Digital Comic Museum
General Category => Comic Related Discussion => Topic started by: Yoc on May 22, 2011, 11:47:20 AM
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I've split this away from Roy's topic to encourage more readers and clean up Roy's Commissions topic.
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Hey Roy,
Here's a suggestion if you are still looking for any.
I had an idea for a commission that could not only be fun but historically significant.
The problem would be only a few still living artists could supply it.
Background -
AlterEgo101 has a Fox Features theme. Victor Fox as you know was one of the first to jump on the superhero bandwagon after DC published Action #1. He had many heroes in his stable, most of them second and third stringers most don't know.
Fox also had a lot of great artist come through his stable as they matured and moved on usually being owed money!
So we know what he published, the characters, etc. And we know who he used for artists - Simon, Kirby, Fine.
BUT we don't have a clue just What did Victor Fox LOOK LIKE? AE101 didn't have a picture. This was my big hope but it was not to be.
My suggestion - find a GA artist that worked for Fox to do a portrait of the mystery man that is Victor Fox!
It could be a simple job or more involved if you had some of the characters he published included.
I'm actually surprised that nobody has done this already at some point in the past.
The hard part will be finding someone still alive that is willing to do it. Two that come to mind are Joe Simon and Al Feldstein.
It's all most likely pie in the sky but the man that was Victor Fox is almost a complete enigma and I'm sure many would like to put a face on him.
-Yoc
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Hey Roy,
Here's a suggestion if you are still looking for any.
I had an idea for a commission that could not only be fun but historically significant.
The problem would be only a few still living artists could supply it.
Background -
AlterEgo101 has a Fox Features theme. Victor Fox as you know was one of the first to jump on the superhero bandwagon after DC published Action #1. He had many heroes in his stable, most of them second and third stringers most don't know.
Fox also had a lot of great artist come through his stable as they matured and moved on usually being owed money!
So we know what he published, the characters, etc. And we know who he used for artists - Simon, Kirby, Fine.
BUT we don't have a clue just What did Victor Fox LOOK LIKE? AE101 didn't have a picture. This was my big hope but it was not to be.
My suggestion - find a GA artist that worked for Fox to do a portrait of the mystery man that is Victor Fox!
It could be a simple job or more involved if you had some of the characters he published included.
I'm actually surprised that nobody has done this already at some point in the past.
The hard part will be finding someone still alive that is willing to do it. Two that come to mind are Joe Simon and Al Feldstein.
It's all most likely pie in the sky but the man that was Victor Fox is almost a complete enigma and I'm sure many would like to put a face on him.
-Yoc
Hi Yoc
That sounds interesting, but not really up my alley or pocketbook.
Michael Netzer has actually drawn a bunch of portraits here: http://michaelnetzer.com/mnop/?tag=portraits-of-the-creators-sketchbook
I think the idea was that they were for Wikipedia. Maybe he'd be able to do it - I'd imagine even GA artists couldn't do a portrait from memory, they'd need a photo reference.
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Memory is all they'd have to work from Roy. As far as I can tell there's no pictures of the man out there.
Even his background is very fuzzy. Only one published source has speculated on his roots and I've never seen it confirmed anywhere.
Well, like I said, it was a pie in the sky thought.
-Yoc
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Nice idea, and not necessarily 'pie in the sky'. Did anybody ever find out what happened to him in the end? Perhaps he's still alive somewhere in South America, along with all the other aging crooks and war criminals! :)
Bearing in mind the number of artists he swindled over the years it's possible that one of them would be only too happy to produce a suitable caricature on the understanding that he'd be remembered that way in all future histories of the medium until the end of time. Perhaps something along the lines of Marvin Stein's famous image of Ben Oda, Joe Simon, Joe Genola, Mort Meskin and Jack Kirby from the cover of the American Justice Traps the Guilty no.56 would fit the bill...?
(http://i53.tinypic.com/24mb4g6.jpg)(In fact it occurs to me that somebody probably did use him in this way as the model for a crook or unscrupulous publisher. The problem is that there are so few people left who'd be able to spot the likeness after all these years!)
- Phil Rushton
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Well, I believe Al Feldstein has a web-site, http://www.alfeldstein.com/. His painting are around $2k, I'd imagine a pencil sketch would be far less. You never know, he might do it for free if you tell him about it.
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Taking for granted that the Eisner guy in "The Dreamer" actually looks like Eisner, it stands to reason that "Vincent Reynard" bears some resemblance to Fox, Yoc.
Or maybe he's entirely fictional, created by one of the artists who wanted to run a company, but didn't want to take the heat for his bad decisions. Like Remington Steele, without the manners. I'm not suggesting anybody take this seriously, but it's amusingly worth noting that the history of the form HAS seen two cigar-chomping Kings of Comics...
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I never thought the lead in The Dreamer looked much like Eisner and For Sure the Jimmy Samson character looks Nothing like Jerry Iger did at that time. Google will show you he sure wasn't a short nebish with glasses. So I've never given Eisner's Dreamer version of Fox much faith.
-Yoc
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There might be a photo of Fox laying about somewhere, after all he did make a big splash in 1948 in Time magazine with his "people are idiots" statement. At the time it was considered just as inflammatory than perhaps even Gaines' later Senate hearings testimony regarding that CSS cover.
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There might be a photo of Fox laying about somewhere, after all he did make a big splash in 1948 in Time magazine with his "people are idiots" statement. At the time it was considered just as inflammatory than perhaps even Gaines' later Senate hearings testimony regarding that CSS cover.
