's and 90's that I wasnt even aware of - girls and motorcycles kind of got in the way, I didnt read so many ordinary books in those days either. My 18 year old wounnt read a book to save his life unless it was on Facebook, but my 8 year old devours the printed word and comics as much as me - probably a bit more at the moment, around ten books a week at the local library, full books not the little kiddie ones with 50 words total in them. He reads for at least two hours a night, he's definitely a mini-me! Im a bit annoyed with all the multiples of spin-offs of the classic comic series, I mean I dont even know how many Avengers are going to press every month!
Rant over...
Steve
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I have pretty much left Marvel and DC behind. I think a lot of old time fans fall into that category. My LCS only gets what is ordered. Like you I would never get to see a large variety of books if not for digital. Many of the books I buy are because "free" previews. I have posed that bootleg downloads may be a zero sum on paper sales. Between those who find books to buy and those who do not buy because of bootleg. Most however, are downloaded that the individual never would have bough anyway. Not worth it. Nice thing about digital pay sites is that many books can be bought for only a buck each. I am thinking of buying the 4 issues of the Canadian hero The Leaf only a buck each. Four issues for the price of one paper.
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Interesting news regarding Comixology the cloud memory digital comic book store: It recently banned, then reversed that ban on a critically acclaimed independent space-opera comic Saga along with over 1,000 books from French publishers. Apparently they were too mature. Saga's ban was reversed but the French comics remain banned.
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" Apparently they were too mature. Saga's ban was reversed but the French comics remain banned." CharlieRock
All the more business for Izneo and other sites. Does seem odd that comixology would see fit to ban Euro titles when there is so much violence in so many current American titles. But I think it's not the violence they were concerned about, more the "adult" nature of some Euro G.N.s, which, in many European countries provokes almost no comment. Mind, the new Miss Fury does have a very adult scene and it's not banned. Or is it only certain parts of the anatomy that bother them? Comics aren't just for children, there's a huge wealth of subject matter and entertainment in them.
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Let us go back to the original thought here.
What is wrong with comics today?
1. PRICE - $3 - $4 dollars for 32 pages.
2. PAPER - Why do we need the expensive high gloss paper?
3. STORIES - I remember as a kid in the 70's it would take me about 20-30 minutes to read a comic.
Nowdays text is very, very sparse.
4. CREATIVITY - Constant retreading of heroes and villains mostly created in the 60's and 70's.
It seems that everything is being redone every few years and it get to be pretty
dog gone boring! I frankly am getting sick of it.
5. ADULTS ONLY - Many of the books out today are written expressly for adults.
I would not allow my children to read any of them!
I can take just about any book from Marvel or DC in the 60's and not have that fear!
Those old books today are still a fun read and enjoyable.
6. ART As an professional artist (www.minorfineart.com) I feel that much of the art in
books today
is to busy. Over the top, dark, hard to tell what is going on. Don't get me wrong,
the are very talented. But give me a dynamic story drawn by Kane, Ditko, Kirby
or Infantino any day over the cluttered work we have today.
bminor
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Actually, I agree with most of your analysis, bminor. But is that because I'm old and being nostalgic? Comics, or the comics form, is like books in that there are books for all different ages. So it is with comics. It's just that to spread interest in comics and enlarge the market, N. American comics have often substituted big panels, 2 page spreads, lowering, unfriendly heroes in a mistaken attempt to say, " comics are for all ages". Unfortunately, these " attributes" don't and can't take the place of quality and good entertainment, such as was available decades ago. I realise that many N. American comic readers want to consider their home market but it's relatively small compared to what's available in other places. However, the points about price, content, re-treads, while accurate for some/lots of American product, do not apply to other parts of the comics world - and those other parts are quite successful. Actually, while manga usually use cheaper paper, Euro G.N.s tend to go with glossier but the choice is amazing and the price is fair for the content - pages and story. I'd love to go back to newsprint and the comics of the G.A. and 50's and 60's. but it's not going to happen to any great extent. And as a previously huge consumer of American comics since the '60's, nowadays I read more new Euro comics than American. I don't have to put up with posing, mean looking superheroes in pamphlets I can read in 10 minutes because I can read all different sorts of storylines with a wide range of characters, usually well told and drawn. So, I'll keep on with Mud Man, Rocketeer, Black Bat, Sixth Gun and a few others PLUS some wonderful ideas from outside N. America.
