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Author Topic: Kirby Dynamics  (Read 3454 times)

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Offline robsteibel

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Kirby Dynamics
« on: September 04, 2010, 04:32:55 PM »
Hi,

My name is Rob Steibel and I recently started a daily weblog called Kirby Dynamics.

http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/

Does anybody have an idea of what Kirby comics are considered "public domain." I seem to be the only comics blogger on the internet not posting complete stories because I don't want to violate anyone's copyright -- do you guys know: what Kirby stories are unquestionably public domain so I can post them on the Kirby Dynamics weblog? I guess I should research this myself but I'm really busy and would appreciate any info.

Thanks a lot for your time,

R-

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Kirby Dynamics
« on: September 04, 2010, 04:32:55 PM »

Offline darkmark (RIP)

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 07:18:34 AM »
My guess is, it'd be pretty hard to find any Kirby comics that are p.d. right now.  But I'm not certain of the legalities and such...I just know that we can't carry very many of them on this site.

Offline robsteibel

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 10:18:45 AM »
Thanks, I'm starting to think the same thing. I just emailed Joe Simon via his website to see if they might allow me to use some stories on my weblog.

I wonder if Jack's stories for Atlas and DC during the 50s are PD? Does anyone here know the cut off date for stories becoming PD? I just don't know anything about this topic and would appreciate any help. I hate the fact that you can see complete Kirby stories all over the internet, but I'm not allowed to use any because I'm trying to be respectful of the copyright holders.

Thanks again for the reply, and thanks  to all in advance for any info,

R-

Offline John C

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 12:07:34 PM »
I'm glossing over as many irrelevant details as I can and apologize if I leave something out, but the short version is that anything published prior to 1989 can be in the public domain if it was published without a copyright notice (and there was no attempt to fix the problem within six months to five years, depending on the publication date) as well as anything published prior to 1964 WITH a valid notice but no renewal twenty-eight (actually, 27-29) years later.

Are there Kirby stories that fit?  Sure, especially from companies like Fox--I don't think anybody's ever found a renewal for a Fox book.  But almost certainly not from anything published by Marvel or DC (or a precursor of either), because they paid lawyers to take care of that sort of thing when renewal time came.

(It sounds like you probably already know where to look, but most renewal listings prior to 1979 can be found in that year's Catalog of Copyright Entries, which Google Books currently keeps copies of--they're indexed by title of periodical or author of contribution to periodical.  Post-1977, the Copyright Office website has a decent search engine--and yes, there's overlap in dates, but not in content.  Those are the renewals, meaning publication dates divide around 1950.)

However, especially if you're concerned about infringing on someone else's rights (and twice if you have any worries about getting sued or shut down), no matter how good the information you get sounds--including everything I just said--you'll want to check for yourself.  If someone comes calling to complain about infringement, there's a world of difference between "if you look here, here, and here, you'll see why I believe you have no claim" and "some dude on the Internet with an unpronounceable name said it'd be cool."

Oh, and keep in mind that for a relatively brief story, if you're going to pick it apart and provide analysis and commentary--I don't know what your plans are, after all--then you can always make a Fair Use argument, in that the (copyrighted) source material isn't what you're really "selling," but your analysis is useless without making it available.  But that's pretty dicey if you're just going to talk about it briefly and theen run the story.

I hope that helps, some.

Offline robsteibel

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2010, 12:57:34 PM »
Hi John,

Thanks, that helps a lot.

Unsurprisingly there are all sorts of opinions on this, but I think what you wrote is very clear and makes sense.

I suspect there may be zero Kirby stories I could post without someone complaining, but my hope is that maybe there are some stories from maybe the 50s I can post just to give my weblog some variety. It seems a shame to me that a Kirby Museum site cannot show a 5 page Kirby story without the risk of some kind of retaliation.

What books are PD and what constitutes fair use is a topic that I find fascinating as we watch intformation exchange evolve on-line, so I'll be curious to see how his all plays out in terms of sharing and discussing Kirby stories in he future.

Thanks again for the info, and if anyone knows of any specific stories by Kirby I could reasonably post on my Kirby weblog I'd appreciate any advice. Of course I can always remove the stories if anyone complains and I'll be sure to mention your website as well.

Thanks again,

R-

Offline skybandit

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »
   I would suggest getting a timeline-listing of everything Kirby did from the Grand Comics Database and cross-checking the results with this site to obtain Kirby stories.  I've seen at least half a dozen of the King's stories while looking for Ditko art on here, I'm sure you'll find plenty that are Public Domain.
“There are men so godlike, so exceptional, that they naturally, by right of their extraordinary gifts, transcend all moral judgment or constitutional control: 'There is no law which embraces men of that caliber: they are themselves law.’” - Aristotle

Offline JonTheScanner

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2010, 02:54:16 PM »
A few years back Pure Imagination published a series of 5 volumes called The Complete Jack Kirby.  Of course it was really far from complete, but I think the idea was to publish all the PD stories by Jack.  I can't vouch for the PDness myself. 

http://pureimagination.info/reprints.html#kirby

Offline bchat

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2010, 07:55:15 PM »
You could also check-out the "The Jack Kirby Checklist" published by TwoMorrows which gives a nice title-by-title listing of Kirby's work.  As pointed-out already, Kirby did some work for Fox ("Space Smith" springs to mind).  There's also work he did for Harvey, Novelty and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) "Solar Legion" published in Crash Comics.  If you don't hold to the idea that Marvel was perfect and renewed the Copyrights on everything they published when they were called Timely, there's some stuff from 1940 that he did there.

