Digital Comic Museum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: tilliban on March 21, 2012, 01:49:20 PM
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And think of this: italian comics' publications are even worse, and they are tabloid size or more. Ugh. :)
The horror, the horror!
Keep up the fine work, vaillant, good to have you with us!
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I've split this into a new International Comics topic to allow scanners to talk about their scanners while the international crowd can enjoy their own topic here.
-Yoc
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@Tilliban: thank you. :)
Are you from Germany?
A little off-topic, but I’d like to try to post an example: this is an episode of "I ragazzi di Piazza Cinquecento" ("The Boys of Piazza Cinquecento"), a sort of italian-style "Little Wise Guys" adventure set in the streets of post-war ravaged Italy, from "Il Vittorioso", the first italian comics' publication not relying on foreign productions. It was published by A.V.E., a catholic publisher which wasn’t excessively bothered by the fascist regime because not directly involved in politics. Although early years of "Il Vittorioso" hosted a great deal of nationalism (including "Romano il legionario", a sort of italian counterpart to military-flavored comic books), what’s interesting is that this story, from 1945, features partisans from the italian resistance movements.
And of course, no superheroes. :)
P.S. Scan is from a bound volume, magazine is tabloid size.
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@vaillant: That's right, sundancetrance and tilliban are the German branch of DCM.
We are precode horror fans and try to hunt down missing books.
I know about "Il Vittorioso". Italy has a long and great comic culture.
Personally I'm an admirer of that funny genius - Jacovitti.
(the Italian Bill Elder...)
;D
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Hi Tilliban,
where did you get acquainted with "Il Vittorioso"?. It would be nice to have an international section to talk about, and compare, historical productions. I am not aware, for example, of a true comics tradition in Germany (meaning a local production).
Did you know that Jacovitti went close to being enrolled in the SS? In fact, there is a scene of a few panels which ran simultaneously to "The Boys of Piazza Cinquecento" (from Jacovitti's story "Ciak"), where Jac makes an inside-joke portraying the boys kicking the SS in their a**. :)
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@Yoc: Thanks for splitting the threads, although a little introduction could have been handy.
This could be disorienting, especially for US readers. :)
P.S. Maybe we could write a short cap and edit it in tilliban's first post. ;)
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Hi Vaillant,
If you would like to write something I'd be happy to add it to the first post on this topic.
Just reply here and I can copy and paste it in.
:)
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Thanks folks.
Its very useful.
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@vaillant:
I'm no expert on Italian comics, just read a comics magazine about them:
http://www.reddition.de/index.php/start/neuigkeiten/ausgabe55
Have a look, it's very nice, you can even flip through the minimized issue!
The discussion of German comics we had somewhere else. I'll post it here again (these are the words of a German publisher):
The german comic-market:
It is dominated by three companies, which put out mostly (if not only) foreign material; there is Panini, which publishes the most US-Comics (that means they are publishing Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, IDW, Bongo and some more, all in one publishing house), their most popular books are The Simpsons (which sold here up to 160000 at its peak, which is far more than in US, as I know) and Star Wars.
The biggest is Ehapa/Egmont, which publishes mainly Disney-stuff.
In fact, Disney-Comics (especially Donald Duck) are the most popular comic-books in germany (not western; in fact, western comics are very few here, and they are oddly enough mostly produced in France), there is a weekly magazine called Micky Maus which is now being published for 60 years, and the even more popular monthly paperback "Lustige Taschenbücher" (sells about 250000, about 450 issues so far) plus a lot of other Duck-related books from collections of famous artist like Carl Barks to special editions featuring the adventures of the Fleagle Boys or something.
All the bigger companies have no policy for publishing comics originated in germany, even if they are publishing an occasional one from time to time.
The publishing houses which are producing original german comics are few, and most of them are small underground or independent-publishers like my company (with a meager output of 10 books a year), with one exception: The guys of Mosaik, they are putting out a monthly comic book (which is kind of a leftover of the GDR) on a very professional basis ...
There were some publishers during the 50s and 60s publishing homegrown comics, mainly featuring the tame adventures of knights and jungle heroes, or some SF-heroes. A lot of this stuff was drawn and written by just one man, Hansrudi Wäscher.
With the advent of US-Comics in germany during the 60s (by then western was very popular here) this kind of comics died out. Mainly because the imported stuff was far superior to the often crudely drawn comics of german origin.
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I've split this into a new International Comics topic to allow scanners to talk about their scanners while the international crowd can enjoy their own topic here.
Thanks to Yoc, but just a note: By "international" I mean "international". Any discussion, which I auspicate the most fruitful, does not exclude the USA or american comics. :)
In fact, since comics as we conceive them, are born in the USA, it’s only appropriate to have such a discussion here, on the DCM, which – although it’s devoted mostly to comic books – is born out of passion for the medium as a whole.
@Tilliban: Thanks for the very concise recap. It’s handy. Of course I know Ehapa. When I was 14 I used to buy occasionally Micky Maus and some Lustige Taschenbuch (even if I didn’t get anything out of them), sometimes because I just enjoyed to compare the character's names. "Lustiges Taschenbuch" is the german edition of "I Classici di Walt Disney", one of our greatest Disney comics antology, which reprinted the best of the italian production, since 1957.
There were some publishers during the 50s and 60s publishing homegrown comics, mainly featuring the tame adventures of knights and jungle heroes, or some SF-heroes. A lot of this stuff was drawn and written by just one man, Hansrudi Wäscher.
With the advent of US-Comics in germany during the 60s (by then western was very popular here) this kind of comics died out. Mainly because the imported stuff was far superior to the often crudely drawn comics of german origin.
This is a pity, but it seems so strange there hasn’t been more. Anything prior to 1950?
Japan had a comics tradition before the modern post-war conception, and it would be very interesting to know how much and how comics were known before the 1940s in Germany… :)
P.S. I have just purchased the digital editions of TwoMorrows Alter Ego #17 (because of my growing interest for Lou Fine’s art) and of the Quality Companion.
They are amazing, and once again a big "thank you" to Jim Vadeboncoeur for being there! ;)
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P.S.2: That Reddition magazine is great. There must be some serious researcher among you germans. :)
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Had me laughing there: No, no comics before 1950 – just „Der Führer“-trading cards.
