developed-responsibility
- +

Author Topic: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour  (Read 7933 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alessandro Bottero

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: 0
John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« on: February 10, 2011, 04:23:58 PM »
hi. another of my questions. :)

i saw in wikipedia that JOhn Buscema did 11 issues on Dell Four Colours, and precisely
DellFour Color:#684: Helen of Troy (1956), #762: The Sharkfighters; #775: Sir Lancelot and Brian, #794: The Count of Monte Cristo, #910: The Vikings, #927: Luke Short's Top Gun (adapted from novel Test Pit by Luke Short), #944: The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, #1006: Hercules, #1077, 1130: The Deputy, #1139: Spartacus

they were comic book adaptions of some movies from 1956 till 1960.
Since the Dell-Four colours situations is very complex, i was wondering.....do you believe these issues are in Public Domain, or not?
they were interesting, because they were Buscema pre-Marvel work, and they show some hints of the future works (particolarly the Vikings and Hercules)
if someone could help me, i was happy, and i could think translating some of these issues in my upcoming Project Golden Age.

Digital Comic Museum

John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« on: February 10, 2011, 04:23:58 PM »

Offline JonTheScanner

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
  • Karma: 52
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 04:32:19 PM »
Even if the comics' copyrights were not renewed, I'm pretty sure the comics would not be in the public domain if the copyrights on the movies themselves had been renewed.

Offline Geo (RIP)

  • Global Moderator
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3513
  • Karma: 40
  • Moderator
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 04:36:00 PM »
At this time it's been very hard to know for sure which issues of the Dells are in PD status or not. Maybe at a later date a lot of these will be cleared up one way or the other. So at this time we are putting a hold on most if not all Dell issues just to be safe.

Geo
Filling holes, by ONE book at a time

Offline josemas

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 194
  • Karma: 1
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 07:35:24 AM »

i saw in wikipedia that JOhn Buscema did 11 issues on Dell Four Colours, and precisely
DellFour Color:#684: Helen of Troy (1956), #762: The Sharkfighters; #775: Sir Lancelot and Brian, #794: The Count of Monte Cristo, #910: The Vikings, #927: Luke Short's Top Gun (adapted from novel Test Pit by Luke Short), #944: The 7th Voyage of Sinbad, #1006: Hercules, #1077, 1130: The Deputy, #1139: Spartacus

they were comic book adaptions of some movies from 1956 till 1960.
Since the Dell-Four colours situations is very complex, i was wondering.....do you believe these issues are in Public Domain, or not?
they were interesting, because they were Buscema pre-Marvel work, and they show some hints of the future works (particolarly the Vikings and Hercules)


I recently picked up a copy of Dell's adaptation of The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad and its being a sword and sorcery story makes it a real precursor to Buscema's later work on Conan.

Best

Joe

Offline josemas

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 194
  • Karma: 1
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2011, 07:42:00 AM »
Even if the comics' copyrights were not renewed, I'm pretty sure the comics would not be in the public domain if the copyrights on the movies themselves had been renewed.

I'm pretty sure one doesn't affect the other.  The adaptations are different from the movie.  Always condensed and sometimes at variance from the movie.  This is one reason why they had their own separate copyright in the first place.  Different, if similar material, requiring a copyright all its own.

Best

Joe

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 03:32:51 PM »
It depends, Joe, on what exactly one plans to do.  If you're burning to DVD to sell, then you're (probably) OK because you're only interested in the public domain work itself.  However, if you plan to use the adaptation within another work, you're now creating a (second-hand) derivative of the original, and "underlying rights" are very important in many courts.

That's why you can sell Fleischer Superman DVDs but can't market your own line of Superman comics based on the cartoons.

Oh.  And remember the "probably" back up top?  Just because you see it as "only reselling the public domain work," it doesn't mean that the other copyright owner and the court won't decide that the adaptation can't have existed without the underlying copyrighted work...