Good discussion, this.
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Paw broon, I'm glad someone else is checking out Rocketeer as well. Have you tried the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series?
I cannot agree more with the price of comics today being far too high for far too less. But recently with Shonen Jump dropping print version I have to think that maybe using newsprint, all-ages content, and an anthology themed set-up is just not profitable enough in an American market. I used to be able to go down to my local grocery store (!) and pick up these magazines with over one hundred pages (sometimes two hundred), which included five or six manga 'issues' as well as fan art, news articles regarding the subject, and creator interviews for about a buck more then I got a 32-page floppy single issue of the major comics.
Then they quit making SJ and went to digital-only. :(
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Not having been a big fan of manga, I have to admit that when we had the comic shop, we sold a lot of SJ and other manga style books. I'd suggest you check out the digital version as, despite what I said at the start, I've been reading bits and pieces of free manga on my tablet - and enjoying some of it. I found Codebreaker and like the look of it, so I'm trying other examples.
Right from the start I could never get into TMNT, sorry. But again, it was very popular and we sold piles of it once upon a time.
So, in turn, can I suggest you have a look at Mud Man?
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I do think that a lot of the market will be replaced by downloads, and the floppies may flat-out die. But there'll be a market, I think, for collected editions, Archie Digests (which I love), and things like that. The comic form won't die, and a lot of heroes will survive. But I think they'll be planed down, and kids will be reading them on their iPads or some such.
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The comic form won't die, and a lot of heroes will survive.
They've tried to kill off spidey, and he's still lingering around :-)
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Let us go back to the original thought here.
What is wrong with comics today?
1. PRICE - $3 - $4 dollars for 32 pages.
.....
bminor
^ This would be bad enough if it was all content. What's really infuraiting is that about a third or more of those 32 pages are ads, comic publishers don't seem to grasp the concept that the advertisers are supposed to pay for the ads, not the customers.
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To parody an old British joke, they're oversexed, they're overpriced, and they're over here!
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Maybe that's because advertisers aren't paying much.
^ This would be bad enough if it was all content. What's really infuraiting is that about a third or more of those 32 pages are ads, comic publishers don't seem to grasp the concept that the advertisers are supposed to pay for the ads, not the customers.
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There are a few comics that are still fun reads. I get CAPTAIN MARVEL, WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN and NOVA. That is, they're fun until they cross into some massive event crossover, like WOLVERINE AND THE X_MEN with A VS X and CAPTAIN MARVEL with AVENGERS: THE ENEMY WITHIN, and now the brand new NOVA with something called "Infinity."
But I just read NOVA #3 and discovered something new. "When you see this (AR), open up the MARVEL AR APP (available on applicable Apople (R) iOS or Android (tm) devices and use your camera-enabled device to unlock extra-special exclusive features."
(AR) appears twice in this issue: once, when it becomes obvious that The Watcher knows more than he is showing Nova, and again when Nova's mom is reprimanding him in Spanish. The latter could be a mere translation (which used to be provided in the comic!) or it could contain backstory about Nova's dad, who was a Black Nova.
It other words, Marvel is telling me that for my $3.99 I am not even getting the whole story!
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Maybe that's because advertisers aren't paying much.
For context, here are sales numbers:
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2013/2013-03.html
The top seven titles command a whopping six-figure audience. Of even that audience (which would be dwarfed by the audience you can access with the cheapest ad slots at your local TV station), a good percentage never opens the book and another chunk consists of middle-aged men who complain about how expensive the book is and how most of it's advertising, and so probably aren't swayed by the ads.
Successful business people might be better candidates to chime in, here, but I can't imagine an audience like that being worth much money to contact.
Of course, that's a vicious cycle: Worse/less content reduces the audience, which reduces the chances to fund/produce better content.
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Most of us aren't the target audience. We'd be better off asking some twentysomethings what they want to read.
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There are a few comics that are still fun reads. I get CAPTAIN MARVEL, WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN and NOVA. That is, they're fun until they cross into some massive event crossover, like WOLVERINE AND THE X_MEN with A VS X and CAPTAIN MARVEL with AVENGERS: THE ENEMY WITHIN, and now the brand new NOVA with something called "Infinity."