Offline John C

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 07:09:39 AM »
If you don't hold to the idea that Marvel was perfect and renewed the Copyrights on everything they published when they were called Timely, there's some stuff from 1940 that he did there.

While I can't say for sure that Marvel renewed everything, it's worth pointing out that the first books were up for renewal in 1967, by which time they seem to have gotten their collective act together (though it's worth noting that Carl Burgos owned a fair amount of the content at renewal time, so there may be other fragmentation).  To me, that at least implies that any lapses in renewal are deep in "needle in a haystack" territory.  They may be worth investigation at some point, but the "return-on-investment" isn't particularly good.  Plus, with Marvel, there's the added risk that, if you're wrong, you're facing off against Disney.

Offline narfstar

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 08:30:48 AM »
Lots of pd Kirby in the Prize category

Offline John C

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2010, 11:26:53 AM »
By the way, Rob, good stuff on the blog.  I'm not a big Kirby fan, myself, but it's a good read.

Unsurprisingly there are all sorts of opinions on this, but I think what you wrote is very clear and makes sense.

Again, though, be sure to double-check everything.  Up until recently, I had assumed that registration was a big part of copyright, until Ed Love (you may have seen his excellent "Cash Gorman" pages floating around) pointed out that the law never says anything to that effect.

The great thing about the Internet is that it puts so much information into the hands of laypeople like us, but at the same time, it also lets plenty of laypeople assume that things like continual publication, money paid,  and the size of companies has a bearing on whether a copyright was maintained.

I suspect there may be zero Kirby stories I could post without someone complaining, but my hope is that maybe there are some stories from maybe the 50s I can post just to give my weblog some variety. It seems a shame to me that a Kirby Museum site cannot show a 5 page Kirby story without the risk of some kind of retaliation.

Keep in mind that there are "complaints" and there are "complaints by someone with standing to sue."  The former can be ignored or used to educate readers--after all, something in the public domain is something that all of us actually own.  I mean, yeah, there are people who'll shout because they assume that everything Kirby touched is (or "should be," whatever that may mean) property of the Kirby estate, but those aren't people to worry about.

The latter complaints are a bit more serious, but if you have the information to back up your assertions, only a very bad lawyer pursue it further unless you're provably wrong--the loser in a copyright case pays the winner's legal fees, so it's not a place to mess around.  And if you happen to be wrong, it's much less likely that they'll make a big deal over things, if you show them what documents you used to come to that wrong conclusion and offer to remove the offennding material.

(As a case in point, a few years back, there was a guy who was selling OCRed scans of the original Doc Savage stories.  Conde Nast currently holds the copyright, and they tried very hard to work things out with the guy, including just asking for royalty payments and the inclusion of a copyright statement.  They didn't sue him until he refused those terms and insisted that he could CLAIM the copyright from them because they hadn't published anything with Doc Savage.  So often, even if someone does come to complain, as long as you have their attention, they can be quite willing to help out.)

What books are PD and what constitutes fair use is a topic that I find fascinating as we watch intformation exchange evolve on-line, so I'll be curious to see how his all plays out in terms of sharing and discussing Kirby stories in he future.

Oh, definitely, especially since Fair Use isn't really a codified thing and, as you point out, merely displaying a story for discussion purposes is, on the Internet, nearly equivalent to publishing that story.

Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail, rather than yet another round of companies lobbying for more restrictive copyright terms and people turning pirate because they've had it with laws that prevent them from using what they legally purchased.  (It's a sore point to me, because I grew up in amongst the copy-protection arms race on the 8-bit home computers and the Stalinist SPA ads.)

Offline JVJ (RIP)

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Re: Kirby Dynamics
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2010, 08:18:51 PM »

Does anybody have an idea of what Kirby comics are considered "public domain." I seem to be the only comics blogger on the internet not posting complete stories because I don't want to violate anyone's copyright -- do you guys know: what Kirby stories are unquestionably public domain so I can post them on the Kirby Dynamics weblog? I guess I should research this myself but I'm really busy and would appreciate any info.

Thanks a lot for your time,

R-

There's some great Kirby at Hillman that might fit the bill, Rob,
Craig Yoe just published a Lockjaw the Alligator strip from Punch and Judy in his book, Klassic Krazy Kool Kid's Komics. And Greg Sadowski did a Solar Legion (or something?) in his Supermen book. The stuff's out there and most likely PD in a lot of cases. The TwoMorrows list is a decent starting point, but I really like the month by month list in the back of Blue Rose Press' The Art of Jack Kirby.

Peace, Jim (|:{>
Peace, Jim (|:{>

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