Digital Comic Museum
DCM Download Site => What you can upload => Topic started by: Alessandro Bottero on February 10, 2011, 04:23:58 PM
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hi. another of my questions. :)
i saw in wikipedia that JOhn Buscema did 11 issues on Dell Four Colours, and precisely
DellFour Color:#684: Helen of Troy (1956), #762: The Sharkfighters; #775: Sir Lancelot and Brian, #794: The Count of Monte Cristo, #910: The Vikings, #927: Luke Short's Top Gun (adapted from novel Test Pit by Luke Short), #944: The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, #1006: Hercules, #1077, 1130: The Deputy, #1139: Spartacus
they were comic book adaptions of some movies from 1956 till 1960.
Since the Dell-Four colours situations is very complex, i was wondering.....do you believe these issues are in Public Domain, or not?
they were interesting, because they were Buscema pre-Marvel work, and they show some hints of the future works (particolarly the Vikings and Hercules)
if someone could help me, i was happy, and i could think translating some of these issues in my upcoming Project Golden Age.
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Even if the comics' copyrights were not renewed, I'm pretty sure the comics would not be in the public domain if the copyrights on the movies themselves had been renewed.
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At this time it's been very hard to know for sure which issues of the Dells are in PD status or not. Maybe at a later date a lot of these will be cleared up one way or the other. So at this time we are putting a hold on most if not all Dell issues just to be safe.
Geo
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i saw in wikipedia that JOhn Buscema did 11 issues on Dell Four Colours, and precisely
DellFour Color:#684: Helen of Troy (1956), #762: The Sharkfighters; #775: Sir Lancelot and Brian, #794: The Count of Monte Cristo, #910: The Vikings, #927: Luke Short's Top Gun (adapted from novel Test Pit by Luke Short), #944: The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, #1006: Hercules, #1077, 1130: The Deputy, #1139: Spartacus
they were comic book adaptions of some movies from 1956 till 1960.
Since the Dell-Four colours situations is very complex, i was wondering.....do you believe these issues are in Public Domain, or not?
they were interesting, because they were Buscema pre-Marvel work, and they show some hints of the future works (particolarly the Vikings and Hercules)
I recently picked up a copy of Dell's adaptation of The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad and its being a sword and sorcery story makes it a real precursor to Buscema's later work on Conan.
Best
Joe
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Even if the comics' copyrights were not renewed, I'm pretty sure the comics would not be in the public domain if the copyrights on the movies themselves had been renewed.
I'm pretty sure one doesn't affect the other. The adaptations are different from the movie. Always condensed and sometimes at variance from the movie. This is one reason why they had their own separate copyright in the first place. Different, if similar material, requiring a copyright all its own.
Best
Joe
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It depends, Joe, on what exactly one plans to do. If you're burning to DVD to sell, then you're (probably) OK because you're only interested in the public domain work itself. However, if you plan to use the adaptation within another work, you're now creating a (second-hand) derivative of the original, and "underlying rights" are very important in many courts.
That's why you can sell Fleischer Superman DVDs but can't market your own line of Superman comics based on the cartoons.
Oh. And remember the "probably" back up top? Just because you see it as "only reselling the public domain work," it doesn't mean that the other copyright owner and the court won't decide that the adaptation can't have existed without the underlying copyrighted work...
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It depends, Joe, on what exactly one plans to do. If you're burning to DVD to sell, then you're (probably) OK because you're only interested in the public domain work itself. However, if you plan to use the adaptation within another work, you're now creating a (second-hand) derivative of the original, and "underlying rights" are very important in many courts.
That's why you can sell Fleischer Superman DVDs but can't market your own line of Superman comics based on the cartoons.
Oh. And remember the "probably" back up top? Just because you see it as "only reselling the public domain work," it doesn't mean that the other copyright owner and the court won't decide that the adaptation can't have existed without the underlying copyrighted work...
John, I'm quite familiar with what you mean by underlying rights. I've been a film researcher for a couple of decades and copyright and PD status comes up a good bit when dealing with old films. I've read up on some of the cases as they pertain to films. The courts are by no means consistent when it comes to underlying rights.
Still I understand why you guys are hesitant to perhaps host some titles that seem to be PD as I have seen examples in the film world where some of the big film corporations have scared off people who have dealt with PD items by claiming some variants of the underlying copyright argument. Most small companies will immediately back off because, understandably, they just don't have the big bucks to fight these corporate giants.