I just opened WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN #27 and found out it's only a chapter of the Age of Ultron event. Wolverine is in it, partnered with Sue Storm, but none of the regular supporting cast of students and teachers even get a cameo. I may drop my last few Marvel titles.
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We're pretty much in the position of a Golden Age fan who sees an ish of THE AVENGERS with Captain America on the cover, buys it, looks thru it, and gets confused by these characters called Goliath, the Wasp, and Hawkeye. Where'd they come from??
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I just opened WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN #27 and found out it's only a chapter of the Age of Ultron event. Wolverine is in it, partnered with Sue Storm, but none of the regular supporting cast of students and teachers even get a cameo. I may drop my last few Marvel titles.
There are 2 versions of W&X 27. There's a normal, non-ultron one, and an "AU" one. They are doing this with several tie-in comics including fantastic four #5, a few avengers titles, and a couple other comics.
Regular version: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130327192358/marveldatabase/images/0/01/Wolverine_and_the_X-Men_Vol_1_27.jpg
AU version: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/3/3c/Wolverine_and_the_X-Men_Vol_1_27AU.jpg
I'm sick & tired of these universe-wide "events". It's very much akin to when there was the huge fad of making 20 different covers for each issue back in the 90s, it's fine (perhaps even good) when it's once-in-a-while, but it's just tedious & obnoxious when it never friggin stops.
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I just opened WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN #27 and found out it's only a chapter of the Age of Ultron event. Wolverine is in it, partnered with Sue Storm, but none of the regular supporting cast of students and teachers even get a cameo. I may drop my last few Marvel titles.
There are 2 versions of W&X 27. There's a normal, non-ultron one, and an "AU" one. They are doing this with several tie-in comics including fantastic four #5, a few avengers titles, and a couple other comics.
Regular version: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130327192358/marveldatabase/images/0/01/Wolverine_and_the_X-Men_Vol_1_27.jpg
AU version: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/3/3c/Wolverine_and_the_X-Men_Vol_1_27AU.jp
Thanks! My local comics store was willing to exchange it for me.
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Yeah, I have no idea why they decided to do it in such a confusing way. At a minimum they should have numbered the ultron tie-ins as .1s or .2s or something. The key to look for is the banner at the bottom. The ultron ones have a big red circle sticking up in the middle (the normal ones are straight across) with a big AU. If you see that on one, you know that it's a "bonus" issue and not the normal issue of that number.
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This reply may be a little late in coming since it was brought up nearly a year ago but I just went to WOWIO, for the first time and I am impressed with the number of titles that they have. One of the best features that they have is that you can preview the fist 5 or 6 pages to see if you like it, most of the titles are $.99 but some go higher.
I purchased 4 , at $.99 ea. just to see how everything went. The download was a little slow, the books themselves are in PDF, not my favourite but I am able to convert to cbr.
All in all a good legal source for books, you won't find a lot of the mainstream titles, but there is a lot of good reading at a reasonable cost.
I am going to pay a visit to DriveThruComics to do some comparisons.
The fact is, that the best bang for your buck is still DCM, so visit lots, download lots, and donate lots.
backflash
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Thanks for the review BF.
Let us know what you think of DriveThru. This is the first I've heard of them.
BTW, what are you reading your scans on?
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I generally use CDisplay as it is the simplest, most straight forward, I also have Comic Rack which offers many more options.
I recently came across ComicSeer, but haven't installed it yet, it appears to very similar to Comic Rack, will try it out soon and let you know how it performs
backflash
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Hi B,
Ah, so you are not on a tablet I guess.
If you try any apps you'd like to review please feel free to start a new topic on it.
Take care,
-Yoc
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I'm reading comics on my Samsung tablet. New stuff from Comixology, French G.N.s from Izneo and old comics and strips downloaded from a select few other sites. I have "Perfect Viewer" installed for .cbz, .cbr files and there is a built in "office" programme which reads pdf files. All I do is go to "File Manager", select a file from the internal memory (or e.g. the Comixology app) or the micro sd card and hours of happy reading ensue. Oddly, the Izneo app doesn't react as well, or as quickly as Perfect Viewer, or Comixology, for that matter but the sheer quality of much of the French and Belgian books is so good that it doesn't matter. I said somewhere else on here that Cinebooks now release English translations of French books and they are on Izneo, where you can sample a few pages of each album. None of this replaces the feel, smell and look of a "real" old newsprint comic or story paper but it certainly saves on space. Most new comics from DC and Marvel leave me cold nowadays. And, to me, one of the great losses in comics was the change from newsprint to glossy paper. But that's because I grew up with comics printed on crap paper and I loved them. All that shiny stock is fine for prestige books and albums but I'd rather have paper you could spit through.