But as we Germans do not produce comic books, we are ardent researchers, historians and fans.
There are many collectors in Germany and a big community of Carl Barks aficionados with thousands of members:
http://www.donald.org/
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This is good. Size isn't everything after all and the USA is the only, I think, country where comics are virtually all the same shape with that portrait style. Other countries comics production really shows the variety of shapes and sizes that have been produced over the years and that includes titles which have changed size and shape dramatically during their published lives.
Tilliban, I have to say that the tradition of European comics featuring historical characters - swordsmen, cowboys, pirates, knights - many of them masked with secret i/d's - and schoolboys/girls, detectives, etc.has been a great source of entertainment to millions for yonks. Many of the titles produced in many European countries were of a very high standard, particularly in the art. I mentioned somewhere else re.your mention of Hansrudi Wachser, that I knew some of his stuff and enjoyed it. It might not be of the same standard as Bill Lacey on Blackshirt or some of the strips featured in L'Audace that I've been looking at on Fumetti Anteguerra on vintagecomicsforum, but enjoyable all the same. In fact, I've seen much, much worse in the pages of some American comics.
I'm not always looking for a Kirby (in fact, I'm still not totally convinced, despite JVJs valliant attempts to set me right) or an Adams, although Bill Lacey, Ron Turner, Don Lawrence, some artists in L'audace, for example,are easily as talented and enjoyable to read, and I really enjoy all those Spanish historical masked men, British produced detectives and cowboys, Italian neri, French graphic novels, Dutch Kapitein Rob and so much more.
Sorry, bit of a ramble. Hope it makes sense. Keep it up, please.
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Yay! This is going to be a great thread…
I’m not sure I get all the humour in Tillban’s reply, but I guess he alludes to all the nazism government propagandistic paper material, right? Well, in fact I wasn’t strictly speaking of the late 1930s/1940s, but I was thinking of any possible german or german-tradition-inspired comic (I hereby use the word "comic" to set a generic word, good for all countries, although I think the italian "fumetti" is a lot better, but it has a different meaning in english).
After all, we can say The Katzenjammer Kids is as much as a german strip as it is american, and its contribution to the development of the medium has been huge. It was already published in italy on "Il Corriere dei Piccoli" since its first issue (in 1908). The title represented mostly italian bourgeois culture, as opposed to other titles experimenting and alternating foreign and italian material.
And – Paw Broom will allow me – Jack Kirby’s output (especially in his maturity) is imbued with so much austro-european storytelling heritage, myths and folklore, to be considered european as well. In particular, no american-born artist could have conceived a character like Agatha Harkness, or – coming to Tilliban – a certain kind of horror stories.
True, the character of Witchboy (from the pages of DC's "The Demon") is imbued with references to early euro-american protestantisim but the whole series in some ways feels like something straight out of the middle ages thrown in the practical american frame of mind.
And we were entering the 1970s. Jack was clearly a genius, but let's not forget he was austrian in heritage. :)
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Jacovitti: Pippo and the dictator (published in comic book slightly after the war, but drawn in 1945):
(http://www.supergulp.biz/files/supergulp_collezionismo_Files/ebay_images/readyproebayimages/17133_102325_3.JPG)Benito Jacovitti was then 22, and he already orchestrated the tales of his personal "kid gang" ("Pippo, Pertica and Palla") with daring incoscience, among the (also spiritual) ruins of post-war italy.
I still have to purchase that story, which has also been reprinted a few times. Even the first edition is not expensive.
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Excellent vaillant. One of many landscape comics. Love that format.
As for Kirby, I have never considered him or his work in that way. I should explain that some of us fans here in Scotland don't hold Mr. Kirby in quite the same esteem as you and most on this site. We haven't quite figured out what made him so great and tend to place certain other artists higher in terms of our reading enjoyment Doesn't mean I don't love lots of his comics. But I will now have to re-think a couple of things after reading your comments.
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Of course. When I started reading Marvel comic books, at about age 9, I was fascinated by the style of John Buscema, Sal Buscema, Gil Kane, other artists which got hugely prominent in the 1970s. But as I discovered earlier issues of the Fantastic Four I was entirely drawn within their unique atmosphere. They have – I can’t explain better – almost a "mystical" quality, and the delicate alchemy has to be accredited to Stan Lee as well.
Jack alone was a giant, but his "Achilles heel" was a tendency to exaggeration, in ideas and occasionally in dialogues. Although I still think his second, late period on the SA "Captain America", and the Black Panther, have been heavily undervalued by certain comics criticism.
I’m sure you’d find Demon a fascinating read. He also did a pair of pretty original magazine-sized publications in the early 1970s, one dealing with the occult throughout history, and the other one with gangsterism, titled "In the days of the mob". :)
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I’m sure you’d find Demon a fascinating read.
I second this. Demon is one of my all-time favorite characters.
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At one time I had both those magazines and I had a set of Demon. It was good, might still be good. When I got back into comics, Forever People, New Gods etc. had not long begun and I managed to find the early issues, second hand. Loved them but mainly because they were different. I quickly got fed up with Barda and those HUGE women, plus the art seemed to become looser and bigger. The issues I have kept are the ones with g.a. reprints. However, the silver age Captain America was and is excellent. But then, I'm a Cap. fan.
Reddition magazine looks extremely interesting. It's frustrating because there are comics and albums in there that I have read and stuff I want to find out about but my German is very poor. I noticed a mention of Misterix and it didn't look like any of the other characters of the same name that I know about. O.K., forget that, it's an anthology mag. and it's landscape. Just found some issues listed on ebay.
Kid gangs do seem a popular strand in comics of many countries. I'm intrigued by the Jacovitti cover. So here is the great D.D. Watkins giving us Lord Snooty and his pals duping Hitler:-
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/Photos/Our-galleries/slideshow/91/dudley-d-watkins-lord-snooty-and-hitler.html
Just scroll along the pictures.
By the way, Paw Broon is the father in The Broons strip from The Sunday Post, by Dudley D. Watkins.
And here are some gorgeous Watkins panels:-
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/Photos/Our-galleries/slideshow/92/treasure-from-the-archives-the-gems-of-dudley-d-watkins.html
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Teens like to read about teens. Even before comics there were plenty of book series. I am a fan of the Boy Allies series of books from WW1. Even though they were more young adults than boys. Bomba the Jungle Boy is also pretty good. You and I agree on not liking Kirby's big women Paw. It visually turned me off to his DC work. Watson, I hated Kirby's late period. Mainly because he had two not so powerful characters fighting cosmic events.