This one: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,804769,00.html ?
The quote is apparently "There are more morons than people, you know." - http://www.dreadfuldays.net/soti/soti_chapt10/soti_chapt10.html
Maybe there's a pic in the Time article if you get reprint permission, or check a large library/microfiche.
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Thanks for the links Roy!
I've found just one picture online with Victor Fox in the title.
But who's to know if the little girl with the very unique name "Celestine Fuchs" is related to 'our' Fox or not?
-Yoc
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/4819/victorfoxandcelestinefu.jpg)
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Would he likely look like his stand-in from Eisner's "The Dreamed"?
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html
During the hearing, would they have taken photos for a newspaper maybe? I searched for New York Times entries at the time of the hearing, but nothing came up.
This could be a fun detective project.
What about making a list of Golden Age writers and artists who worked with/for him, then we could contact them and see if they have any pix? Tic-toc.
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'The Dreamer' Roy.
I still think Eisner took a lot of liberties with how he drew people in The Dreamer.
I sent the above photo to Feldstein and heard nothing back. After that it'll need legwork.
Any help is welcome!
-Yoc
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It sounds like your a lot closer then before with this and other information you've been gathering. Wishing you lots of good luck with it Yoc. I know it's been a long time coming.
Geo
'The Dreamer' Roy.
I still think Eisner took a lot of liberties with how he drew people in The Dreamer.
I try and send the above photo to Feldstein. After that it'll need legwork.
Any help is welcome!
-Yoc
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This one: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,804769,00.html ?
The quote is apparently "There are more morons than people, you know." - http://www.dreadfuldays.net/soti/soti_chapt10/soti_chapt10.html
Maybe there's a pic in the Time article if you get reprint permission, or check a large library/microfiche.
Yeah, that's it... the "morons" remark... it was big news back then.
I was looking through Nicky Wright's "The Classic Era of American Comics" and he commented there that Fox happened to be from England, entering the comics biz as an accountant with DC Comics... which is one of the reasons why he jumped into the fray with "Wonder Man," he saw how profitable Superman was first-hand. Anyway, there might also be photos of him with regards to DC's early days... not that that is any more well documented... early comic biz history is a dark and muddled place it seems.
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Fox never worked for DC. He published an Astrology magazine which was distributed by Independent News. That's how he got his hands on Action Comics sales figures, looking through the rate cards for his own magazine.
I think Feldstein might be your best bet.
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Hi Drusilla,
That old chestnut that Fox was a savvy accountant for DC has been around for ages and repeated in The Dreamer. Thankfully KenQ's wonderful find of the DC vs Fox transcript takes from mouths of the very people involved under oath evidence that Fox never worked for DC. He worked from the same Building but on a different floor.
You can read all about it in the latest AlterEgo #101 or on KenQ's blog here - http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html (http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html)
It's a lot to read but PACKED with wonderful first hand stories from the birth of the GA superhero.
-Yoc
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Fox never worked for DC. He published an Astrology magazine which was distributed by Independent News. That's how he got his hands on Action Comics sales figures, looking through the rate cards for his own magazine.
I think Feldstein might be your best bet.
Hi Drusilla,
That old chestnut that Fox was a savvy accountant for DC has been around for ages and repeated in The Dreamer. Thankfully KenQ's wonderful find of the DC vs Fox transcript takes from mouths of the very people involved under oath evidence that Fox never worked for DC. He worked from the same Building but on a different floor.
You can read all about it in the latest AlterEgo #101 or on KenQ's blog here - http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html (http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-will.html)
It's a lot to read but PACKED with wonderful first hand stories from the birth of the GA superhero.
-Yoc
Ha ha! You guys got me there on that one. :P :)
Seems that Nicky Wright book is alittle out of date!
Well, I did say that the history of the early comic biz is a dark and muddled place didn't I. And IMO the full weight of that statement is definitely something to think about when you consider that it takes court testimony given under oath by those involved on a somewhat unrelated matter to piece together the truth as to who's who and such. ;)
And thanks for the link Yoc, looks interesting.
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Ken's blog is Packed with amazing reading D.
Well worth the time to read.
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Old thread...don't know if anybody is paying attention, but...
The photo...Victor Fox & Celestine Fuchs...is interesting because Fuchs is a likely candidate for the original Fox surname. Though Victor was born in England his parents were born in Lithuania, so the surname was anglicized during their time there before coming to the US.
I think that the Fox family may have had relatives in Fall River MA, where they first settled in the US.
But I can find no more info about that photo. It seems a longshot...though if it turned out it was taken in Fall River I would reconsider.
Eisner cartooned people up for the Dreamer, but what is there is generally consistent with descriptions of Fox and of the statistics in his draft records.
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Hi David,
It would be amazing if something more could be found.
Not long after my last reply I stumbled across a goldmine in an old EC Comics story!
From the last issue of EC's Modern Love #8 - and the last story - 'The Love Story To End All Love Stories' by Al Feldstein. In it EC does a parody of the romance comic glut on the market and takes some shots at what clearly are Victor Fox as well as Simon and Kirby. You can see it at the follow link (scroll down half a page past all the covers)
http://thegoldenagesite.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/ecs-romance-titles-1949-1950-artwork-by.html
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PB-O1yT5EYg/SZYpu0kFs5I/AAAAAAAAevY/SXaRybSnXFE/s400/lovestory_01.jpg)The same story is talked about in this blog entry here (again scroll down a while to see the entry) - http://eddiecampbell.blogspot.ca/2011/12/m-y-copy-of-michelle-nolans-book-love.html
And here's a preview of the Fox character from the story (called Mr Wolf)-
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PpkGihAe2pw/TuGNiA8GRBI/AAAAAAAAHBA/TlJeVOjIz0A/s400/love5.jpg)This depiction is much closer to the descriptions of Victor Fox that I found out there. Especially the horn rim glasses which Eisner never used in Dreamer graphic novel.