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I'm with you paw. The jump to baxter, etc paper in the 80s and the rise in prices did not impress me either.
Today they've priced themselves out of the idea of impulse buying. I recall grabbing many just to give them a try. It's only 50 cents or later a dollar. But today? I don't think so.
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As I said before, I am getting on in years, I can remember as a kid on a Saturday meeting friends and trading comics, not much of that going on today. I had a friend who subscribed to Mad magazine and it always arrived on a Friday, we would go over to his house after school so we all could get a look at it. We didn't think of collecting as such, many a comic was rolled up and carried in a back pocket (sacrilege)the main thing was to able to read as many as possible.
You can tout all the advantages of digital comics, and there are many,but nothing beats holding the real thing in your hands and for some reason the new glossy paper issues just don't cut it,we turn the pages so carefully so as not to damage them , keep them in bags, sometimes never to be read (one advantage of having digital) so much of the actual joy of reading comics is gone ,but what do I know I'm old.
backflash
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And with the plastic CGC coffins collecting comics is basically collecting over-sized stamps.
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Backflash you will find that most here in this digital community feel the same way. We are creating digital as a way to share our passion. But we all have the books we love. Most of the books that I have I would like to sell to make space. But I do have lots of books that picking them up gives an emotional high.
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True Narf. But the main reason for sites like DCM and CB+ are sharing comics that no single person (well, maybe JVJ) could possibly amass without unlimited funds, time and storage space. Long may our sites reign!
-Yoc
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True Narf. But the main reason for sites like DCM and CB+ are sharing comics that no single person (well, maybe JVJ) could possibly amass without unlimited funds, time and storage space. Long may our sites reign!
-Yoc
Here here...Yoc.
Geo
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I'm sorry to have to say this, but judging by the covers (yeah, I know I shouldn't do that), I don't think there's much individuality left in comic book art today. It almost seems like many of these covers are all done by the same person.
Or perhaps it's that the artists today are all using the same set of software/production tools?... I dunno.
Don't get me wrong, I like computer art. And I can understand that many comic book companies would like to "standardize" the look of their characters for legal reasons... but I think the overuse of computer modeling and production methods to automate and enforce house styles leaves little for actual art, done by real physical artists. And produces boring, tired looking comic book art that's pretty creepy looking as well imo.
And when I say it's creepy looking, I don't mean it in a good way either. :)
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The Uncanny Valley? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UncannyValley (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UncannyValley)
Or that some of them looked generated from porn?
I'm sorry to have to say this, but judging by the covers (yeah, I know I shouldn't do that), I don't think there's much individuality left in comic book art today. It almost seems like many of these covers are all done by the same person.
Or perhaps it's that the artists today are all using the same set of software/production tools?... I dunno.
Don't get me wrong, I like computer art. And I can understand that many comic book companies would like to "standardize" the look of their characters for legal reasons... but I think the overuse of computer modeling and production methods to automate and enforce house styles leaves little for actual art, done by real physical artists. And produces boring, tired looking comic book art that's pretty creepy looking as well imo.
And when I say it's creepy looking, I don't mean it in a good way either. :)
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I don't know about the porn reference Roy, but that "Uncanny Valley" thing you point to might be a part of it... but not a big part, at least for me.
No, what I'm talking about (as that author also notes) is the use of programs like "Poser" to generate the artwork. Some might make the argument that it's equivalent to using a manikin... and it could be used that way... but it just doesn't seem to be, it's being used for more than that imo.
Perhaps I'm just an old fuddyduddy, but I sorta liked seeing the "Buscema Hulk" or the "Trimpe Hulk." Now it seems one day we just might have "The Hulk," with folks who just move body parts around that someone else designed... once. Good for comic book companies, but I'm sorry, to me this just seems wrong in some fundamental way... and I'm certainly not going to support the practice by buying it either.