Best
Joe
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I didn't mean entirely in the context of this site, Joe (though, yes, if it was my risk, I'd probably be more liberal with my definition of public domain), but rather for whatever Alessandro's purposes are in the end. Printing a translation carries more liability than simply reprinting, because you may translating protected material in the process. And as you point out, it's a crap-shoot as to what your jurisdiction believes about underlying rights.
Which is why it's important to point out (again) that none of us are lawyers. Talking to an IP lawyer now will let you know what's workable in your neck of the woods, and it'll probably be far cheaper than losing an unexpected copyright case in a lot of situations.
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i don't deny my goal is to publish some Buscema's PD work, and i already found some wonderful story in the DCM library. My question about Buscema's "movie comic books" (so to speak) was made beacuse these stories echoes (maybe more than others) the future Marvel's works of Big John, and this gives them an historical value.
I know you can't give me an "official" answer, but i take your opinion in high regard, and it's always intersting to learn something more about PD and copyright stuff.
for example i discovered, as a fact, the italian law allow me to use as PD, creative works wich are PD under foreign laws (such U.S.A., or Canada).
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Did you know, Alessandro,
that Buscema BEGAN his career at "Marvel" in 1948? My favorite JB work is at Orbit/Our Publishing in the very early 1950s.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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thanks jim.
Buscema's western in The Westerner (orbit) is real good, but since in Italy Buscema is know for his Conan, Avengers and "marvel post-1960" works, something like The Vikings, or Simbad, has a bigger appeal.
anyway all the stories sci-fi and horror for Adventures into the Unknown and Forbidden Worlds are real good.
This "Buscema topic" is the "living proof" of my theory: Golden Age comics is full of hidden gems. So far (i'm speaking for Italian comic book readers) Golden Age was Timely-Marvel and National-DC Comics, and nothing else, because we had an italian translation of SOME of the Captain America, Superman, Batman Golden Age stories.
but outside this almost no one knows anything at all about Quality, Fiction house, Fox, Dell, Fawcett, and so on.
why? Because no one translated these stories in Italy. no one read them, no one know they exsist. (i'm speakling for the "majority". there are few good critics wich know this field)
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I like his romance and the Wanted art from Orbit, too, Allesandro,
and he actually did a few freelance jobs for Atlas in the early '50s and for Pre-Marvel in 1959-60.
His ACG stuff IS great and very under-promoted and -appreciated.
What is hard for me to understand is how ANYBODY in this day and age can NOT know about all of these GA companies. There is DCM, GAC, reprint books, articles, Alter Ego, the Price Guide, and so much more that for any fans not to know about GA companies besides Marvel and DC seems to me to be a deliberate kind of ignorance.
Those Italian fans and everyone else should know by now that there are many GA great artists and companies and comics out there. If they don't, then we as comic book historians and fans have done a pretty lousy job of promoting them, and the fans haven't been paying much attention, for the last forty years.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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That's the same old discussion, isn't it, Jim? If you don't already know what you're looking for, if you don't even know there's something TO look for, how do you find it?
Even with a physical source like Alter Ego, you need to know that it exists and has value. Prior to hearing about this run (and leading with Infinity, Inc., helped), I had never considered "fanzines" to be worth any more than the hand-stapled mimeographed conspiracy theory 'zines I used to see in low-rent shops back in the '80s.
Plus, look at it this way: How many television or radio shows have you enjoyed where you can name everybody who ever worked on the project, their source material, and so forth? Most are content to merely consume.
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There is truth in what you say, John,
and the challenge has ALWAYS been WHERE to collate the data from millions of man-hours of research so that it IS available? Jerry Bails and Hames Ware's Who's Who of American Comic Books in the early '70s was a start. Then with the advent of the Internet and the on-line WW version in 1999, it's been relatively easy to get at an overview of any artists' GA career. When you add in Google, Wikipedia, and the GCD, it's even more accessible. All you have to do is ASK a question.
Perhaps it's the unquestioned life of most fans that bothers me. Because, if you liked a John Buscema Conan story, it bewilders me that you wouldn't at least do a Google search on him or look him up in Wikipedia. There you would discover at least a capsule history of his career. Go down to "References" and you'd "discover" the Grand Comics Database. All it takes is wanting to know.