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It took me a long time for Kirby and Ditko to grow on me. Once I read the first adventures of Dr Strange and The X-Men I could see the the attraction.
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Despite what I wrote above, I took to Kirby's FF right away. It looked so good back then. But what impressed me even more was Ditko on Spiderman. That was the bees knees. To the extent that when his run finished, I sort of lost interest. Ditko on Captain Atom and Blue Beetle was just as good, imo. As I keep saying, our comics were different and we had very little exposure to American comics prior to 1960. Interestingly, to me at any rate, I still love to read Ron Turner on Rick Random and Bill Lacey on Blackshirt, or Dan Dare or P.C.49 and many more rather than F.F. but those early Spideys still have that air of greatness about them. Also, the recent(ish) vols of Rip Kirby leave lots of other stuff choking on dust, they are just so good.
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The first Spidey issues are very good Paw, but if you haven't seen the first Dr Strange stories in Strange Tales (debuted in Strange Tales #110) - get them! Just mind blowing stuff!
:)
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I agree that Doc S was probably Ditko's best work. I do not like magic characters at all but those early Ditko's will still get my attention. I did not take as much to his Spiderman but love his Captain Atom. I liked Kirby up until his BIG WOMEN
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Never was and never will be into superheroes.
For me comic art is the european ALBUM:
Western by Jijé, Herman and Giraud
Funnies by Morris, Herge, Uderzo, Franquin
Fantasy by Moebius, Paape, Mèziéres and Bilal
Adventure by Herman, Jijé and Vance.
The franco-belgian masters. So what am I doing with American golden age comics?
Love the pure manic craziness of 50s comic books!
This is raw energy and wild creativity. And I think it is just around here that graphic art is truly unleashed.
It's a wonderful ride - from trash to art and back again.
A "Wundertüte" as we say in German (a "lucky bag"? bag of goodies?, doesn't seem to translate well)...
::)
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Yes, but the majority of European comics are non-superhero fare. That's why there are so many detectives, pirates, archers, spacemen and all those historical characters.
And how good to find someone talking about Jije', and not only his westerns - that's really good work. While I love superheroes, I'm still very keen on many Euro. comics and albums and would add Corto Maltese, Le Scorpion and Masquerouge to your list. There's so much more but a list would take up the page. But there are masked mystery men, costumed heroes and some genuine superheroes in British and European comics and most of them are virtually unknown in N.America.
Yoc, thanks for reminding me about Doctor Strange as I had forgotten it. I used to have some of the Ditko then Brunner comics, but, no longer. Seriously good art but perhaps I prefer Spidey and Cap. Atom because they aren't magical heroes.
Vaillant, I've been reading a Spanish book on comics, Apuntes para una Historia de los Tebeos, by Antonio Martin and they mention Superman who appeared in landscape comics and his name was changed to Ciclon el Superhombre. I'm also sure Ciclon was in a weekly, Spanish anthology but as yet, I can't find the reference. There is also a cover of Juan Centella, who is Dick Fulmine.
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Asterix the Gaul translated albums were always on file at my library. From about grade 4 I started reading them all. Those and the British GILES collections which went over my head but I loved the artwork and still do.
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Asterix is rather good, isn't it? I read the English translations because I couldn't read French then. But Tintin I read initially in English but years later, the original
French. About the same time I discovered Corto Maltese when we were on holiday in France. And I hope you've all read Les Celtiques/Le Celtiche. If not here are paintings from a Pratt show:- http://www.gqitalia.it/show/lifestyle/2011/7/hugo-pratt-e-il-suo-corto-maltese-in-mostra-a-lugano
Ah, Giles (happy wistful, nostalgic sigh), the politics and situations are often very, very British so I get it on that level and the art is so good. Try these pages if you don't already have them:- http://www.gilescartoons.co.uk/default.asp
http://www.cartoons.ac.uk/article/giles-origins-grandma
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Thanks for the link Paw. Loved the Giles bio stuff. Learned a lot about him there.
Long Live Grandma :)
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Never was and never will be into superheroes.
@tilliban: I think that’s just because readers have become accustomed to perceive "superhero" as a genre. In fact, I think that as anything gets crystallized into a genre by criticism (you need to do that, wasn’t only for purposes of classification and historical placement), a side-effect is a reinforcement of impressions related to preconceptions. Without this, many preconceptions would never take hold so strongly. I am firmly convinced taste has an objective part to it, which can be clearly exposed, criticized, discussed, while of course there is a subjective element due to each one's sensibility.
@narfstar: we must also take into account a fundamental factor: the point in your life when you read a certain comic (or book).
It’s inevitable we get affectioned to certain things, which become part of our background and cultural development.
Personally, I find some of Kirby’s later work truly fantastic, although it has big weaknesses as well. I agree the slant on certain characterizations (and Big Barda is an example, which in my opinion makes Mr. Miracle the weaker of the titles, with due exceptions), but his late 1970s Cap and Black Panther are underrated for no serious reason.
It’s clear the early silver age stories have a specific quality, ineffable I would say, which makes them unique, but I think Jack’s storyline of the vibranium-related "disease" featuring Kiber the cruel is among one of the most thrilling and vaguely disturbing, since the Fantastic Four story arc of the "beehive" (my favorite).
@Paw: Back to the 1940s, I have to read the strip you linked. Do you know if there is some list of british comics dealing with WW2, nazism, national socialisms, et al (either in satire or serious stories)?
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It's mostly nostalgia, let's be frank.
What one "discovers" in his youth, will stay with him forever.
And will be glorified.
I doubt that modern youth will take a liking to those (often crudely drawn) golden age classics.
Even I don't. That's why I start with the 50s.
EC rules. Hehe.
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@Paw: Back to the 1940s, I have to read the strip you linked. Do you know if there is some list of british comics dealing with WW2, nazism, national socialisms, et al (either in satire or serious stories)?
[/quote]
No, there isn't a list as such but there were so many that it would be difficult to compile. Everything from Oor Wullie in the Sunday Post via Giles to all those titles and more that I listed above. Most of the anthology story-papers and comics had war stories, The Victor mentioned above being a prime example and there was Battle Picture Library; War Picture Library; Air ace Picture Library; Battler Britton et al.