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I haven't seen any examples, myself, since I haven't followed comics in a long while. But it seems like this is just the modern equivalent of shops and ghosts. If my superstar artist is running behind schedule, I can fire him and piss off his fans, delay the book and piss off its fans, hire help that costs a fair bit of money, or have an intern run some off-the-shelf software that does three quarters of the work.
As a bonus, software would also presumably lower the minimum ability shown in the art, so you don't end up with badly-rendered extremities or pencillers who have never actually seen a woman in person trying to fake it.
Mind you, I'm against computerized lettering and coloring, and probably wouldn't like this, either. But if I needed to get a product out, quasi-automation makes the product more consistent (which usually leads to more sales--think McDonald's or most network sitcoms) and cheaper (which usually means there's fewer sales needed to keep the book afloat), which makes it an easy decision.
Give it five or ten more years. I've seen a couple of projects that strongly suggest we'll be seeing automated writing soon, at least for formulaic media and at least for a skeletal plot. And many comic books are, in fact, pretty formulaic.
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I assumed you were talking about the extensive use of photo reference the kids are into these days, where some of the women looked copied from porn.
I don't know about the porn reference Roy <snip>
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I haven't seen any examples, myself, since I haven't followed comics in a long while. But it seems like this is just the modern equivalent of shops and ghosts. If my superstar artist is running behind schedule, I can fire him and piss off his fans, delay the book and piss off its fans, hire help that costs a fair bit of money, or have an intern run some off-the-shelf software that does three quarters of the work.
As a bonus, software would also presumably lower the minimum ability shown in the art, so you don't end up with badly-rendered extremities or pencillers who have never actually seen a woman in person trying to fake it.
Mind you, I'm against computerized lettering and coloring, and probably wouldn't like this, either. But if I needed to get a product out, quasi-automation makes the product more consistent (which usually leads to more sales--think McDonald's or most network sitcoms) and cheaper (which usually means there's fewer sales needed to keep the book afloat), which makes it an easy decision.
Give it five or ten more years. I've seen a couple of projects that strongly suggest we'll be seeing automated writing soon, at least for formulaic media and at least for a skeletal plot. And many comic books are, in fact, pretty formulaic.
Do I come off as being anti-capitalistic or something?
This "comics and comic art is like McDonalds hamburgers" argument you're giving here is really not worth my commenting on, but...
(1) I don't follow modern comics either, but I do occasionally notice them advertised on another (not to be mentioned) website, and yes, I think this is becoming the standard practice.
(2) No, I don't really consider it the modern equivalent of "shops and ghosts."
(3) I don't know too much about these rabid comic "fans" of which you speak, since I was never really one of them... perhaps they should step back and consider whether or not a lot of these works should even be produced in the first place... but I was always attracted to good artwork though. And that's my problem with comics today... there isn't that much.
(4) Again, I'm not opposed to capitalism. But I DO like spending my pennies on things of quality, and I think I deserve that as well... especially since those pennies are so hard to come by. For me, someone using a program like "Poser" on a piece of what is to be considered "finished art" is not something that makes the cut for me.
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I assumed you were talking about the extensive use of photo reference the kids are into these days, where some of the women looked copied from porn.
I don't know about the porn reference Roy <snip>
IMO there's nothing wrong with using photo references, artists and illustrators have been using them ever since the camera was developed, it's in the HOW (and how well) that matters.
But perhaps you've touched on something else as well... that with porn being so prevalent, it just happens that perhaps the art of figure drawing has become archaic... in other words, "people have porn, why would they be interested in a well drawn nude?" Or ultimately by extension, a well drawn tightly clothed figure. But I digress. :)
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Do I come off as being anti-capitalistic or something?
I hope I didn't imply that. I didn't mean to. My point was that you integrate tools like that to make the work easier/cheaper and more even, just like using an assembly line in a factory. It's OK to object on artistic terms, but it'll be about as effective (and one day, probably as socially acceptable) as objecting to Ford's use of assembly lines rather than craftsmen to build their cars.
(That was my point about McDonald's. Everybody pretty much agrees that the food is lousy, but it's popular because it's mostly "good enough" and the customer knows exactly what he's going to get in the greasy bag when he pulls up to the window.)