The same can be said of TV and radio these days. If I WANTED to know the cast and credits, they are easily discoverable. One would expect that the desire to get more of a good thing (i.e. John Buscema art) would lead people to these resources. According to Allessandro, it hasn't, and I find that discouraging - as I've spent the last 40 years of my life trying to encourage just that.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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Well, consider them "casual fans," rather than fanatics. Or fans of the "literature" over the "art," which is a camp I'm mostly in. I enjoy the books, but...usually don't care who the people are behind them, or at least, not in relation to the comic itself. Honestly, I was probably reading comics for almost fifteen years before realizing that the names on the splash page might have some utility, and I was still baffled when Image started up, because who could possibly care that a bunch of artists moved out on their own...?
But still, that shouldn't be that discouraging. Fans (despite moves by Marvel and DC to the contrary) aren't a stagnant pool of readers. They wax and wane in their interests, and enter and exit throughout their lives. You might catch them the next time they pass through. That a baseball fan doesn't know that the Dodgers came out of Brooklyn (to pick a real-world example) isn't a huge failure, I don't think. You might be able to make a case for drivers who don't understand Newtonian motion, though...
Now, if you must feel discouraged, aim it at the people who publish books and web pages without checking their asserted "facts." If you're positioning yourself as an expert on a topic or a character (I don't really want to single out a Two-Morrows book, but the Blue Beetle book read like it was tossed off over lunch), not doing your homework shows a complete lack of ability and ethic. We need to fix them.
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I am in the same camp as Jon. I have a different problem than most people. I get bored with too much of the same thing. You will not find me getting a collection of any particular artists work. I prefer variety even of uneven quality. Too much exposure and I start liking it less. Yes I am strange but yes I am strange :(|( Al Williamson or Russ Manning might be exceptions, but I do not want to get a collection of their work and take of chance of not liking him as much. So far I have not seen anything of theirs that was sub par. My tastes also change regularly. Don't ask me my favorite movie or musician or group because I like what I like at the time.
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"Casual fans" it is, John.
It's funny just how different our experiences are. The very first comic I ever bought, I bought for the art and immediately wanted to know WHO drew it. It was an instantaneous artistic attraction. The story kept me coming back for more, but it was the art that hooked me. I can STILL remember later showing a coverless DC with a Frank Frazetta reprint in it to a comics friend of mine and being ASTONISHED that he didn't know who drew it. I honestly thought he was pulling my leg. I'm COMPLETELY on the visual side. Always have been.
And I have a deep and abiding interest in the history, too. Which is, as you point out, unusual. Still, one hopes that some few others will care, too. And, as you also point out, I AM discouraged by what passes for comics history in most cases - to the point that don't even read most of it. It just elevates my blood pressure. I should stay off that subject...
I think a better baseball analogy would be for a "fan" not to have heard of Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb or Willie Mays or Reggie Jackson. It's not a "huge failure" but it lessens their claim to being a fan.
I'm in perfect agreement with the "no favorites", narf,
I like way too many artists (both comic and musical) to ever limit myself in any way. You know how many comics I have - well think an equally diverse and extensive selection of music on my computer - nearly 38,000 songs in iTunes.
On the other hand, I can't get too much of any particular one. Unfortunately (or very fortunately - depending on how you look at it), I think I've seen almost all of Williamson's and Manning's comic work (though not their strip stuff, which I find somehow constrained and less-interesting). The new series of AW Sketchbooks from Flesk is a real and unexpected joy.
Personally, I hate to admit it, but I find most comic book stories to be exceedingly jejune and silly. It's the exceptions, when I find them, that are so very informative of the medium. I was looking at some Russ Manning Dale Evans from Dell the other day, and his artwork just MADE me read the story - which turned out to be decent. That's not a common experience for me, which is one reason why I much prefer just looking at the art.
Everyone here, I believe, is a comic reader, like you and John. I just don't fit into that category. I read them assiduously for about ten or fifteen years and then eventually out-grew them, I guess. I find it nearly impossible to approach a modern comic book as they are mostly visually repulsive to me. GAC and DCM are the perfect vehicles for both points of view. You guys get to read the old books that we can't afford and I don't have to look at the new stuff.
It Works out well for all of us.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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And I have a deep and abiding interest in the history, too. Which is, as you point out, unusual.
I've come to appreciate the history, probably through your exposure, but I don't really connect it to the comics themselves, oddly enough...
I like way too many artists (both comic and musical) to ever limit myself in any way. You know how many comics I have - well think an equally diverse and extensive selection of music on my computer - nearly 38,000 songs in iTunes.
iTunes (the software) bugs me to the point where I've never successfully used it. However, after a minor collapse in my house, I've been ripping my CD tracks while I figure out what to do with the...five hundred CDs. Maybe five of them are pop or rock, so...it's a weird collection. I feel your "pain."