More Victor covers here:-
http://www.kellyscomics.com/victor-comics.php
This whole site has many D.C. Thomson covers and is worth a look anyway.
Just found this article:- www.sussex.ac.uk/history/documents/ems
Extremely interesting. I hope it's of some use to you.
And here is more Giles, this time during W.W.2 :- http://www.cartoons.ac.uk/collections/CG/1/1/1
With my shiny new computer up and running, I'm dismayed to find that my scanner/printer doesn't seem to be compatible with it. Typical. More expense. I'm trying to scan an Oor Wullie page from 1939 which makes fun of Hitler. I'll keep trying.
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paw broom: Before you scrap it and buy new, make sure to check your scanner manufacturer's web page for new software, drivers, etc. Don't trust Microsoft/Apple/Linux to find them for you because usually they fail miserably. ;)
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"Before you scrap it and buy new, make sure to check your scanner manufacturer's web page for new software, drivers, etc. Don't trust Microsoft/Apple/Linux to find them for you because usually they fail miserably. Wink" watson387
Thanks. I tried the website and found drivers but I still can't access the scan function as previously despite reloading the Epson disk. But I can scan. Don't ask 'cos I don't know.
So, I'm going to try to post an Oor Wullie page here. If it's wrong size - too big, could a mod. please either resize it or delete it. Not very good at this.
"@Paw: Back to the 1940s, I have to read the strip you linked. Do you know if there is some list of british comics dealing with WW2, nazism, national socialisms, et al (either in satire or serious stories)?" vaillant
Vaillant and anyone else who's interested, here's an Oor Wullie page from 1939 which makes fun of Hitler. The text is written in broad Scots so you might not get much from the script.
(http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/masquerouge/OorWullieHitler001644x800.jpg)
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It's mostly nostalgia, let's be frank.
What one "discovers" in his youth, will stay with him forever.
And will be glorified.
I doubt that modern youth will take a liking to those (often crudely drawn) golden age classics.
Even I don't. That's why I start with the 50s.
EC rules. Hehe.
Hi tilliban. May be to some degree (surely not in its entirety otherwise you’d deny any value to criticism, which nonetlehess is inherent and can’t be honestly avoided, even when we are speaking of "taste"), but then we must see what "nostalgia" actually is. It’s never have been clear to me. Nostalgia may simply be one of the strongest indicators of something pointing deep within the human earth.
Now, you are telling me you read EC comics as a kid in Germany? I wasn’t aware of such publications.
Now, I have never liked EC in particular, but it took very little for me to become thoroughly fascinated with the golden age. And this has obviously nothing to do with nostalgia as you seemed to intend when you spoke, because it would plainly stop to Marvel's early silver age.
There is also another consideration, and this comes from temperament. I think I am more fascinated by drama than comedy, while I see you are a comical actor (if I get it right from your site). Now, it's not that comedy has to map out tragedy or vice-versa, but it's undeniable there is a basic appreciation of a story in one of the two keys, be it adventurous or not.
Personally, I truly enjoy comical aspects in a dramatic, even highly dramatic story, but I am not so attracted to horror "per se".
There is a very interesting study (I recall) published by a french magazine in the 1990s which looked at Kirby’s "Fourth World" applying to it the two aspects of comedy and tragedy as they were in ancient greece. Maybe he jumps to partially arbitrary conclusions, but I recall it’s very interesting, and it helped me appreciate the stories, as I read a good part of them afterwards.
This also reminds me that there aren’t just "female furies" or Big Barda on New Genesis and Apokolips, but also Bekka, and definitely charming female plain human characters (not to mention Beautiful Dreamer). I say this for narf. :)
@Paw: Many thanks for all the references and information: I’ll have to delve into it, now.
In fact, broad scots doesn’t seem exaggeratedly difficult, well not more than american slang anyway… :P
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It is funny that I did not like Kirby's big women but in real life I prefer some meat on the bone ;) But to me Kirby's women looked like weigh lifters and I do not like that look on women. But I do not like the size 2 women as much as the size 10-14 which are more huggable and soft like women should be.
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It is funny that I did not like Kirby's big women but in real life I prefer some meat on the bone ;) But to me Kirby's women looked like weigh lifters and I do not like that look on women. But I do not like the size 2 women as much as the size 10-14 which are more huggable and soft like women should be.
Oh, but I think I understand what you mean by disliking those 4th world female characters. Jack in the 1970s tended to portrait a number of female characters as "warrior women", and with an inker like Mike Royer, excellent but without the gentleness of Sinnott, they looked a little like "barbarians". :)
However, if you look closely, I think skinner female characters, or more gracious ones (like the Beautiful Dreamer) show the same variety that Kirby’s drawing style used to have in the 1940s and 1950s. I think in the 1970s it depended a lot on the inker.
Demon, however, is beautifully drawn. ;)
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Nostalgia, HUH? This is always an interesting topic and one that occasionally comes up at comic marts here. Despite getting on a bit, I had virtually no exposure to G.A. comics, or American comics, growing up, yet I'm a fan. Nor did I know anything about the wealth of European material that I have been discovering over the last 25 - 30 years, so I'm not hankering after something I knew as a child. I am nostalgic for steam trains, etc. And as for the art in old comics, from various countries, a lot of it is of a very high standard. High quality art and illustration didn't just start with EC. Like vaillant, I never got into EC, it was too early for me anyway and the reprints did little for me, despite the quality of the art.
Without going into my taste in women, there are artists other than Kirby who render more physically attractive and/or striking, female characters. Alex Raymond; D.J.van Exter with Rikki Visser; Lou Fine; Eisner; Frank Robbins; Jack Cole; Don Lawrence; Jim Holdaway with Modesty Blaise; (and this could just be me but) Frank Hampson's Professor Peabody from Dan Dare. These are just the first ones that come to mind and there are many more examples. Plus all the more modern guys.
I've always loved the look of Kathy Kane in the Batwoman costume - and that is nostalgia.
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My true nostalgia is SA and many particular comics from many publishers produce an affect on me. What excitement I have for the GA comes from annual JLA/JSA then Fantasy Masterpieces at Marvel.