I'm not defending it, just pointing out that it's going to accelerate because the goal has never been to impress the readers with talent.
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It's OK to object on artistic terms, but it'll be about as effective (and one day, probably as socially acceptable) as objecting to Ford's use of assembly lines rather than craftsmen to build their cars.
I found this article, about Greg Land's art style, good reading: "Possibly the Most Harmful Art I’ve Seen in a Comic" (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/05/21/possibly-the-most-harmful-art-ive-seen-in-a-comic/).
One of the most common complaints I hear about the "porn look" in comics is that the women all have porn face.
BCing you
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Do I come off as being anti-capitalistic or something?
I hope I didn't imply that. I didn't mean to. My point was that you integrate tools like that to make the work easier/cheaper and more even, just like using an assembly line in a factory. It's OK to object on artistic terms, but it'll be about as effective (and one day, probably as socially acceptable) as objecting to Ford's use of assembly lines rather than craftsmen to build their cars.
(That was my point about McDonald's. Everybody pretty much agrees that the food is lousy, but it's popular because it's mostly "good enough" and the customer knows exactly what he's going to get in the greasy bag when he pulls up to the window.)
I'm not defending it, just pointing out that it's going to accelerate because the goal has never been to impress the readers with talent.
Who said the food at McDonalds was lousy?
I don't go there often, but I've been there (and recently as a matter of fact), and I thought they've made good progress in improving the menu... and the hamburgers aren't too bad. Better then I've found in some crappola diners I've gone to... hey look, they are what they are... and as far as I know they've always been what they are. Although perhaps they were even better back when they had meat in them instead of all that soybean stuff.
Getting back to comics though... yeah I'm sorry, but I never found comic book characters THAT compelling that I'd want to pick up a comic and buy it just for the story, for me there was always a strong interest in well crafted artwork as well.
So comics with Poser faux art? No thanks. Much like with McDonalds, I know pretty much what I'm getting there as well, and in this case it's just not "good enough."
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Being from a foreign country and culture to the N. Americans among you, in this case left of centre Scotland, I am a bit anti-capitalism, in the sense of wanting a mixed economy. And I think the food at McDonalds isn't very good and I'm proud to say I haven't given them any money in over a decade. But that's not a lot to do with comics and what's wrong with them nowadays. As with Drusilla lives!, it's the art that attracts me, except when I see an obscure masked mystery man comics and I'll read it even when poorly done. The computer generated art thingy is important and I understand the business reasons for comics companies using it. Their only reason for existing is to make money for shareholders and a wee bit for staff. It's just that their product is comics as opposed to bricks or swimming pools. If a comics co. can turn out titles as cheap as possible and have them sell in decent numbers, they are going to do that in the most economical way they can. That's nowadays but in years gone by, long before computers, we had real people drawing by hand, and so we have some amazingly high quality original art - and a lot of not so good stuff. Things change.
I've been doing some work on an old British anthology title for CB+ and, although I had read some of these titles years ago, I was amazed and entertained all over again by the work of a humour strip artist, Harry Banger (rhymes with danger). All done with a pen and paper. But if a comic such as the Japanese title, Case Closed, is done using computer assisted or generated images, then I'm quite happy with that and I would still consider it an entertaining comic if it were. I suppose it comes down to personal taste but I have to acknowledge that most folk on here start with a knowledge of the background to comics, their creators and how they are produced. Does any of this affect the younger reader when he pitches up at his lcs and makes his purchases? If he does do that, instead of spending his dosh on computer games, for example. Although the suggestion of the porn ref. could be a way of bringing in the young male reader. Pretty cynical if that is what's happening.
Excuse the ramble.
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It's OK to object on artistic terms, but it'll be about as effective (and one day, probably as socially acceptable) as objecting to Ford's use of assembly lines rather than craftsmen to build their cars.
I found this article, about Greg Land's art style, good reading: "Possibly the Most Harmful Art I’ve Seen in a Comic" (http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/05/21/possibly-the-most-harmful-art-ive-seen-in-a-comic/).
One of the most common complaints I hear about the "porn look" in comics is that the women all have porn face.
BCing you
So what's the real problem with Land's work?
That he copies photos? That his (female) characters all have "porn face?" Or is it that he's having a hard time putting it all together... in other words, plotting?