Offline josemas

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 194
  • Karma: 1
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 07:16:15 AM »
It depends, Joe, on what exactly one plans to do.  If you're burning to DVD to sell, then you're (probably) OK because you're only interested in the public domain work itself.  However, if you plan to use the adaptation within another work, you're now creating a (second-hand) derivative of the original, and "underlying rights" are very important in many courts.

That's why you can sell Fleischer Superman DVDs but can't market your own line of Superman comics based on the cartoons.

Oh.  And remember the "probably" back up top?  Just because you see it as "only reselling the public domain work," it doesn't mean that the other copyright owner and the court won't decide that the adaptation can't have existed without the underlying copyrighted work...

John, I'm quite familiar with what you mean by underlying rights.  I've been a film researcher for a couple of decades and copyright and PD status comes up a good bit when dealing with old films.  I've read up on some of the cases as they pertain to films.  The courts are by no means consistent when it comes to underlying rights. 
Still I understand why you guys are hesitant to perhaps host some titles that seem to be PD as I have seen examples in the film world where some of the big film corporations have scared off people who have dealt with PD items by claiming some variants of the underlying copyright argument.  Most small companies will immediately back off because, understandably, they just don't have the big bucks to fight these corporate giants.

Best

Joe

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 08:53:15 AM »
I didn't mean entirely in the context of this site, Joe (though, yes, if it was my risk, I'd probably be more liberal with my definition of public domain), but rather for whatever Alessandro's purposes are in the end.  Printing a translation carries more liability than simply reprinting, because you may translating protected material in the process.  And as you point out, it's a crap-shoot as to what your jurisdiction believes about underlying rights.

Which is why it's important to point out (again) that none of us are lawyers.  Talking to an IP lawyer now will let you know what's workable in your neck of the woods, and it'll probably be far cheaper than losing an unexpected copyright case in a lot of situations.

Offline Alessandro Bottero

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: 0
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2011, 12:07:13 PM »
i don't deny my goal is to publish some Buscema's PD work, and i already found some wonderful story in the DCM library. My question about Buscema's "movie comic books" (so to speak) was made beacuse these stories echoes (maybe more than others) the future Marvel's works of Big John, and this gives them an historical value.

I know you can't give me an "official" answer, but i take your opinion in high regard, and it's always intersting to learn something more about PD and copyright stuff.

for example i discovered, as a fact, the italian law allow me to use as PD, creative works wich  are PD under foreign laws (such U.S.A., or Canada).


Offline JVJ (RIP)

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Karma: 58
  • paix
    • ImageS Magazine
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2011, 05:53:16 PM »
Did you know, Alessandro,
that Buscema BEGAN his career at "Marvel" in 1948? My favorite JB work is at Orbit/Our Publishing in the very early 1950s.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Peace, Jim (|:{>

JVJ Publishing and VW inc.

Offline Alessandro Bottero

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: 0
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 04:52:39 AM »
thanks jim.
Buscema's western in The Westerner (orbit) is real good, but since in Italy Buscema is know for his Conan, Avengers and "marvel post-1960" works, something like The Vikings, or Simbad, has a bigger appeal.

anyway all the stories sci-fi and horror for Adventures into the Unknown and Forbidden Worlds are real good.

This "Buscema topic" is the "living proof" of my theory: Golden Age comics is full of hidden gems. So far (i'm speaking for Italian comic book readers) Golden Age was Timely-Marvel and National-DC Comics, and nothing else, because we had an italian translation of SOME of the Captain America, Superman, Batman Golden Age stories.
but outside this almost no one knows anything at all about Quality, Fiction house, Fox, Dell, Fawcett, and so on.
why? Because no one translated these stories in Italy. no one read them, no one know they exsist. (i'm speakling for the "majority". there are few good critics wich know this field)

Offline JVJ (RIP)

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Karma: 58
  • paix
    • ImageS Magazine
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 10:43:34 PM »
I like his romance and the Wanted art from Orbit, too, Allesandro,
and he actually did a few freelance jobs for Atlas in the early '50s and for Pre-Marvel in 1959-60.

