- +

Author Topic: Fawcett: Are the Marvel family titles PD?  (Read 3731 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alessandro Bottero

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 33
  • Karma: 0
Fawcett: Are the Marvel family titles PD?
« on: September 26, 2010, 07:15:27 AM »
Hello, i'm from Italy, and i would like to thank for this wonderful site. Browsing the database i saw in the FAWCETT section, some names wich puzzled me.
Captain Marvel Adventures
Captain MArvel jr.
Mary MArvel.

Aren't this characters being purchased by DC Comics in 1980?
Maybe Fawcett GA titles are PD, even if DC purchased the characters?

Does it means, maybe, the DC-Marvel Family is -for copyright issues- "another" thing, different from the Fawcett's one?

hope i'm clear.
BEst Alessandro Bottero
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 06:16:17 PM by Yoc »

Digital Comic Museum

Fawcett: Are the Marvel family titles PD?
« on: September 26, 2010, 07:15:27 AM »

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2010, 07:59:22 AM »
Hi, Alessandro--

There isn't a legal concept of a "character."  Characters are parts of stories, and stories are the "fixed works" that get copyrights.

Copyrights, at the time of publication, needed to be renewed twenty-eight years after publication to remain in effect.  Fawcett didn't renew many of the books when required, so their copyrights expired.

Nobody knows what DC bought, but they weren't all the copyrights, since most didn't exist by 1980.  They may have bought trademarks, meaning only they can use the Marvel Family to sell things.  But they might not, since the character wasn't used much for a few years, possibly killing the mark.  Whether they did or not, they have earned that trademark by being the only company to do so for many years.  Also, DC has the copyright of anything they published with those characters.

So, you should always check copyrights for yourself if you're going to use the books for anything other than personal use (you're allowed to read or own anything, but never trust anybody else's say-so when business is at stake), but the books themselves should be in the public domain.

I hope that helps.

Offline happyhuman

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 2
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2011, 01:53:11 PM »
I have follow-up questions regarding the old Captain Marvel comics, if that’s ok?

I know the difference between a copyright and a trademark so assuming DC Comics probably has the TM for the title SHAZAM (and Marvel Comics the title Captain Marvel) no one can publish any comic book with those titles the probably even the logo of Captain Marvel

But can someone (assuming a comic is in PD) reprint a Captain Marvel comic and keep the character design (as it is TM nowadays)?  And can a PD comic be reprinted but with its art redrawn? For example, changing Captain Marvel’s chest logo and color?

Offline narfstar

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
  • Karma: 74
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2011, 08:10:41 PM »
A pd comic can be reprinted as is with no changes. The only thing is the cover can not carry the trademark material

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 08:09:26 AM »
You're over-thinking trademarks.  A trademark is a brand.  They're protected to prevent unfair competition.

Therefore, as long as it's immediately clear that you're not trying to use someone else's brand (trademark) as a draw for your product, you should be as safe...to the extent that the trademark owner's lawyer understands the law.

If you're thinking about it, really check with a lawyer, since trusting anybody here isn't going to help you if you're sued.

However, the guideline I'd use is, if I saw this book (or other product) as it's normally sold (full picture of the cover and the "above the fold" logo area), is there any other group I might think produced it?  If there's any chance a consumer might make the mistake of thinking that "Captain Marvel Adventures" was produced by Marvel or DC, then it's almost certainly going to be viewed as trademark infringement.

Normally, that's ONLY as the product is sold, though.  Once you've gotten through the sales process, I don't understand there to be any trademark problems.  The main character can drive a BMW in a novel and hate it or love it, without BMW asking you to cease and desist, for example.

Though they might take issue if you use the word "Beemer" to refer generically to any high-end car, since that could be viewed as an attempt to genericize the mark, however.  Xerox used to be big on that.  And Microsoft is currently going through some growing pains in finding out that "Windows" isn't a protectable trademark in some jurisdictions, since the term has been generic in many fields for, y'know, centuries (and in computers since the Xerox Star report).

Offline happyhuman

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 2
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 03:34:22 PM »
You're over-thinking trademarks.  A trademark is a brand.  They're protected to prevent unfair competition.

Therefore, as long as it's immediately clear that you're not trying to use someone else's brand (trademark) as a draw for your product, you should be as safe...to the extent that the trademark owner's lawyer understands the law.

If you're thinking about it, really check with a lawyer, since trusting anybody here isn't going to help you if you're sued.

However, the guideline I'd use is, if I saw this book (or other product) as it's normally sold (full picture of the cover and the "above the fold" logo area), is there any other group I might think produced it?  If there's any chance a consumer might make the mistake of thinking that "Captain Marvel Adventures" was produced by Marvel or DC, then it's almost certainly going to be viewed as trademark infringement.

Normally, that's ONLY as the product is sold, though.  Once you've gotten through the sales process, I don't understand there to be any trademark problems.  The main character can drive a BMW in a novel and hate it or love it, without BMW asking you to cease and desist, for example.

Though they might take issue if you use the word "Beemer" to refer generically to any high-end car, since that could be viewed as an attempt to genericize the mark, however.  Xerox used to be big on that.  And Microsoft is currently going through some growing pains in finding out that "Windows" isn't a protectable trademark in some jurisdictions, since the term has been generic in many fields for, y'know, centuries (and in computers since the Xerox Star report).