I was reading the readers comments that follow the article and they're all over the place. I took a quick glance at those example pages and it seems more of the latter imo. I'm not an expert, but I think his biggest problem is getting the page flowing in a less jarring manner. Those page wide panels... eh, not so much dude. And would it kill you to add something in the background, like some faux machinery or gizmo's? :)
Which points out another facet of the problem of relying on something like Poser... you might be generating characters with standardized bodies (i.e. the one and only Hulk), but you still might not have the flair for arranging them in a compelling and esthetically pleasing manner. Not only in one panel, but on the whole page and throughout the comic book.
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McDonald's - probably palatable but it's presumably the worst/cheapest farming, ingredients, and labor. I'm not taking a stand against it, and it's going to be better than many boutique places, and that's actually my point. The consistency and reliability that you can get exactly the same meal in almost any part of the world without much risk is a much better selling point to a mass audience than "only the best ingredients, cooked with care by expert chefs," which could be amazing or a disaster.
Capitalism - I'm not against it, but I think thhe capitalism/communism debate is getting played out in the next few years, with distributed manufacture, automation, and so forth. Both philiosophies are predicated on the idea that you can only run a newspaper by investing millions of dollars in equipment and labor. When you can launch a blog for ten bucks (or even free), both ideas start to fall apart, if you look too closely at them. For example, on the capitalist side, you get companies that make nothing except a profit (banking, insurance), which any sensible person would ignore, and people with jobs that produce nothing.
Porn-Tracing - I find it pretty demeaning, to start with. There's also the art aspect of...well, if he traced over a Kirby-drawn figure, he'd be run out on a rail, but gets away with this and may open the companies up to copyright infringement suits, by the way, to the glee of the ghost of Dr. Wertham. And then there's the craft aspect that a story can only be told if it can be told through women posed like in porn, which strikes me as far more limiting than early science-fiction TV shows, where most aliens look human and most planets better look like whatever's on the back lot.
Harry Banger - Please tell me he hangs out with a Willy Mash, pronounced "Moss."
Characters - I'm pretty sure that, these days, comics are mostly focus group data for studios to mine for their next movies. If the art brings a few readers in, that's great, but I'd bet it's mostly staking out trademarks and pitching to the aforementioned studios. There's no way Marvel or DC could support themselves, the way they're run, and their best hopes would be to publish as wide a variety of books as possible as cheaply as possible.
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Good points about capitalism/communism but I don't want you getting the idea we're all commies here. More socialist inclined. Illustrated by the fact that there is only 1 Tory M.P. elected from Scotland and the only reason there are some Tories in the Scottish parliament is because we have a different electoral sytem than the one used for Westminster. Gives other parties a bit more chance to be represented. Democracy, I suppose, as we have a 4 party system here with a lot of other small parties. Sorry, off-topic again.
"Harry Banger - Please tell me he hangs out with a Willy Mash, pronounced "Moss.""
I wish that were true. But if you fancy a look at his stuff, here's a page:-
http://www.illustrationartgallery.com/acatalog/info_BangerCute.html
I tried a copy of #1 of Miss Fury as I've always enjoyed the original but I was really scunnered with some of the poses and suggestive text. It makes me worried what Dynamite will do with King's Watch - a Narda "sans culottes"? I'm not going to try because they made a mess of their version of The Phantom. Yet another thing to add to what's wrong with comics today.
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Capitalism - I'm not against it, but I think thhe capitalism/communism debate is getting played out in the next few years, with distributed manufacture, automation, and so forth. ...
Eh, yeah... that whole capitalism/communism thing... the multinational corporations won. Besides, it was always a bit of a crock anyway, there will always be someone who wields power.
Porn-Tracing...
To me what's absurd is not that he traces porn, it's that he traces.
... I tried a copy of #1 of Miss Fury as I've always enjoyed the original but I was really scunnered with some of the poses and suggestive text. It makes me worried what Dynamite will do with King's Watch - a Narda "sans culottes"? I'm not going to try because they made a mess of their version of The Phantom. Yet another thing to add to what's wrong with comics today.
So you're still trying those Dynamite titles out paw... did you take a look at that Shadow comic they have out? I thought it would have disappeared by now, but I see the title made it into the double digits.