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Author Topic: New comics sales figures  (Read 4510 times)

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Offline misappear

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New comics sales figures
« on: June 02, 2012, 10:23:18 AM »
I was trolling around and stumbled on a site call The Comics Beat.  (comicsbeat.com). The have the sales charts for most of the big publishers.  I was looking at the numbers for some of the DC titles and I was stunned. It appears that the average "52" title sells about 32,000.  There are 18 titles at less than 20,000, of which a handfull are at less than 10,000. 

I don't know what I was expecting, but certainly not that abyss. 

I worked in the Direct Sales department at Marvel Comics in the early 1990's, and I remember the numbers we used to generate.  How can this industry survive? 

I remember one discussion over the possibility of reprinting Surfer #50.  We couldn't  justify it unless we could sell 35,000 copies of the reprint!

Maybe I just can't get past how thing have absolutely disintegrated in the last 20 years.

Wow.

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New comics sales figures
« on: June 02, 2012, 10:23:18 AM »

Offline sandmountainslim

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2012, 11:21:25 AM »
Was that counting Digital Sales? 
I was reading The New 52 Superman on Comixology until I finally tired of the technical problems I had with their reader on my pc.

Offline John C

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2012, 12:18:38 PM »
It's basic attrition.  When you pay more attention to "fresh starts" or "rigorous continuity" (or both) than to putting out a good product (that is, telling fun or important stories), you lose any hopes of finding a new audience.  And with the same audience that's been around for a few decades, economic or literal attrition is going to start setting in eventually.

But I don't think DC or Marvel are even in the comic book business anymore.  I think they're basically low-rent marketing think-tanks.  Try out ideas on the captive audience, and push the ones that work out to a big-budget theatrical release.

Offline misappear

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2012, 01:07:25 PM »
Slim,

It just said sales. I didn't investigate enough to know the perameter

-D

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2012, 01:24:53 PM »
But I don't think DC or Marvel are even in the comic book business anymore.  I think they're basically low-rent marketing think-tanks.  Try out ideas on the captive audience, and push the ones that work out to a big-budget theatrical release.

That, and intellectual properties. It's easier to maintain a trademark on a character's image by publishing a monthly comic than coming out with a movie.

How do they keep going? They (DC, Marvel) are basically subsidized by Warner Brothers and Disney. They don't need to make money. Kinda like Old Lady Carlson and WKRP. WKRP? Anyone?


Offline misappear

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »
Let's look at an imaginary, hypothetical, couldn't have happened, "Al Gore won Florida" scenario.  Suppose back in the early '90's when Marvel went public, and the Spiderman movie project was still up for grabs but gonna happen, someone floated the totally untrue but delicious sounding rumor that the big dog of the day, James Cameron, was going to direct the soon to be finalized Spiderman movie.  Imagine the bump in the stock price, I mean, theoretical bump in the stock price.  Probably a little more business worthy than Reed getting a vasectomy or something. 

So what is being suggested is that Marvel and DC are just sounding boards for future movie projects?  It's an interesting conjecture, but wouldn't you want people with at least a modicum of talent actually writing the stuff?

Offline John C

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 02:05:20 PM »
I can't resist the setup...

They have a modicum of talent.  No more, but that's all they need.

I'm not sure how serious I am, exactly, but my understanding is that studio executives basically just get a feel for the character and decide whether it'll work on the big screen.  That doesn't involve actually reading the comics, just getting a quick thumbnail.  The script writer might want to read, but also might not.

Roy's right, though.  They're also trademark warehouses.  After about five years of disuse, or one flubbed court case where the defendant explains that you can't damage an inactive brand, the Superman name is up for grabs.  For that, you want less than a modicum of talent, because it's cheaper to produce those books.

Anybody know what the current page-rates are at DC/Marvel?  I'd be interested in seeing how well their costs match up to their revenue, figuring they get about a dollar per comic sold, I'd imagine.

(And the real question is, do they know what their purpose is?  They talk a lot about marketshare and whether certain books are profitable, which is at odds to common arithmetic.  Three quarters of nothing isn't much.)

Offline misappear

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 03:05:01 PM »
I was thinking that at $4, the companies would gross about 40%, or $1.60.  I can't see a comic costing more than 25 to 30 cents to print, and that for a fairly deluxe format.  I don't know what the creative people make anymore.  I do know that many small companies cut the creators in for a percentage of net, with literally nothing upfront. 

See that's where it gets confusing to me.  You've got pencils, inks, script, letters, and production costs.  Does that mean that if the big two make a couple of thousand off a monthly comic, then that's ok? 

Course there's ad revenue.  But really, how much can ads cost these days with such poor circulation? 

Ironic twist.  When the various scanners post up new stuff on torrent sites, they usually cut out the ads.  Advertisers can't get no love. 

I really would like to know the extent of the impact of illegal downloads.  Not that that will ever go away, but just curious.  Course illegals would decline if the cost/benefit of the product wasn't so ridiculously out of line. 

Like i'm ever going to actually pay $60 for an archive reprint of some dubious second banana hero from 1941. 

-D

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 08:47:14 PM »
Some quick math.

Say a title sells 20,000/month @ $4/book. Over a year the total sold is $960,000. Assuming DC/Marvel gets 40%, that's a $384,000.

Say 25 titles/month is $9.216M, or $9,216,000. I'd like 9 million dollars please, but for a company is that a lot?

Of course, DC/Marvel get their money from merchandising too - t-shirts (why can't I get a straight-up Captain America shirt that looks like Cap's? Too expensive to make given all the designs on it?), action figures, statues, etc.

Where was I going with this?