It would be great if an actual photo were to someday show but for now this is the image of Fox I'll carry in my mind.
-Yoc
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Oh god...that is brilliant! And that's certainly got to be a Feldstein caricature of Fox.
I've been researching Fox for the last couple of months. I really got started because I'm such a Jack Kirby and he's such an influence on my writing, and the constant references to Fox as mysterious and such got me wondering.
I discovered that to some degree I duplicated research already done for the Blue Beetle Companion, which I bought just for the Fox info, but I think I've found some stuff that nobody else has pieced together yet. I'll probably put together an article on him in the next couple months.
It's amazing that a man who was so many times involved in legal tangling...the shipping frauds of the early 1920s, the stock fraud of 1929, the DC lawsuit of 1939, assorted legal troubles in the 1940s could completely elude the camera.
I have found photos of his family, though I'm not sure about posting because they are from a copyrighted work. I think I know where I can get a photo of Fox...but it likely won't be good, only a headshot, and the cost is a little prohibitive. But I'm thinking about it.
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Hi David,
I would truly LOVE to read what you've found and see any pictures!
Hehehe wasn't that a fun story? I'm glad I could share that with you. I used some panels as part of the archive Phabox and I recently released.
The Phantom Lady Archive v2 - The Fox Years. We covered as much as we could find on Victor Fox who really has fallen though the cracks of history. A dubious character for sure but I'd love to know more about him. The Blue Beetle Companion was the only source to claim background info on Fox's name change and family ancestory. I went digging on the recently release NYC 1940 census and found three Victor Foxes - none of them our man though.
I found one court case from the 40's that I hadn't seen mentioned anywhere else. An Oct 1944 court martial. His part ownership in Cornwall Shipbuilding Company and testimony for the prosecution filled a hole in his history nobody else has talked about afaik. I had to give up my Fox search so we could finally release the long long delayed collection.
Check it out in the Fox bio in our PL collection - http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/index.php?dlid=20074. I have a bibliography at the end of it.
The direct link to the Fox bio is here - http://digitalcomicmuseum.com/preview/index.php?did=19663&page=18
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You're going to laugh but Fox sort of reminds me of my grandfather, though on a much grander scale. He likewise was the son of orthodox Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, Hungary in his case, and bounced from scheme to scheme. I think I sort of understand Fox. Don't necessarily approve, but I get his thinking.
I've seen news reports of the 1944 court case but not the court documents. The 1920 case dragged on for years and apparently set some kind of important precedent in maritime law. I've found Fox in the 1940 census. For some reason I had some difficulty but his WW2 draft record helped me find it. 1900, 1910, 1920 as well. 1930 I haven't been able to find.
I know the Fox family was in Nottingham by 1891, courtesy of the 1891 English census. A list of surnames in Vilna...their hometown in Lithuania...lists no Fox, but does have Fuks (kind of funny, don't you think?) and Fuchs. No specific info though, just a surname list.
Fox's name at birth was Samuel Victor Jacob Fox. Family was in Fall River by 1900. Another Fox family from Russia lived 500 feet up the road from them, leading me to believe that despite reports that it was mother Bessie who had family there it was actually father Joseph.
There are photos of Joseph, Bessie and a some of Victor's sisters in Meryle Secrest's biography of Stephen Sondheim because...wait for it...Victor Fox is the UNCLE of Stephen Sondheim!!! Though he rates little more than a mention a fair amount of family background is presented in a couple of pages in the first chapter. For some reason it makes me imagine a Kirby influenced ASSASSINS, with Red Skull, Dr. Doom & Darkseid replacing Booth, Oswald & Charlie Guiteau.
I'm trying to figure out how to contact Secrest to see if she is willing to share any info or put me in touch with her sources. However, the book is 15 years old and her sources were elderly even then, so...
It's all sort of funny when you think about it. Fox has a reputation...deserved no doubt...for being a thief. Yet Martin Goodman ripped off Joe Simon & Jack Kirby...and he got Jack again in the 60s. We all know what DC did to Siegel and Shuster. Could Fox have been any worse? And had Fox not so totally rubbed Simon the wrong way couldn't he have ended up publishing Captain America? And how might that single super-star in his hands altered the fate of his company, the history of comics, and his own reputation?
As to a photo of Fox himself...unless he somehow got an exemption denied to everyone else in the USA...there HAS to be one attached to his passport records! Unfortunately only records before 1925 are available online so they have to be ordered. They are public records and can be purchased...but all you get are photocopies, the snapshot attached is very small, and the cost is steep at $150.
Still, if we can gather up a handful of curious people and pool the costs. I've attached pre-1925 passport images for Victor's mother Bessie, to give you an idea what we might hope for.
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I don't have anything to add. I just want to mention that I'd totally read Crimes by Cats.
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Wow! Thanks for all the info David!
And I'd be willing to help with costs if you can find a group to help pay for the photo.
Alter-Ego magazine might be interested in something like this.
Hehehe, I love that alternate history idea of Capt. America at Fox.