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Nicely put and well observed, vaillant.
I am a comical person and love any kind of comedy.
And EC offers a lot of comedy – even in its horror titles.
As a kid, I got started on MAD (German version) and as an adolescent I could indeed get my hands on first reprints of US-American ECs like those from East Coast Comix and that fabulous Nostalgia Press compendium “The EC Horror Library”.
So the franco-belgian albums and EC are my two comics “legs” I stand on.
@paw broon: MODESTY BLAISE is a very cool and surely underrated comic strip! Thanks for reminding us..
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To add to the "nostalgia" question: as a child I use to daydream on how it could have been the childhood of my own parents. This led, later on, to my collecting of late 1930s Disney publications (which my parents never read since they were too expensive when they were kids).
I am a comical person and love any kind of comedy.
You’d love Jacovitti. Seriously. It may be that something has been published in Germany, but I assure you that Jacovitti’s scope of work as a whole is something amazing. And I am not particularly a fan of him, rather of Sebastiano Craveri (who was among the responsibles in introducing 16 years old Jacovitti to the publisher), one of the three "big authors" on which Il Vittorioso has been built. They were called "the three Cs": Caesar (author of Romano il legionario, as I said elsewhere, the fascist equivalent of US-airborne 1940s heroes), Caprioli (although neglected by criticism he influenced a great deal of artists, including Milo Manara) and Craveri (his Zoo family was a genuinely italian alternative to the Disney antropomorphic animals).
It would be great to arrive, at some point, to present something of Jacovitti in English language. I’d love to work on that. There are others, of course, but Jacovitti was already amazing slight afterwards the War.
Without going into my taste in women, there are artists other than Kirby who render more physically attractive and/or striking, female characters. Alex Raymond; D.J.van Exter with Rikki Visser; Lou Fine; Eisner; Frank Robbins; Jack Cole; Don Lawrence; Jim Holdaway with Modesty Blaise;
Of course, but Jack shouldn’t be dismissed, not before reading *all* of his output… ;)
Raymond has been a huge influence on Caesar. In fact, in Romano il legionario he’s extremely "Raymondesque", although it retains his uniqueness.
(and this could just be me but) Frank Hampson's Professor Peabody from Dan Dare.
Oh no, it’s not just you. :)
Besides, the way the virgin Mary is portrayed in "The Road of Courage" is breathtaking. Also Judas, Hampson goes deep with him: you can almost grasp his inner tragedy, the overwhelming darkness of temptation as he gets out in the open, after the last supper. The only "weak" characterization – unthinkable but true – seems to be precisely the Lord himself. Hampson’s Jesus seems a pale, generic, good looking character. This is the strangest element of the whole story as well, but I guess it has a lot to do with the personal involvement of the authors, and their own experience of christianity. I have a few Eagle issues, I’d like to collect the whole run but they are not easy to find, and right now I have priorities with the italian and comic book stuff.
Ah, and Lou Fine is nothing short of AMAZING. And I mean it. :)
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And now I have a Craveri avatar. ;)
It’s "Porcellino" (Piggy) from the Zoo family. :)
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Cute avatar V
:)
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All that about beautiful/striking female characters set me thinking, oddly enough, and I want to add, Eva Kant, Diabolik's classy, beautiful, and sometimes deadly, partner.
One your never likely to see and a lady detective I like - Lesley Shane. Her adventures appeared in Super Detective Library and here's a cover:-
http://www.bookpalace.com/PicLibs/SDPL/PAGES/SDL092.HTM
How could I have not mentioned Diana Palmer as drawn by Ray Moore or Wilson McCoy or Sy Barry.
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I am a comical person and love any kind of comedy.
You’d love Jacovitti. Seriously. It may be that something has been published in Germany, but I assure you that Jacovitti’s scope of work as a whole is something amazing.
It would be great to arrive, at some point, to present something of Jacovitti in English language. I’d love to work on that. There are others, of course, but Jacovitti was already amazing slight afterwards the War.
I'll second the recommendation of Jacovitti, Tillmann, and suggest also Mordillo - another Italian master, IMHO.
Have you finalized your Paris trip? I'll show you a big book of Mordillo when you get here.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
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I'll second the recommendation of Jacovitti, Tillmann, and suggest also Mordillo - another Italian master, IMHO.
Have you finalized your Paris trip? I'll show you a big book of Mordillo when you get here.
Peace, Jim (|:{>
Coming from you, JVJ, this is a "senior recommendation". ;)
Well, Mordillo is more a humorist, I would classify him with Gary Larson (his surreal humour in "The Far Side") rather than with a true storyteller as Jacovitti has been.
Have you ever read some 1940s Jacovitti? It’s my favorite, up to 1948. His first story, "Pippo e gli inglesi" was a satire against the British army, and written and drawn when he was 16. Almost unrecognizable by someone accustomed to his 1960-70s mature style, but the characters (a "kid gang", as I said previously) had a freshness which was absent as his mature style had crystallized.
Cover of the first reprint in comic-book form, courtesy of Vintage Comics forum users (original story run on "Il Vittorioso" in 1941):
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A sequence (image taken from the blog conversazionisulfumetto.files.wordpress.com).
If someone’s interested I have the full story (I own the complete 1941 run of the journal).
Cute avatar V Smiley
Thanks Yoc. I am very affectioned to Craveri. When Jacovitti, as a boy, sent his work to the redaction in Rome, Craveri said: "What are you waiting? Put him at work!". He was a great man, besides being a real giant in the pre-war comics scene here in Italy, and he almost died in poverty. When he was ill, Jacovitti, contacted by people which were helping him, sent a generous sum of money to help him and his wife.
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Quick comments so I don't derail the conversation too much...
Nostalgia: I agree with Paw that it's definitely not the limit. Mostly, I'm not fond of the books I started out with (early '80s stuff). Batman led me to All-Star Squadron, which led me to Justice League, which led me to back issues where the JSA appeared, which led me eventually to Golden Age stories. To me, the lack of homogeneity outweighs the often-thin plots.
Superheroes: Valliant hit the nail on the head, I think, that "superheroes" aren't a storytelling genre. Like science-fiction, it's just stage dressing. At their best, Batman stories are crime comics, Superman stories are horror comics, Spider-Man stories are romance comics, and so on. The problems just happen to be resolved by a protagonist who's a tiny bit too happy with his body. When the writers forget this, things are less entertaining.