Lessee, at its peak I think Captain Marvel sold about 1 million copies per month back in the 1940s. That's .. $1.2M/year @40% = $480,000. For one book. In 1940. 72 years ago.

If the 'average' title sold half that, that's $240,000/book/year. Say 25 titles, that's ...$6M/year. In 1940. 72 years ago.

Yeah - WTF?

Offline JVJ (RIP)

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 10:33:05 PM »
Interesting numbers, Roy,
but I think you need to reconsider "25 titles per month". Fawcett MAY have had a dozen books/mo at the circulation heights of 1943/44. Fiction House had about half that many titles. DC MIGHT have had 25 titles/mo in the early '40s but I am leery of that. Marvel perhaps a dozen. Different times. Big companies were not that big back then.

Also, the wholesalers were not paying 4¢ per comic to the publisher. More like 1.5¢ and you have to subtract the printing and production costs from those big numbers.

Still...

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Online Snard

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2012, 04:36:13 AM »
Interesting numbers, Roy,
but I think you need to reconsider "25 titles per month". Fawcett MAY have had a dozen books/mo at the circulation heights of 1943/44. Fiction House had about half that many titles. DC MIGHT have had 25 titles/mo in the early '40s but I am leery of that. Marvel perhaps a dozen. Different times. Big companies were not that big back then.

Also, the wholesalers were not paying 4¢ per comic to the publisher. More like 1.5¢ and you have to subtract the printing and production costs from those big numbers.

Still...

Peace, Jim (|:{>

In both cases, there is also the advertising revenue to consider (and, I have no idea what that is.) Some early books had little or no ads in them; modern books seem to be 50% ads.

(Edit: Oops, I guess I should read the whole thread before replying. Ad revenue has already been discussed, I guess...)

Offline John C

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2012, 06:53:40 AM »
In terms of advertising revenue, I can't guess at fixed numbers, but it seems likely that the rates are inversely proportional to the price of the comic.  If you buy a comic for four bucks, that has to be to compensate for something.  And that makes sense.

(For what it's worth, looking up newspaper advertising, with a couple of wild four-digit aberrations, a column-inch doesn't generally go for more than three hundred bucks.  The overwhelming majority are less than twenty, which seems to also generally be about the price for papers in smaller, affluent areas that might match comics.  Does a column-inch match a page?  Do we need to find out how many column-inches to a page?  Anybody want to just call DC or Marvel in the morning?)

Now, best I can figure bumbling around the Internet, it looks like page rates are roughly a hundred dollars per page for a typical nobody writer/artist.  So, figure it costs somewhere on the order of eight thousand (script, pencils, inks, each at a hundred for twenty-five-ish pages, plus miscellaneous worker bees and a cover).  It could be lower, but it's also higher in cases where you hire a superstar type, so that seems like a good starting point.

For printing costs, I see estimates (from Mexico, which sounds like a good lower bound) of about thirty cents.  And Diamond gets a 60% cut (I thought they took more--I come from a world where every middle-man takes half the profit, so expected more like 75%).  That leaves DC or Marvel with somewhere around $1.30, assuming their printer (Quebecor, was it?) can match the Mexican prices.

Assuming all of that is right, and ignoring advertising for the moment, a book needs to sell somewhere around six thousand copies to break even.  That seems like a more convenient unit of measurement than trying to guess how much money is "good."  Every extra six thousand issues moved is a failing book that could be floated for another month, basically.

Also consider that office space in midtown Manhattan is about seventy bucks per square foot (advertised, so assume higher after some bait and switch), which is equivalent to about fifty comics sold.  I'm not saying that DC covers that cost, but rather that Warner could get that much by booting DC out and renting the space to a shady hedge fund, so they should ideally make that much money.  That means that the 32k originally cited, minus operating costs, allows them to cover the equivalent of rent for roughly ten standard office cubicles (32k - 6k, /50x50).

Advertising-wise, I'll hazard a guess that the rate for a full page can't be much more than a thousand (figuring the above column-inch of twenty, times 6x10, gives $1200), so ten pages of advertising is another four or five cubicles (or two books that can be floated).

It's not a terrible business to be in, but as Roy points out, that's less revenue than before inflation, and the direction isn't suggesting much growth.

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2012, 07:44:56 AM »
Well, I did say "quick" math. ;-)

Y'know, when I was a kid, I obviously didn't think too much about the finances, but in retrospect, I'm pretty sure that I thought that writers/artists lived in mansions. Because those guys that hit the little ball with the stick and run around in circles get paid lots of money, therefore someone doing actual important work (making comics) must get paid more.

If only. Robert Downy, Jr. stands to clear at least $50M from the Avengers alone (not saying he doesn't deserve it, it's not some tax imposed on me by the government, so who cares). So comics make money indirectly for their parent companies, just not much actual profit on their own. If only the switch to digital had happened/started 10 years ago and they had an actual strategy to get them in the hands of kids (Playstation Network, XBox360, gaming sites - wherever kids go online), then act like a pusher - first taste is free, etc.

Of course, comics aren't written for kids/all ages anymore, just inbred fanboys in a continually dwindling and self-absorbed market.

Offline Yoc

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2012, 10:22:48 AM »
'inbred fanboy' is pretty harsh there Roy.  Likely everyone here was one for a while.  Just sayin'
An interesting thread guys.

Offline Roygbiv666

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Re: New comics sales figures
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 10:41:53 AM »
Sorry, by 'inbred' I really meant that the fanbase doesn't seem to be admitting new members, so its just the same group of people, not literally 'inbred'.

'inbred fanboy' is pretty harsh there Roy.  Likely everyone here was one for a while.  Just sayin'
An interesting thread guys.