- +

Author Topic: Character "Borrowing"  (Read 3232 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 03:29:15 PM »
The Black Bat was a pretty obvious "inspiration" for Batman.

It's easy to say so, but even then...Black Book Detective's cover date is July 1939, according to Wikipedia, whereas Detective Comics #27 is May 1939.  Without knowing the lead time, it's just a guess as to who had what idea when, especially when there were people who worked for both companies.

I'm not saying it happened this way (and almost certainly didn't, before anybody tries to debunk it...), but imagine if Pines wasn't so sure about the upcoming Black Bat and was considering deep-sixing the project and mentions it to someone like Whitney Ellsworth.  While they rewrite and fix the Black Bat, Bob Kane pitches Batman, with his bright-red tights, fixed wings, and domino mask, which nobody really likes.  So, Ellsworth pulls aside Bill Finger and wonders if maybe this Batman character might be darker, somehow...

Alternatively, the period from, say, the 1880s to the 1930s is pretty well littered with bat-themed characters.  There are even characters who did their work (mostly killing, but let's set that aside for the moment) with bat-themed vehicles and costumes.  Rather than one drawing from the other, someone in their common circle of friends might have found one of these, and then it would just be a matter of who hit the stands first.

Or Bob Kane might've stole it whole cloth.  No way to know.

Digital Comic Museum

Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2013, 03:29:15 PM »

Offline profpike

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 47
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 09:52:37 PM »
You're right, we can't know. But it is fun to speculate, especially when you see characters that just seem a little too similar.

Offline CharlieRock

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Karma: 1
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 01:44:36 AM »
Heh, for the first time I can call myself a 'comic book speculator'  :(|(

Offline profpike

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 47
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 04:07:03 AM »
I just watched the superheroes documentary from PBS-Joe Simon said he got the idea for Cap from Blue Bolt.

Offline profpike

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 47
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 04:10:56 AM »
So he "Borrowed" his own idea.

Offline CharlieRock

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 149
  • Karma: 1
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 07:15:07 AM »
what documentary was it? Maybe I can Netflix'it.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15031
  • Karma: 57
  • 14 Years Strong!
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2013, 09:19:49 AM »
PBS - repeats on WNEB Monday night at 9PM. 
Another one on Marvel in the 70s is on the following Monday.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2013, 10:13:35 AM »
Looks like Superheroes: A Never-Ending Battle.

http://www.pbs.org/superheroes

Offline Count Otto Black

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2013, 12:08:08 PM »
Concerning Stanley Kubrick's inspiration for that moment when Slim Pickens rides the A-bomb, given his age, was he more likely to have pinched it from a Superman comic, or a certain WWII US Navy recruiting poster which was presumably much more likely to be seen by an adult? I've attached the image - see what I mean?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 01:25:40 AM by Count Otto Black »

Offline Roygbiv666

  • Repeat Donor!
  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 795
  • Karma: 15
    • Standard Comics
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2013, 01:38:36 PM »
Attachment is empty.

Concerning Stanley Kubrick's inspiration for that moment when Slim Pickens rides the A-bomb, given his age, was he more likely to have pinched it from a Superman comic, or a certain WWII US Navy recruiting poster which was presumably much more likely to be seen by an adult? I've attached the image - see what I mean?

Offline Count Otto Black

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2013, 01:27:10 AM »
Oops! Something odd went wrong! Never mind - it's fixed - see what I mean now?

Offline JVJ (RIP)

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Karma: 58
  • paix
    • ImageS Magazine
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2013, 02:00:15 AM »
Concerning Stanley Kubrick's inspiration for that moment when Slim Pickens rides the A-bomb, given his age, was he more likely to have pinched it from a Superman comic, or a certain WWII US Navy recruiting poster which was presumably much more likely to be seen by an adult? I've attached the image - see what I mean?

JohnC brought that one up on Oct. 10, COB, and while I'm in agreement with you all that Kubrick most certainly had seen it at some point in his life, I don't believe that it was the impetus for the bomb-riding scene. The ENTIRE film is an orchestrated satire of war as seduction and conquering as climax. POE and Precious Bodily Fluids and all of the "insertions" and discussions of male-dominated seraglios in bomb-safe mine shafts all lead up to the final nuclear ejaculation. Major Kong is riding what that sailor might have been riding, but he arrived at the image from different sources.

IMHO.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Peace, Jim (|:{>

JVJ Publishing and VW inc.

Offline Count Otto Black

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 12
  • Karma: 0
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2013, 07:49:52 AM »
Leaving to one side the discussion of bomb-riding in Dr Strangelove (itself a blatant rip-off of the novel Fail-Safe, which was filmed simultaneously as a perfectly serious and rather good low-budget thriller by Sidney Lumet) and getting back on topic, it's a matter of record that Superman owed a great deal to Doc Savage, "The Man Of Bronze", who had a Fortress Of Solitude in the Antarctic and whose first name was Clark. Batman was inspired by, amongst others, the Shadow, Sherlock Holmes, and the villain in the film of a novel by the at the time very popular writer Mary Roberts Reinhardt called The Bat Whispers. And of course Zorro, a super-athletic champion of justice with a cape and a mask who pretends to be an ineffectual rich playboy and keeps his horse and other equipment in a secret cave under his mansion. Particularly the movie version of the character, played by the incredibly agile Douglas Fairbanks Sr. In some retellings of the Batman origin story, that's the movie the Wayne family are on their way home from seeing when they run into Joe Chill.