(A good analogy is probably Star Trek. The episodes that "work" are Gulliver's Travels in space. Those that don't are about BEING IN SPACE, all-caps.)
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Ah, vaillant, that's so good and I'd love to read the rest of the story. WW2 has been going for a while and I'm curious to find out how they got there and how they get away (if they do) It's lovely stuff and I find myself more and more these days, enjoying high quality humorous art and storytelling of this type. I'll have try to search out some Harry Banger stuff (he did lots for G.G.Swan). It surprises me that there hasn't been more comment re. D.D. Watkins (perhaps most on here haven't seen enough of his work) because he's considered a bit of a genius, not only in Scotland and his Broons Sunday strips from the early '60's are about as good as this genre gets.
"Valliant hit the nail on the head, I think, that "superheroes" aren't a storytelling genre. Like science-fiction, it's just stage dressing." John C
That's very true but more with the "super" detective, non-powered characters. There are so many in comics history who don supersuits when they could do the same work in everyday clothes. And that cloak wearing thing has always bothered me. Up a dark alley with a couple of hard men trying to knock your head off, wouldn't a cape just trip you up and hamper all those "moves"? There is a case to be made for crimefighters donning disguise to protect loved ones and to, hopefully, instill fear into the hearts of evildoers. But Bulldog Drummond; The Saint; The Toff; Rip Kirby; Challengers; Suicide Squad; Secret Six; Fightin 5 etc. never bothered with masks and costumes but still got the job done.
Actually, there is something wrong with my argument but I can't quite figure out what it is and anyway, I forgot that Bulldog Drummond and his mates in the book, The Black Gang , donned robes and hoods to hide their i/d's from the police.
There is something colourful and exciting about supersuits and masks and all that pallaver. Another example from Spanish comics, El Capitan Trueno - no mask; El guerrero del Antifaz - masked. (I know he's supposed to be hiding his true i/d for reasons explained at the start of the series but, really, hundreds of issues later? I'm a huge fan of both and they are both exciting well told comic stories.
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Interesting point about that “superheroes are no genre”.
Seems to me that one can classify a certain comic in more than just one category, though.
I love Jacovitti, there were German editions of a few of his COCCO BILL western parodies – haven’t got them, sadly.
And Mordillo I know more for his short animated cartoons. They used to be quite popular in central Europe. Just some years ago they were shown on subway screens while people were waiting for the trains to pull into the station. Hmmm.
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Actually, there is something wrong with my argument but I can't quite figure out what it is
Look at it this way: Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?
Actually, I choose to believe that most of these guys aren't "really" dressed like clowns. It's just the artist's way of making sure you don't forget which character is which. The same reason Shaggy from Scooby Doo has seemingly been wearing that same ratty green shirt every day for half a century. (It also resolves contradictions between issues and terrible stories: The writer got it wrong in hopes of a more entertaining product.)
And genre-wise, keep in mind I am thinking of the comics "at their best." So yes, it's easier to see that a masked detective is just a detective with a mask, but if you look at everyone's favorite Superman stories, what are they usually about? Either a mad scientist (Luthor) with an invention threatening the city or a scary, angry or mindless alien come to destroy either the world or Superman himself. Take away the cape and the powers, and you have a light-hearted horror story, basically. (There's a huge exception that the Superman of the '70s were almost always involved in coming-of-age stories, either discovering more of Krypton's past or finding his place in the world. I think the shift works, but a lot of people don't.)
I suspect that's also why Aquaman gets a bad reputation. The writers consistently want him to be a horror protagonist or (worse) an Arthurian protagonist, and they don't fit. Why? Because he's a Western hero, bringing a code of honor to the lawless seas and coastal towns. Fighting Cthulhu or Moby Dick or the Pacific Garbage Patch just reminds us that he's stuck in the ocean and the writer is forced to remind us (in a very loud, authoritative voice) that the ocean makes up more than three quarters of the Earth's surface, so he is too every bit as important as the Flash...
I think (on topic) that's something that American writers struggle with without knowing it and non-American writers never picked up, struggling instead (as you hint at) issues of whether a person could easily reproduce the acts in the comic exactly as they're portrayed. The feedback has produced the awful idea that comics are a new kind of mythology (which, no, myths explain stuff) in the States or abandoning (either outright abandonment or parody) the superhero dressing to tell more mundane-looking stories in comic form overseas.
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Thanks for those thinks. But some other ideas and thoughts came to mind on the bus this morning re. your Star Trek analogy, and now your comments on mad scientists have caused me to ponder further. This 1st. example isn't about comics but, here in the U.K. we had 2 private detectives (2 of many), Sexton Blake and Dixon Hawke, who each had their regular "pulp" series (I use "pulp" even though they are not pulps as Americans would know them) and in the '40's, each of these detectives regularly came up against mad scientists, threats to society and in both cases enemies who could be considered to be more than simply splendid human specimens - Marko the Miracle Man and Waldo the Wonderman. No ordinary bank robberies here more infernal plots and machinery and almost superhuman wrongdoing. Then again, a prose writer doesn't have the same problem with the reader forgetting who the protagonists are as is necessary in a superhero comic.
As for Star Trek, not being the biggest fan, my preferences are for ships in space, cloaking devices, strange new worlds, much the same as I read in Honor Harrington or The Lost Fleet or McDevitts empty universe books or strange alien artifacts, preferably with extra dimensions inside. There regularly seemed to be too much soul searching and giant hands in space for me. That's probably why I prefer Babylon 5 to a lot of Star Trek.
"Look at it this way: Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?" John C
Love it.
Of course, a couple of those guys are dressed like clowns, deliberately, well, jesters and the like. Not forgetting.........................TA-DA, The Crimson Clown. Great name, daft costume, exciting stories. Just as well there has never been a comics adaptation.
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I actually used Star Trek figuring that Kirk and Spock would be pretty iconic, not that it's the best science-fiction ever. But if you pick a random episode, I think you'll find that the episodes that are almost entirely satire (planets of Nazis, planets of 1920s gangsters, the post-atomic Cold War planet where Kirk flips out because they're mispronouncing the United States Constitution) are enjoyable even when they're outright stupid, whereas the episodes that try to be smart or unique (planet of witches, explaining the Greek gods as aliens, android takeovers) don't ever seem to hit the mark.