It just a thought project, as I don’t think there’s money to gain by publishing old Captain Marvel comics or any PD GA comics in my country as no one knows them and/or care about them + I have no money for a lawyer : )

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 07:30:38 AM »
It just a thought project, as I don’t think there’s money to gain by publishing old Captain Marvel comics or any PD GA comics in my country as no one knows them and/or care about them + I have no money for a lawyer : )

I can see that.  I just need to make it clear that relying on people on the Internet for legal advice is generally a terrible idea.  There may be actual cases on the books where these situations were brought to court, and the decision would then be used to settle future cases.  Nobody here would have a clue, but a lawyer would know where to look.

Mind you, I'm sort of a "seat of my pants" kind of guy, and probably wouldn't check with a lawyer, myself.  But licensing laws being what they are, it's probably safer for me to rip off Disney than give anything that might qualify as "legal advice"...

Offline philcom55

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: 1
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2011, 08:47:34 AM »
Following on from the original question, I wonder if anyone has any views on the PD status of the original British Marvelman comics of the 1950s - especially now that Marvel Comics are starting to reprint them under their own logo?

 - Phil Rushton

Offline Bob Hughes

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: 0
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2011, 02:30:05 PM »
Well they're probably all PD in America because they were never published here.  But the ownership was all straightened out across the pond and returned to the creator fairly recently.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2011, 04:05:05 PM »
Technically, the UK doesn't have copyrights (regardless of terminology), but rather creator rights, and the (ever-retroactive) rule is for the life of the creator, plus seventy years, these days.  I'm not a lawyer and I'm even less of one in the UK, but I understand that to mean the life of the latest-surviving participant.

I'm betting nobody involved with the book was dead in 1941, let alone all of them.

In the United States...it's basically a crapshoot.  Formally, due to treaty obligations, our courts are required to respect any other treaty member's copyright laws, with the caveat that you can't sue for infringement in the United States until/unless you register the copyright and can't collect damages prior to registration.

That sounds good, except that many works that arrived late to the United States had their clocks reset.  1942's Noi Vivi (an Italian film) premiered in the United States in 1986 and the Copyright Office grants it that copyright date.  Why?  Because prior to that date, it was unpublished, which itself has a long protection term.  (That ignores copyright restoration, which I don't believe applies here.)

Here's a tiny glimpse into that world:

http://blog.librarylaw.com/librarylaw/2009/04/more-messiness-with-copyright-duration-of-foreign-works.html

and the update, which retracts what was important to him, but not really to us:

http://blog.librarylaw.com/librarylaw/2009/05/retraction-more-messiness-with-.html

Offline happyhuman

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 2
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2012, 11:15:47 AM »
I recently visited the PDSH wikia and saw something new there about the Marvel Family comics

The site claims that a lot of issues that feature the Marvel characters and the whole Marvel Family series have been renewed, does that mean that those titles weren’t really in the public domain all this time? Or that they were renewed but the renewal time has ended and they fell to public domain again?

http://pdsh.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Marvel
http://pdsh.wikia.com/wiki/Mary_Marvel
http://pdsh.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Marvel_Jr.

Offline bchat

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 186
  • Karma: 22
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2012, 07:50:02 PM »
The site claims that a lot of issues that feature the Marvel characters and the whole Marvel Family series have been renewed, does that mean that those titles weren’t really in the public domain all this time?

Yes.

Offline happyhuman

  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Karma: 2
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2012, 10:48:45 AM »
The site claims that a lot of issues that feature the Marvel characters and the whole Marvel Family series have been renewed, does that mean that those titles weren’t really in the public domain all this time?

Yes.

Thank you for the quick answer, do you happen to know, if what the PDSH Wikia site says is correct then when will those comics be in PD?

Offline bchat

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 186
  • Karma: 22
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2012, 01:55:14 PM »
The site claims that a lot of issues that feature the Marvel characters and the whole Marvel Family series have been renewed, does that mean that those titles weren’t really in the public domain all this time?

Yes.

Thank you for the quick answer, do you happen to know, if what the PDSH Wikia site says is correct then when will those comics be in PD?

The Copyrights are effective on those books (that have had a renewal filed) for 95 years after the date of publication, so ... not anytime soon.

Online Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15032
  • Karma: 57
  • 14 Years Strong!
Re: Fawcett: Are the MArvel family titles PD?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »
The Fawcett comics have long been a problem for us. 
By the time GAC opened, Fawcett copyrights were already widely and long assumed to be invalid due to the confusing legal situation between the company and DC.  In the rush to get DCM moving, they got "grandfathered in."

While we've suspected that they weren't all public domain, we haven't had time to undertake the project of researching the enormous run and haven't been keen on repeatedly answering the question "why are there so many Fawcett books missing?" and dealing with people uploading the books that "everybody" knows are public domain.

The upshot is that we're comfortable hosting them at the moment, pending time for a thorough review, but that may change quickly depending on legislation like SOPA and PIPA in Congress (for which everybody should be screaming at your local lawmaker to stop) and--as always--anybody planning to use any comic should verify the copyright status for themselves and check with a Intellectual Property lawyer to understand your own rights and risks.

-The Staff,
DCM