Personally, I hate to admit it, but I find most comic book stories to be exceedingly jejune and silly.
Nothing to hate about it. Most of it IS garbage, the same as any field.
(Funny thing, I've never been fond of artists like Frazetta and Kubert. I understand the attraction intellectually, but their work just seems extremely busy to the point where it distracts from the storytelling it's supposed to cooperate in.)
I find it nearly impossible to approach a modern comic book as they are mostly visually repulsive to me. GAC and DCM are the perfect vehicles for both points of view. You guys get to read the old books that we can't afford and I don't have to look at the new stuff.
It Works out well for all of us.
The modern stuff doesn't do it for me, either, in any respect. I could make a looong list of problems, but I can't think of anything I've read produced in twenty years that made interested in buying the next issue. I try, every once in a while, but there's just so much that's uninteresting and technically poor. Outside of the paper, I mean, which is of absurdly high quality.
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(Funny thing, I've never been fond of artists like Frazetta and Kubert. I understand the attraction intellectually, but their work just seems extremely busy to the point where it distracts from the storytelling it's supposed to cooperate in.)
The modern stuff doesn't do it for me, either, in any respect. I could make a looong list of problems, but I can't think of anything I've read produced in twenty years that made interested in buying the next issue. I try, every once in a while, but there's just so much that's uninteresting and technically poor. Outside of the paper, I mean, which is of absurdly high quality.
Wow John, those statements might get you tarred and feathered in some places.
I know I've recommended them before but I highly suggest (and I believe OtherEric is a fan too) trying the first big story arc of the Fables series. Or the first tpb of "1001 Nights of Snowfall" which was a prequel to the series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1001_Nights_of_Snowfall
A great combo of story and artwork that hasn't let me down more than a couple times.
I truly hope that Jim will somehow produce a book or website that contains all the facts he's collected about comics creators/publishers someday. The thought it might be lost someday worries me.
-Yoc
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I have to agree with Jim on most of the art today. The style usually does not appeal to me.I will say some of the covers today are absolutely awesome. Zenoscope consistently wows me. . I have found a few stories worth reading. I have enjoyed the Kato series(s) more than the Green Hornet(s) which I have enjoyed. Executive Assistant Iris and Mystery Society were both good. A series that only made it one issue that I was looking forward to the next issue was Agon. Looked like it was going to be good scifi. I recently added John Carter to my pull list, I waited to see where it was going and after issue 4 decided to take the plunge. The new Mass Effect series seems like some promising scifi.
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i'm happy this topc turned in such an intersting argument.
what i think you missed is the not-english spoken fan "point of view".
it's true we can access to all kind of data and info about almost everything, but you must know what you want to search.
let's think about golden age.
here in Italy, as i already said, only SOME characters from golden age Marvel and DC has been published for a larger audience in the past 20 years.
and i know it very well, because i was theone wich tranlated the first two Superman Archives for the Italian Publisher Play Press, in 1994-1995.
we have the Simon-Kirby Captain America, some of the bob Kane batman & detective stories, and (but they are SIlver age) the Marvel Masterworks.
Probably in the '60 and in the '70 some horror stories, or even sci-fi and western ones had been translated, and published in some comic book series. but WITHOUT any info about publisher, or authors.
comic books were (and for some still are) a "child's thing" and didn't deserved infos.
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second part......
what i mean is....if i never saw, or knew Quality existed, and if no one reprint Quality stories, giving me the opportunity to see these stories for FIRST TIME, how could i know what to find, and where to find it? that's why i said "Golden age is generally unknown in Italy". Because if i say ACE, or AVON, o FOX, of FICTION, i'm fairly sure 90% of the comic book readers don't know what i'm saying. there are some good essay, even volumes, on Fawcett, or charlton, but they are aimed to a niche, with small print run, and mostly "convention distribution", if i am clear.
and one of the biggest issues was "where to find these stories, and how could i find a way to produce good reprint?". This is why i was so happy where i found this site. Because it make possible to spread these hidden tresures here.
it's been over 20 years i worked in italian comic field, and i love comic books. of all kinds, honestly. I love old comics , and i love new ones. and i strongly believe these stories has an unvaluable historical meaning, because they show the roots of today's best works.
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And those of us who scan them and put them up are happy to have them spread throughout Italy and the world. It makes all of our time and effort more worthwhile.