The same generally goes for the other shows in the franchise, too. Deep Space Nine worked because it tried really hard to fit the mold of poking our world. Voyager...cast women and called it a day, as far as I could tell, and I still can't believe it lasted seven years.
Babylon 5 was a different animal entirely, being more or less a hundred-ish hour movie inspired by Babylonian myth. A shame Crusade got canned. The second season scripts I've seen floating around were far better than the stuff that made it to air.
As for prose, the other advantages are that you can have a longer lead time, don't need to worry about how long it'll take to draw, and can take the plot (almost) as far out as you want. If you had to push out a couple of book per month on these characters, you'd probably get the same repeating plots that magically restore the status quo at the end.
Funny thing, since we're picking at stuff, though. I always find it amazing that, of all the movements for "realism" I've seen over the years, nobody has ever touched the two most absurdly unrealistic aspects of the setting. The secret identity is a terrible idea, since framing you is trivial among the "due process" problems and concealment problems. And no sane group of "best people in the world" would waste an afternoon every week sitting around a conference table and "training."
I really just marvel (no pun intended) every time I pick up a Justice League book and see Batman or Aquaman in some sort of sparring match with the other heroes. I like to imagine the scene they didn't show, where he says something like, "well, I spend sixteen hours a day fighting maniacs, skulking around alleys, and dodging bullets, but sure, I can waste half a day doing exactly those same things with you instead for fun while my home burns to the ground. But only if we can vote on something irrelevant afterward like where to hang the Giant Kayak of Doom."
It's possible, though, that I like comics for different reasons than most people...
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"Look at it this way: Is Batman really that much more absurd than a woman running to catch her train in high heels and a tight skirt?" John C
Love it.
Yeah but which would you rather watch on a big screen tv ;)
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"The secret identity is a terrible idea, since framing you is trivial among the "due process" problems and concealment problems. " John C
I suppose that's true except, there have been some strange legal results from English and Scottish courts in the last few years (Scotland has a different legal system from England, also a different education system) and I don't want to go into this sort of stuff in public - too serious. Surely the rationale in the secret i/d - alter ego thingy is to avoid the bad guys, or the polis, if you are one of the bad guys, getting at those close to you, or getting you if you are the miscreant. Why bankrobbers wear balaclavas etc.
"I really just marvel (no pun intended) every time I pick up a Justice League book and see Batman or Aquaman in some sort of sparring match with the other heroes. I like to imagine the scene they didn't show, where he says something like, "well, I spend sixteen hours a day fighting maniacs, skulking around alleys, and dodging bullets, but sure, I can waste half a day doing exactly those same things with you instead for fun while my home burns to the ground. But only if we can vote on something irrelevant afterward like where to hang the Giant Kayak of Doom." John C
Excellent. Mind, in the early JLA, that sort of thing never bothered me because it wasn't realistic, just some colourful entertainment. Now though, when it's all so serious and (supposed to be) realistic - EH? How can they be bothered. Maybe they don't do that anymore. It's been a few years since I read a JLA comic.
As for t.v. s.f., you'll have to take a look at the ancient BBC kids serials, Pathfinders In Space/Mars/Venus written by Malcolm Hulke and Eric Paice 1960 & 61. Dodgy sets, missed cues, duff effects but great entertainment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX0UG_H4QOA
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What really nags me about secret identities is, for lack of a better word, the "Green Lantern Principle." Heroes are fearless and honest...except that they're terrified to put their real names to their actions and lie about it pathologically.
I support the right to remain anonymous for the average person, but when that involves violence and assisting the authorities, it seems more trouble than it's worth. Court cases will get thrown out, because there's no arresting officer to verify that the suspect's rights were protected. The masked identity can be easily faked for the public. A lot of technology can see through the mask.
But you're right, when I'm reading the older stories, I don't think anything of it, because it's just part of the setting. It's only a problem when the writer spends time either mocking or "fixing" the unrealistic aspects of older comics--usually things that don't need fixing, like giving some hero a reason to use his powers responsibly--that I start looking at how even weirder it looks for heroes to collect trophies, build secret fortresses, and elect leaders, and that part is still taken as an article of faith.
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Off topic but I have to correct the error I made re. Pathfinders in Space. This wasn't a BBC serial, rather it was on ITV (the commercial channel) and made by ABC, a part of ITV. The company was run by the cinema chain, ABC. Perhaps of no importance to many on here but if some British fans stumbled on such a glaring mistake, I'd get letters.
"But you're right, when I'm reading the older stories, I don't think anything of it, because it's just part of the setting. It's only a problem when the writer spends time either mocking or "fixing" the unrealistic aspects of older comics--usually things that don't need fixing, like giving some hero a reason to use his powers responsibly--that I start looking at how even weirder it looks for heroes to collect trophies, build secret fortresses, and elect leaders, and that part is still taken as an article of faith." John C.
Yes, you're right. And that was then, this is now. But the old adage still apples - if it's not broken, don't fix it. I realise things are supposed to move with the times but I'm not sure the whole idea of superheroes is anything other than silly when they are involved in such modern recognisable worlds, with so much serious "realism". Even updating traditional, non-superhero franchises can be at the least embarrasing. When DC Thomson decided to overhaul The Broons in The Sunday Post, they brought in some contentious issues and some of the humour from this incredibly popular strip went away. Mind you, they got a lot of publicity, so perhaps the publishers were happy. Heaven only knows what deleterious effects would would have occurred had someone decided to update Tintin with mobile phones, personal problems, orientation insecurities etc. It's simply beautifully done, exciting, humourous fun and entertainment as it is. (I haven't seen the film, so maybe they have).
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I realise things are supposed to move with the times but I'm not sure the whole idea of superheroes is anything other than silly when they are involved in such modern recognisable worlds, with so much serious "realism". Even updating traditional, non-superhero franchises can be at the least embarrasing.
I wonder if that's the skill and leanings of the people doing the work, though. I mean, look how many times we hear that Warner wants to reboot the Superman franchise as something "darker." That doesn't serve the character well at all, and it's guaranteed to produce a mediocre movie.
Your mention of Tintin's (thankfully hypothetical) insecurities is a big part of that. I know everybody goes through times where they question themselves, but something writers don't seem to realize is that someone who does that all the time isn't interesting at all.