"I want an explosion on the third panel of each page dammit! I don't care if Bucky is asleep in the tent - Blow it up!"
So that photo with Celestine Fuchs - it might well be The Victor Fox...
I stumbled across it in a simple Google Image Search but it didn't come with any real info.
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I'm guessing you likely saw the NY Times page from November 1, 1917 right?
Debt decision again World Costume Corp and Victor S Fox vs Mr I. Eisfeidt for $321.95.
Also found with Google search. I have a pdf of the page if needed.
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That one made me laugh. Pennies compared to the debts he'd ring up later!
I'm kind of waiting till my taxes are done till I lay out any cash...freelance was spotty so I didn't pay quarterlies, but I'm afraid I might owe a bit.
Phantom Lady book looks neat. Makes me wonder what Freddie Wertham would have said about the last book I worked on!
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj9/o0oBoogieo0o/469004_10150606815688034_128774243033_9447977_508659901_o.jpg
I've attached a pdf of the first chapter of the Sondheim bio to this post...Fox family info on pages 7 & 8, if I remember correctly.
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Well, I thought I attached a pdf but apparently not. Giving it another try but not sure now if it will work. Pdf listed as allowed file type so I'm not sure if it's the site or me.
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It worked
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You wanna picture of Victor Fox .. how mucha you play me for picture of Victor Fox???
I am just talking about "Yoc's picture"
Which can be found here
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090756356877218?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090756356877218?banner=pwa)
First thing is Fuchs=Fox. So the two are related. I think there are two Victors father and son???
Exhibit a
Vic and Celestine Fox
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090925324881234?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090925324881234?banner=pwa)
He grows up to be ???
Exhibit b
Vic Fox
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091291773352562?banner=pwa
(https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091291773352562?banner=pwa)
Exhibit c
And then there is another Victor around but he looks too old
Victor & Aurea ?? _Treasure Island_Jun 15, 1940
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091233380527458?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394091233380527458?banner=pwa)
Exhibit d
Here they are when they were younger with Celestine
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090907474451330?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449/5394090907474451330?banner=pwa)
Anyway there are quite a few photos (including "Yocs") from Margaret Kearns
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449?banner=pwa
(https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums/5394090647055324449?banner=pwa)
And they were put up by Larry Donohue
https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums?banner=pwa (https://plus.google.com/photos/105472361420541432574/albums?banner=pwa)
I hope this helps people sort it one or another I am confused now
Regards,
Mark
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Thanks very much David.
Not much at all on Victor in the Sondheim bio but still an interesting bit of history to fill in some blanks.
Wow, thanks as well Mark! David, do these names match anything in the census materials you found?
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I don't think there is any connection with that group of photos and "the" Victor S. Fox.
I guess it's Kosher (pardon the pun) to post a couple of photos from the Sondheim book...Mariene Fox, Janet Fox (standing, Stephen Sondheim's mother), and mother Bessie.
The second, father Joseph.
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Thanks David!
A shame Mark's photos weren't the guy but there might be some relation no?
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Note that there is a history of Fox and Fox comics in the new Matt Baker book. Not sourced there, but I expect one could either ask, or
find the info online. My copy is in storage,as I move, but it should cover from his WW1
days supplying uniforms until his Cuba racetrack days. The book itself is a wonderful collection of material about and from Matt Baker,
and includes JVJ's talking about "Ace Baker" and who he really was.
As for a photo ... oh well...
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I'll have to look at the Baker book...for more reasons than one.
One of the more intriguing things I've stumbled upon is a record of Fox flying from Libson to NYC in 1949. What the hell was Fox doing in Portugal? Could it somehow be related to the business in Cuba?
Also, it is the reason why I know Fox had a passport. Didn't need one to travel to Canada or Mexico until post 9/11. But for Europe, always.
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Thanks for the pointer Steve - I'll have to snag that Baker book as well.
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Is it "Matt Baker: The Art of Glamour" that we're talking about? It's the most recent book on Baker I can find on Amazon.
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We've all got a little Victor Fox in us to one extent or another. So I'm in no position to judge him, particularly since I didn't know him personally.
I'll just say that after reading the few accounts of the man (and seeing some of the comics he produced), my general impression of him is... if Victor Fox could make money selling Bibles he would, but he couldn't, so he didn't.
And that's it, end of story... that's all there was to the man IMO.
A rather sad, one dimensional character... and an anti-climatic conclusion to my interest in him as an historical figure in comicdom. There are a lot of people like him out in the world... and always will be.
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I'd say Drusilla hit it on the head. If he could make a buck selling uniforms it was uniforms. It it was stocks it was stocks...even if they weren't legit. If it was comic books or the comicscope, fine. If it was Kooba Cola, all the better.
He was certainly an operator. I think getting his hands of a bunch of confiscated ships...with basically no money down...was a pretty impressive trick.
I'm interested because of the lives and careers he touched. He brought Joe Simon into the industry. He brought in Jack. He was the first client for Will Eisner.
One assumes they would have all found their way in anyway. But not at the same time, not at the same place.
Certainly history would have been very different if Jack & Joe never partnered.
I think what has intrigued me is simply the shortage of solid facts about him despite his presence at key points in comic history...and the fun of trying to unravel a mystery.
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I don't begrudge an man making a buck, especially back then in that era - but PAY your artists and suppliers. Praying on rookie artists who didn't know better was despicable.
Fox did give a lot of big names their first breaks but I have the feeling if you could draw a stick figure he would have hired you.