Also, a few years before Batman came along, there was a bad guy who appeared in Weird Tales a few times called Doctor Satan. If you can find the issue with the cover painting of him, he's wearing Batman's costume except that it's red. I've never heard him mentioned as a direct influence, but that image must have been visible on quite a few news-stands in the mid-thirties, and the very first preliminary sketches of Batman gave him a red costume - just saying... And of course the Joker's appearance was directly lifted from Conrad Veidt's character in The Man Who Laughs.

The Incredible Hulk was, as Stan Lee has said, originally based on Dr. Jekyll And Mister Hyde and Frankenstein (the Hulk was meant to have grey skin to make him look Frankenstein-ish, but it was changed to green in the second issue for technical reasons - apparently with four-colour printing it was really hard to print large areas of grey). And maybe he owed a certain amount to Heracles, a super-strong man of semi-divine parentage who, in the original story, was cursed with severe anger-management issues, and had to perform his most famous feats, some of which were forced upon him simply because they were ludicrously difficult, though some were genuinely useful, as a penance for "Hercing out" and murdering his entire family. And along the way he dealt with quite a few extremely specific serial killers who wouldn't have been out of place as Batman villains, including a guy who was obsessed with making guests exactly the same length as his spare bed, even if it meant stretching or trimming them, and another
fellow who had somehow trained a herd of horses to eat people. He even had a recurring supervillain - the goddess Hera.

Alas, not every Greek hero could have Zeus for a father, but never mind - even if you were 100% mortal, the gods might favour you with special equipment, usually forged by Haphaestus (who also built Talos, the loser in the first ever superhero team vs. giant robot showdown). Indestructible armour, swords that cut anything, helmets of invisibility - the works! As used by Perseus. So already we've got the classic superhero dichotomy between heroes who are innately gifted because they're more than human, and those who are mere humans but own unique special equipment, usually of magical or extraterrestrial origin.

And of course there was Achilles, a classic superhero who, thanks to exposure to what in those days had to be a magic river, but would in the comics inevitably have been a radioactive meteorite, had impenetrable skin - except in one place, because superheroes are no fun without a weakness. Though if Homer's Iliad is anything to go by, he was a retarded gay psychopath, so maybe he wasn't quite the traditional superhero after all... Then again, Troy might have been a far better movie if Brad Pitt had played him like that! And what about Jason and the Argonauts - the first-ever superhero team? There were even a few over-specialised characters included to allow "Aquaman manages to be useful" subplots. And a special guest appearance by Heracles, who left very early in the tale because it wasn't really about him, but he had to be in it somewhere.

For thousands of years, heroes, real or imagined, have been assumed to be "super" in some way, often by virtue of looking human but secretly being something else, just like Superman. Of course, if you don't have the cultural concept of life on other planets, then instead of being extraterrestrial, your heroes have to be at least semi-divine. About 2,000 years ago, a whole raft of people ranging from Buddha to Alexander the Great were popularly supposed to have been born of virgins, the logic being that if your mother had never slept with a human, then your father must have been a god, and if you make a great impact on the world, then obviously your father was a god, therefore your mother must have been a virgin (which is the reason the Virgin Birth story was worked into the New Testament). Some of the later statues of Alexander even take it for granted that he had horns! As for supervillains, them too - Attila the Hun (who, incidentally, was a dwarf) was known as "The Scourge Of God" by Christians, who assumed that anyone that unstoppable must be a supernatural being sent by God as a punishment to Christendom for not being Christian enough.

Even Robin Hood seems to have been a superhero in the true sense of the word. In Dark Ages England, the common people would have been afraid to wear green, since it was the colour of the fairies, who were taken very seriously indeed back then. Robin, along with Jack, is a very old generic name for male supernatural beings such as Robin Goodfellow, so somebody called Robin who wears the clothing of the fairies, lives in the woods just like them, and is incredibly good with a bow, the fairies' traditional weapon, has a distinct whiff of the supernatural about him. Indeed, way back then, a strange hooded man dressed as a fairy would have been at least as frightening to people who had reason to be scared of him as Batman would have been if he'd actually existed. "Tax-gatherers are a superstitious, cowardly lot - I need a costume that will strike fear into their hearts... That's it! I shall become a fairy!" How times change!

Offline Roygbiv666

  • Repeat Donor!
  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 795
  • Karma: 15
    • Standard Comics
Re: Character "Borrowing"
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2013, 08:31:29 AM »
Doctor Satan:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-man-who-chained-the-lightning-paul-ernst/1017476140?ean=2940000105498
http://weirdtalesmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/brundage-8-35.jpg
http://www.pulpfest.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Weird-Tales-36-03.jpg

meh, it has horns/cowl.

Also, a few years before Batman came along, there was a bad guy who appeared in Weird Tales a few times called Doctor Satan. If you can find the issue with the cover painting of him, he's wearing Batman's costume except that it's red. I've never heard him mentioned as a direct influence, but that image must have been visible on quite a few news-stands in the mid-thirties, and the very first preliminary sketches of Batman gave him a red costume - just saying... And of course the Joker's appearance was directly lifted from Conrad Veidt's character in The Man Who Laughs.