His ACG stuff IS great and very under-promoted and -appreciated.

What is hard for me to understand is how ANYBODY in this day and age can NOT know about all of these GA companies. There is DCM, GAC, reprint books, articles, Alter Ego, the Price Guide, and so much more that for any fans not to know about GA companies besides Marvel and DC seems to me to be a deliberate kind of ignorance.

Those Italian fans and everyone else should know by now that there are many GA great artists and companies and comics out there. If they don't, then we as comic book historians and fans have done a pretty lousy job of promoting them, and the fans haven't been paying much attention, for the last forty years.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 12:12:39 AM by JVJ »
Peace, Jim (|:{>

JVJ Publishing and VW inc.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 05:40:21 AM »
That's the same old discussion, isn't it, Jim?  If you don't already know what you're looking for, if you don't even know there's something TO look for, how do you find it?

Even with a physical source like Alter Ego, you need to know that it exists and has value.  Prior to hearing about this run (and leading with Infinity, Inc., helped), I had never considered "fanzines" to be worth any more than the hand-stapled mimeographed conspiracy theory 'zines I used to see in low-rent shops back in the '80s.

Plus, look at it this way:  How many television or radio shows have you enjoyed where you can name everybody who ever worked on the project, their source material, and so forth?  Most are content to merely consume.

Offline JVJ (RIP)

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1052
  • Karma: 58
  • paix
    • ImageS Magazine
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 12:03:06 PM »
There is truth in what you say, John,
and the challenge has ALWAYS been WHERE to collate the data from millions of man-hours of research so that it IS available? Jerry Bails and Hames Ware's Who's Who of American Comic Books in the early '70s was a start. Then with the advent of the Internet and the on-line WW version in 1999, it's been relatively easy to get at an overview of any artists' GA career. When you add in Google, Wikipedia, and the GCD, it's even more accessible. All you have to do is ASK a question.

Perhaps it's the unquestioned life of most fans that bothers me. Because, if you liked a John Buscema Conan story, it bewilders me that you wouldn't at least do a Google search on him or look him up in Wikipedia. There you would discover at least a capsule history of his career. Go down to "References" and you'd "discover" the Grand Comics Database. All it takes is wanting to know.

The same can be said of TV and radio these days. If I WANTED to know the cast and credits, they are easily discoverable. One would expect that the desire to get more of a good thing (i.e. John Buscema art) would lead people to these resources. According to Allessandro, it hasn't, and I find that discouraging - as I've spent the last 40 years of my life trying to encourage just that.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Peace, Jim (|:{>

JVJ Publishing and VW inc.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: John Buscema's Work on Dell Four Colour
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 04:09:24 PM »
Well, consider them "casual fans," rather than fanatics.  Or fans of the "literature" over the "art," which is a camp I'm mostly in.  I enjoy the books, but...usually don't care who the people are behind them, or at least, not in relation to the comic itself.  Honestly, I was probably reading comics for almost fifteen years before realizing that the names on the splash page might have some utility, and I was still baffled when Image started up, because who could possibly care that a bunch of artists moved out on their own...?

But still, that shouldn't be that discouraging.  Fans (despite moves by Marvel and DC to the contrary) aren't a stagnant pool of readers.  They wax and wane in their interests, and enter and exit throughout their lives.  You might catch them the next time they pass through.  That a baseball fan doesn't know that the Dodgers came out of Brooklyn (to pick a real-world example) isn't a huge failure, I don't think.  You might be able to make a case for drivers who don't understand Newtonian motion, though...

Now, if you must feel discouraged, aim it at the people who publish books and web pages without checking their asserted "facts."  If you're positioning yourself as an expert on a topic or a character (I don't really want to single out a Two-Morrows book, but the Blue Beetle book read like it was tossed off over lunch), not doing your homework shows a complete lack of ability and ethic.  We need to fix them.