Frankly I've always felt far, far more sorry for 'The Major.' Maj. Malcolm Wheeler-Nicholson in much the same tight spot as Fox, he at least tried to pay his artists and the way he was fleeced out of National Comics was criminal. Perhaps legal but still a moral crime IMO. Fox was no worse than Donenfeld and Liebowitz, just less successful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Wheeler-Nicholson
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I'd say Drusilla hit it on the head. If he could make a buck selling uniforms it was uniforms. It it was stocks it was stocks...even if they weren't legit. If it was comic books or the comicscope, fine. If it was Kooba Cola, all the better.
Though keep in mind, it's one in a thousand business owners/CEOs that are remotely different. Nobody prior to 1980 started a comic book company with the intent of bringing wonderful ideas to the masses. Very few people start any company with any loftier idea, at the core, than not having to work nine-to-five. And to do that, you go where the money is, wherever it is.
Except Kooba. That was genius. Advertise, and if someone actually orders it, find someone who makes soda or sell the brand.
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And of course we don't really know the whole truth about Fox's business practices. He was in business nearly a decade and a half. He must have paid somebody.
At least some of Fox's bad reputation comes from Will Eisner's claim that Fox stiffed him for refusing to perjure himself. Well, that story has a huge hole it now. Eisner did testify as Fox wanted...therefore no reason for Fox to withhold payment to get even.
So if Fox did indeed not pay up, maybe he flat out didn't have the money. Or maybe he did pay but only in part. If one part of Eisner's story doesn't hold up then in fairness the whole thing is in doubt. In any event, Iger was willing to work with Fox a few years later...so who knows what happened?
And after 1952, what was the downside of badmouthing Fox? Talk too much about a bad experience with Donenfeld or Goodman on the other hand and you could be blowing future assignments.
Yoc pretty much nailed it...Fox wasn't necessarily worse than his bigger competitors. We will probably never know for sure.
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In 'Iger's Comic Kingdom', admittedly a horrible book for twisting facts, Iger skips the entire DC case but does mention he had to sue Fox for non payment later in the 40s. So there is yet another Fox case out there somewhere. I sure wish Fox had to take the stand in the DC case. Getting his birth-date nailed down for sure would be nice. I would imagine his draft card says as well.
Iger and Fox seemed to share the same mindset on money so I'm not surprised they worked together again. "The devil you know, etc"
-Yoc
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Fox did take the stand in the Wonderman suit:
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-iger-fox.html
Birthdate? The date in general usage is accurate:
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Wonderful! Thanks again David.
My mistake - they never asked Fox for the birthdate or address like they did Eisner. Thanks so much for the info you've been sharing!
:)
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In 'Iger's Comic Kingdom', admittedly a horrible book for twisting facts, Iger skips the entire DC case but does mention he had to sue Fox for non payment later in the 40s. So there is yet another Fox case out there somewhere.
I wouldn't get your hopes up, Yoc. It's entirely possible, of course, but the majority of lawsuits (as I recall) are settled out of court, and so wouldn't be recorded anywhere. It's usually only when a judge gets involved that they start writing things down.
Something like Wonder Man could be worth fighting for, if it made even a few percent of what Superman did. A few hundred bucks owed to an artist he might need to work with again later, though...?
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Yes, true enough John.
Mainly the point was Iger knew Fox and was still willing to risk him as a client at least once after being forced to take legal action against him for non payment.
We also are aware Fox was trying to target Eisner-Iger artists to work for him directly.
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So out of idle curiosity I decided to google the address...104 Radford Boulevard, Nottingham...from the Victor Fox birth record.
Much to my surprise, I came up with a newspaper clipping...from the Edinburgh Gazette for April 20, 1894...for a BANKRUPTCY for Fox Brothers, jewelers, trading at that address.
I'd wondered why on earth they pulled up stakes so quickly a second time after settling in England. That seems likely to be part of the answer.
And, it appears, an apple did not fall so far from its tree in the case of Victor.
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Isn't that interesting? Good thinking to check the address.
You're doing a great job tracking these things down.
:)
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... I'm interested because of the lives and careers he touched. He brought Joe Simon into the industry. He brought in Jack. He was the first client for Will Eisner.
One assumes they would have all found their way in anyway. But not at the same time, not at the same place.
Certainly history would have been very different if Jack & Joe never partnered. ...
God does indeed work in mysterious ways.
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I asked Roy Thomas (!) at TwoMorrows about it and he said:
"Hi Roy,
Thanks, but no... never seen or heard of a photo of publisher Victor Fox.
Roy T."
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I bet he'd love to share a photo if we were to dig one up.
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I've got to take a bit of a break from Mr. Fox while I work on a couple of scripts for an upcoming GN collection but after that is out of the way I'm going to work on the photo thing. Not sure why...but it has become the mountain I have to climb.
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Sounds good David. Good luck on the GN collections.
See you when you get back. :)
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Still backed up a bit but came upon something I wanted to share.
Info from Fox's listing in Who's Who. Most interesting is that we have here an exact date for his marriage and a handy listing of various Victor Fox corporate entities. Among those entities
Renard Investments should ring a bell for those of us who have read Eisner's Dreamer.
I think this also helps put to rest the suggestion I've seen in a few places that Fox attended college...specifically Brown...for a year. Surely he would have shared that info in this sort of publication. Further, in the 1940 census (have I shared that?) Fox himself reported his highest completed education as a single year of high school.
Back to work!
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Thanks David! Yes, that Renard name sure rings a bell... Key Industries is a new name to me.