Still, there's a ring of truth to obsolescence. I don't think it's really true in a permanent sense (I hope not, at least), but western culture has become more blindly authoritative. Where superheroes were once social activists and super-muckrakers, the Comics Code turned them into police deputies. I apologize for edging too political in advance, but I can easily see an ambivalence to superheroes in a world that still cheers the release of the Pentagon Papers but wants to crush Wikileaks.
How does a character balance the need to do the right thing where the common wisdom seems to be that acting your conscience is some sort of neo-fascism? It's a hard question, but it's a series I'd love to read.
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from elsewhere I had not luck
Gary Kertz' daughter Sheri Roll is looking for copies of her father's
work. He appears to have worked for the Disney studio in the US,
though his work has apparently only been published outside the US.
Here is inducks' index for him:
http://coa.inducks.org/creator.php?c=Gary+Kertz&c1=date
inducks thinks he may be the same person listed as Gary Kurtz
http://coa.inducks.org/creator.php?c=GKu&c1=date
Can anyone hook her up with copies of any of these stories or dealers
who can supply her with copies?
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As there are Portuguese, French and German comics on the your links, you're increasing the chances of finding examples. However, I've had a quick search and come up with nothing but there are so many shops all over Europe which stock the Ducks that something must show up. I always look here as early as possible when searching for older stuff:-
http://stores.ebay.com/bdverdeau?_trksid=p4340.l2563.
If anything were to turn up, remember JVJ is in Paris and might be able to help.
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Back to Vaillant's question re ww2, naziism etc. in case some of you haven't seen this, here's some Marten Toonder material from that period:-
http://lambiek.net/dutchcomics/1940.htm
And here's a link to a Tom Poes page. Surely one of the great strips of its type and up there with Rupert Bear.
http://striptekenaar.weblog.nl/geen-categorie/de-makers-van-de-tom-poes-dagstrip/
Lambiek on Rupert and Bestall :-
http://www.lambiek.net/artists/b/bestall.htm
(very difficult to find examples of the Rupert strip as copyright is tightly guarded by Express newspapers)
As this an international section, perhaps we should be taking a look at old Dutch strips and comics - so much to enjoy.
And what about all those French recits complets and pocket libraries?
And the huge amount of Spanish comics material, some of it e.g. El Capitan Truano; El Guerrero del Antifaz; El Jabato being of excellent quality and highly entertaining.
Or is this me being selfish about my own passions?
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I have to get back, I haven’t forgotten the thread, of course.
I just wished to gain more focus on my research, and I have little time. We’ll see…
I always find John C's observations very reasonable. For now, about "superheroes as a genre", I just add that he expresses more or less my idea.
Plus, I would like to add that there are some of the weirdest Marvel stories of the 1970s (namely, Steve Gerber's Defenders or the Son of Satan, Omega the Unknown, etc.) which aren’t great, solid stories being "superhero stories", but just because they deal with real people, and in a very intimate way.
I recall a Defenders story by Gerber ("Too cold a night for dying", Giant size Defenders #14, where Trish Starr has just lost her arm) as one of the most deep and touching Marvel stories ever.
Cheers. :)
Ah, vaillant, that's so good and I'd love to read the rest of the story.
@paw, about "Pippo e gli inglesi": I’ll manage to locate a copy for you, I don’t recall its length. Just have patience… :(
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Thanks for going to all the trouble.
We did a review of Omega years ago, in our fanzine AKA, which I'm trying to have a friend scan. When I get it, I'll send you a copy.
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My sister-in-law brought me back a small pile of Frew Phantoms from her holiday in Australia - the benefits of preparing a list and a bit of bribery - and, coincidentally, a couple of weeks later our local library hosted a comics/g.n. night with some local small press companies on hand to chat. The main talk, however was given by David Bishop, one time editor of 2000AD and the Megazine. He was very entertaining, informative and funny. Being a bit slow on the uptake, it was well into his talk when he mentioned the Woman's Mirror - an Aus. weekly which featured The Phantom - when the penny dropped. David has written over 40 Phantom stories for the Swedish Phantom comic, most of which have also appeared in the Frew editions and I'm fortunate to have some in my collection. But he told me later that when he submits a story to Semic, or whatever the co. is now, in Sweden, they obviously translate it into Swedish but when the strip goes to Frew it is machine translated back into English, despite David having offered Frew the original English language strip. No wonder that at times reading a Frew reprint of a Swedish story jars a bit.
The Frew comics are rather poorly produced but it is the only way I can read the Swedish stories. The Scandinavian Phantom titles are very nice publications.
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Hi paw, I have yet to get back with the Jacovitti historical survey, but I delayed because I am interested in considering the war-related stories, starting with "Pippo e gli Inglesi". In fact, I’d also like to consider an english translation. Just be patient… :(
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Nessun problema, vaillant as I'm up to my ears in stuff to read and look at. More than I can remember in a long time and all because of the good people on here and CB+. I've said it before but it bears repeating - the more I find out, the more questions there are.
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Anyway, I have to do it, and working on these for you it’s the excuse I need to get started…
Plus, I’m sure you’ll love them, and it’s my intention to pass on to the other few war-themed Pippo stories by Jacovitti (1945-1949), which shows a rapidly evolving, almost mature style, and should be enjoyable for JVJ and Tilliban as well… ;)
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Alway curios to see something by Jacovitti!
:D
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Here is a question for any of this wise bunch. Did we have any intellectual rights agreements with the former USSR? Did they have such a thing as copyright under communism? Then the big question, is the work produced in a former Soviet block country during that time period, legal to print (put online) in the USA?
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Here is a question for any of this wise bunch. Did we have any intellectual rights agreements with the former USSR? Did they have such a thing as copyright under communism? Then the big question, is the work produced in a former Soviet block country during that time period, legal to print (put online) in the USA?
As I recall (there's a LOT of great stuff published in the Soviet Union, though I wasn't aware of comics), the situation was...bizarre. You might want to double-check this, but my recollection is that the government claimed perpetual copyright over everything and we didn't have any sort of relationship.
However, by treaty, all copyrights are considered published from some absurdly-recent date and granted back to the authors, and those we do support.
Again, double-check that, but that's what I remember from a diabolical plot involving science fiction novels.