And no, the 1940 census stuff hasn't been shared here yet AFAIK.
Thanks again for the info!
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Trying to post the 1940 census for Fox but the image file is too big. Is there any way around that?
For the time being I'll share highlights of the info.
Fox is on line 24, a little past halfway down. In column 14 Fox indicates his education ended with one year of high school, which I think puts to rest the rumor that he attended a year at Brown. Though I would not be at all surprised if it was Fox himself who started that story.
Column 32, his income...which would be interesting to know...instead of a number contains only the cryptic note "over." Just guessing here, but since there are no numbers of more than four digits that may simply mean $10k or more.
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Thanks David!
You can always email it to me and I can post it here for you.
Just click on the envelope below my monkey avatar if you like.
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My earliest trace of the family Fox...1891 UK Census for Nottingham. Also, just for the heck of it, an advertisement from the 1894 Nottingham Directory. So far 1894 is my latest confirmed date for the family in the U.K.
With the birth Frances occurring in Russia in 1885 & the 1891 U.K census we narrow the date for migration from Russia to 1885 - 1891.
1898 is the first listing for Joseph Fox in the Fall River MA directory so that shortens the window for immigration to the U.S. to 1894 - 1898. Joseph Fox in his citizenship papers (which I will scan when I get the chance) dates his arrival to August 1896 but as yet I haven't found ship manifest to confirm that.
P.S. My friends think this Fox thing is a REALLY weird hobby!
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Very cool!
Thanks again David. I love all the stuff you've found.
Tell your friends there are some out there just eating up everything you've unearthed!
I bet Roy Thomas would welcome a bio for Alter-Ego or perhaps an update to Comicartville's Fox article?
http://www.comicartville.com/victorfox.htm
It'd be a nice article on someone basically unknown beyond his reputation to most collectors.
Especially what he looked like!
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I'm planning of collating all this into an article when things lighten up a bit on this end. As I said, I think I'll be able to find a photo but there will be a time lag for processing.
Plus I've got to wait until I figure out how much I owe Uncle Sam this April 15!
Here's some funny Fox errata...a World Astrology Magazine cover with a dire warning for us all, and a funny story from the Pittsburgh Press. I think the Press story was reprinted from the Wall Street Journal.
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Yeah, tax time - lots of fun. *sigh*
Very much looking forward to seeing your article some day David.
Please be sure to let us all know here where and when it will appear!
Thanks for the latest. I recall reading about this run-in with the AAG about poor stock tips.
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From a directory of CA real estate brokers and salesmen from 1951. Unfortunately it's just a snip from Google books but this would fit with the time frame of Fox's final departure from the comic book scene. The entire book does not appear to be available online anywhere, but I'm not at all sure it would have any more information.
And Fox's widow and daughter both eventually ended up in CA, though they were in CT at least into the early 1960s.
Just a possibility, though I've no real idea how to dig deeper into this one.
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Interesting!
Thanks David.
:)
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Geez...has it been 5 months?
Things have been quiet on the Victor Fox front but I've found a new tidbit. A summary of Fox's 1918 military service. It gives his posting, Camp Humphreys, Virginia, where he trained in an engineer regiment; his dates of service, July 26 to December 24; and his rank, Private. the last is significant as it dispels the rumors that he may have been an officer.
Funny...this thread may actually be the best Victor Fox resource in the world.
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Wow, thanks for another wonderful piece in the Fox puzzle!
Yeah, fun how this topic has evolved. :)
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Thanks for the history lesson, guys! I've enjoyed reading these 5 pages and going off on the tangents in the links. I've never had any particular interest in Victor Fox or the comics he produced and never knew about any of the topics discussed here. As an outside observer though I thought I'd toss in one small tidbit as it appears that no one has picked up on it (or at least I didn't see it in the thread). It was mentioned that Eisner used the name Reynard as a thin disguise for Fox in a story and that Fox himself had a company called Renard Investments. Someone speculated (I think) that Eisner perhaps knew of the investment company and hence perhaps used that as the source for the Reynard character name. I'd like to point out in case no one else was aware that Reynard is the name of a classical character from European animal stories: Reynard the Fox. I find it oh so ironic that the name Reynard was later dredged up and associated with Victor Fox. The fox Reynard from the old French stories was a wily character used as a rhetorical "wicked" moral structure for children. He was like Wile E. Coyote in some regards, always with the grand schemes to catch the Roadrunner, but with nothing but failure in the end because of his deceitfulness.
I'm sure Eisner was familiar with the animal character when he wrote his story and obviously Reynard was known to Victor Fox as it would be simply too coincidental for him to name his own company Renard Investments and not know. I have to say though that perhaps the subtleties of Reynard the Fox were lost on Victor Fox. Or, perhaps, he knew EXACTLY what Reynard represented?
Thanks again, guys!
Greg
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Thanks Greg. Renard Investments is mentioned in one of the clippings somewhere.
There is one site now showing a picture of Victor Fox but no explanation of it's origins.
http://www.comicvine.com/victor-fox/4040-49436/
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Is anyone a member of ComicVine who could send him a question asking the source?
Stardust-Yoc. Yocdust.
Thanks Greg. Renard Investments is mentioned in one of the clippings somewhere.
There is one site now showing a picture of Victor Fox but no explanation of it's origins.
http://www.comicvine.com/victor-fox/4040-49436/
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I am a member of Comic vine and also the one who posted (and cropped) the photo. I had been searching a bit and came across the same set of Fuchs-Fox family pictures that appears earlier in this thread. The Photo I used is from that same group appearing toward the bottom of the page and was taken in California circa 1940 if I recall. I cannot find the original full size Image which I believe included an much older Celeste Fuchs on his arm. I am not sure how I concluded this was him this was back in May but I was pretty sure at the time it may have been tagged Victor S. Fox hope that helps. Will/try to find post the full image.
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Hi Turok.
I'm fuzzy on this but I believe David might have already figured out that was 'our' Fox. David, correct me if I'm wrong.
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https://picasaweb.google.com/105472361420541432574/PicturesFromMargaretKearns?noredirect=1#5394091233380527458 (https://picasaweb.google.com/105472361420541432574/PicturesFromMargaretKearns?noredirect=1#5394091233380527458)
It is amongst quite a few others https://picasaweb.google.com/105472361420541432574/PicturesFromMargaretKearns (https://picasaweb.google.com/105472361420541432574/PicturesFromMargaretKearns)
I think there are two different Victors in this collection.
It is quite simple if there is a Celestine floating around the family then you have your man if not you don't!
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David found 'our' Victor in the census and could tell us.
I was never able to spot him.
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I don't think the Celestine Fox/Fuchs pictures figure into Victor Samuel Fox's family tree. 1940 finds Victor in Manhattan, sister Frances Persky in Ashville NC, sister Janet Sondheim (mother of Stephen!) also in Manhattan, sister Marianne Stutz in Hartford CT. Parents Joseph & Bessie are both deceased by that point.
None of the names associated with these photos are attached to any members of the Fox family tree that I have discovered. And given how distant Fox appears to be from his own family that even if he had some relatives in CA it's tough to picture Victor paying them a visit.
I can't guarantee that is not Victor Fox of Fox Publishing but I think it highly unlikely. And certainly unproven. I think that a well meaning poster got excited and jumped the gun.
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Thanks for clearing it up David.
We still wait in hopes of someday seeing such photos our 'our' Fox.
-Yoc
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Still no photo of Victor...but I have found what appear to be photos of Fox's wife and daughter, apparently circa 1983. They are from a public family tree at Ancestry.com and the info in the tree matches the known info about Carolyn & Victoria.
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Congrats on finding these David!
Very exciting stuff.
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Now I've just heard about this photo up on Comicvine that someone has posted there suggesting it's Victor Fox.
No proof, etc is offered so it should be taken with a large helping of salt.
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/6/69951/3056871-gfhjjkk.png)From here -
http://www.comicvine.com/victor-fox/4040-49436/
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The same site shares a lot of other pictures of 'comics gods'. Lev Gleason and some others are totally new to me.
http://www.comicvine.com/profile/turoksonofstone/lists/comic-book-gods/18620/
Here's a link for one they say is Fletcher Hanks of Stardust fame -
http://www.comicvine.com/fletcher-hanks/4040-56582/
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Yoc I sent you a PM with a link to the page that the picture was posted on.
Hope that will help some.
Geo
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Hi Geo,
Yeah, that's the first one I shared above.
Thanks for the interesting link!
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That photo has been around for a while. If you track down the whole set it comes from the rest of the names don't match the Fox family and the location is wrong as well.
Highly unlikely it is "the" Victor Fox.
Have written a few sources where there might be a photo but have not yet had any success.
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I thought as much. The Fletcher Hanks is one I'd love to know if it was him.
Good luck on the sources Dave, really would love to see something!
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Hi Gang,
Just got back from doing some digging on Ancenstry.com and learned a few things new to me. Some might be old news but I might as well list them all here.
Victor S. Fox
Born: Apr. 13, 1893 in England.
Father: Joseph Mother: Bessie
Wife: Carolyne B Fox Married: 1943
Listed on an Air Canada flight from Toronto in 1941 as single, 5' 7", black hair, brown eyes. No distiguishing marks. (This is not when he immigrated.)
Lived in Rockridge, Conn. in 1947.
Possibly died May 14, 1953 and intered in the St. Paul Luterian Cemetary, Red Hill, Montgomery County, PA
I'm not 100% on this last one. It's a veteran's cemetary
David says this was not our Fox.
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If he first came to the US in 1941 when he was 38, and that is not clear from your data, it doesn't seem likely he'd be buried in a veterans cemetery, as it seems unlikely he'd have served in the US military.
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I think Jon is misinterpreting part of Yoc's post. That 1941 air manifest is indeed THE Victor Fox but it's not his immigration to the US. The Fox family arrived prior to 1898, though I don't think I've been able to find the exact date of immigration.
The Montgomery PA Victor Fox, however, is not our guy. Our Victor died July 3, 1957 in Greenwich, Connecticut. I believe I have the name of the cemetery somewhere but I can't seem to find it right now.
Fox did spend some time in the military circa WW1, July 26 - December 24 1918, but was never deployed overseas. He may have avoided service for a time because he had a company that produced military uniforms.
And the maiden name of his mother is not Rosenberg. It is something along the lines of Duchansky; the spelling varies. I believe that she had relatives in the Fall River MA area, where the Foxes originally settled, as did Joseph.
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Thanks for the corrections David. I meant to clarify it but forgot to later.
While Ancestry.com showed me a lot I sure wish they made it easier to concentrate a search down once you feel you have the correct person. Our Fox never shows a S.I.N. number, etc to help zero in on. The second Fox burried in Montgomery PA kept creeping up in my search attempts. Oh well, at least the 1941 air manifest was correct and new to me.
I had not much luck at all with my searhes on Ogden Whitney. :(
-Yoc
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Frustrating, isn't it? I'm two years in on my search for a photo, I think.
Maybe someday.
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Have you guys seen David Saunders' article on Victor S Fox:
http://www.pulpartists.com/Fox-P.html
David does his own research and is pretty good regarding accuracy.
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The info is solid but the photo is wrong; it's a different Victor Fox from a west coast Fox family. The source is here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/105472361420541432574/PicturesFromMargaretKearns
Someone picked this up ages ago and it has circulated erroneously since.
One interesting fact Saunders missed: Fox's sister Janet is the mother of composer Stephen Soundheim, making him Victor's nephew.
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Thanks mopee,
I knew the site but hadn't seen this before now. Wow, a lot of dots get nicely connected.
If only the photo was correct...
-Yoc
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If the guy was such a crook was he ever arrested? A booking photo somewhere? Only half kidding. Anyway even back then business crooks didn't often wind up in custody.
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After my previous note I read the extensive biography and saw Fox was arrested numerous times. Surely the police took a photo...is there some way to access archives of old police photos?
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With his many legal troubles I have a hard time believing his mug never made it into the papers. I haven't come up with it but maybe it's there someplace.
There are photos of Fox's wive & daughter earlier in this thread. If I recall there are pictures of his parents & sisters posted as well.
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It was only after I posted the link that I noticed the Fox photo had already been dis-proven.
I guess Feldstein caricature from EC's Modern Love #8 that Yoc posted is the closest we've
come to knowing what Victor Fox looked like, at least until an actual photo turns up.
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That photo will hang around forever, until a real one comes along.
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Did anyone here try tracking down that 1940s Fox Time magazine interview (I think it was in 47 or 48), the one where he made that (in)famous "people are idiots" comment... might be a photo associated with it with Fox in it.
Perhaps the next time one of you get out to the LOC you could just take a quick look?... Please, pretty please. :)
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Was able to track down the text for the Time Magazine article. Was published in the July 12, 1948 edition. It's a minor piece and after reading it I think it highly unlikely a photo of Fox is there. In fact, the article doesn't even specifically credit Fox as the speaker.
http://web.a.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail/detail?sid=5c9a37b0-f81c-4e30-ba5d-be991542a8c0%40sessionmgr4003&vid=0&hid=4209&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=f6h&AN=54779450
Code for the Comics
Critic John Mason Brown recently called comic books "the marijuana of the nursery." Psychiatrist Fredric Wertham ranked them among the chief "contributing causes of juvenile delinquency." Disgusted by the sex, violence and crime they were peddling, druggists in South Bend refused last week to sell comic books in their stores.
Last week, bending before this blast, 14 major comic-book publishers (combined monthly circ.: 14 million) agreed to a cleanup campaign of their own. They set up a voluntary association similar to the movies' Johnston office, adopted a code of ethics for comic books, and got ready to name a czar. Among the code's provisions: 1) no "sexy, wanton comics"; 2) no glorifying of crime; 3) no "scenes of sadistic torture"; 4) no "vulgar and obscene language"; 5) no glamorizing of divorce; 6) no religious or race ridicule.
Critics of the comics knew that strict enforcement of these conditions would put many of the 270 U.S. titles out of business. So did the publishers who refused to join in the cleanup. (Defending sexy and sadistic comic magazines put out by Fox Features Syndicate, one of its executives explained his publishing philosophy last week: "There are more morons than people, you know.")
By the use of a "clean comics" seal and other pressures, the clean-comics group hopes to force the holdouts to abide by the code. The association's president, Phil Keenan (of Hillman Periodicals, publisher of Crime Detective, Real Clue, Western Fighters), warned the public not to expect overnight miracles. Because of the early deadlines, said he, improvements "may not be evident for months."
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Thanks David.
I had heard it was an unnamed Fox executive in some book. Nice to read the whole article.
:)
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I assume it was Fox or Bob Farrell. I don't think there were a lot of "executives" at Fox.
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I have to confess that I too tracked down that Time article when I first heard of it... what is now several years ago. This was back when Time let you browse through their online archive for free. The online archive was text, and as you've listed it here, it is a rather brief blurb at that, now that I think about it. But you never know, the actual magazine article might've had a photo. Too bad it wasn't covered in LIFE. :)
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Fox would have had to have had a passport or military service photos. Both likely protected for privacy reasons.
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It's been years since this topic was active!
I just today randomly stumbled across this quite amazing blog which did a fantastic job of following the paper trail Victor Fox left during his life. It's PACKED with interesting info of Fox's shenanigans before staring the Fox comics line and then tells us what he did after he gave up on comics. It's quite obvious he was certainly not worried about breaking laws when it came to making a buck.
Alex Jay's Tenth Letter of the Alphabet:
http://alphabettenthletter.blogspot.com/2018/04/comics-victor-s-fox-businessman-and.html
I just wish Alex had shared a photo of the notorious Mr Fox in this!
And beside this amazing entry Alex's blog has an incredible collection of entries on the lesser lights behind comics focusing on letters and production designers as well as trademarks and other fun stuff if you are into things like that. I highly recommend you check it out.
NOTE - Alex sites this wonderful entry on the Pulp Arts site as a source. It might be easier to follow Fox's actions on it than Alex's blog but this one doesn't go into as much detail once Fox stops publishing comics. Both are very worthy of a read if Fox is of interest to you.
https://www.pulpartists.com/Fox-P.html
-Yoc