- +

Author Topic: Bob Kane and his ghost artists  (Read 7263 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BobS

  • Banned
  • DCM Member
  • Posts: 111
  • Karma: 3
  • public enemy #1
Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« on: August 04, 2010, 08:33:49 PM »
Some of the early Target and the Targeteers "Bob Wood" art looks the same as some of the early Batman art.

Did Bob Wood ghost any Batman or were those Target and the Targeteers stories' art by Robinson & Roussos?
At least one of those Target and the Targeteers stories has names on stores/whatever in the art, like some early Batman art.

Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?

When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?

Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?

Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?

Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?

Best to all,
Bob
Public Enemy #1
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 03:22:35 PM by BobS »

Digital Comic Museum

Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« on: August 04, 2010, 08:33:49 PM »

Offline narfstar

  • VIP Uploaders
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1675
  • Karma: 74
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 09:15:48 PM »
I think there are few knowledgable comic fans who do not credit finger as co-creator. I thought is was Sprang how did most of the Batman ghosting.

Offline Yoc

  • S T A F F
  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15028
  • Karma: 57
  • 14 Years Strong!
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2010, 11:50:56 AM »
I think there is a site that lists all of Kane's ghosts but I can't recall where off hand.
Google maybe?

Offline moondood

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 8
  • Professional comics letterer & writer
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 02:38:09 AM »
Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?

//As far as I know--no.  Roussos came in very early and did a lot of the early lettering on the strip [I'm a comics letterer].  On a side note--when I worked in the Marvel bullpen in the 80's, Roussos was a cover colorist over there, I think he was...and I would pass him in the halls and think--Man, this guy lettered those early Batman stories---how cool is that?  I wish I woulda said something--or shook his hand or something....but I was in awe.

When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?

//An excellent question--and I think it depends on how you define "comic book art"...I think he had a hand in it from time to time--sometimes not at all [the Dick Sprang stories--and earlier...the Robinson stories that he did solo].  The earlier the story--the more he may have played a part.  By the 50's, I think, he was approving material--or something along those lines.

Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?

//I don't think so---the new look was typified by the yellow oval on the chest--that was pretty much Murphy Anderson if memory serves [at first, anyway]--and the new look was an attempt to get away from the Moldoff mold of the previous 12 yrs [prior to 1964, I think]....the alien stories of the 50's and early 60's are pretty typical Moldoff stories--art-wise, that is.

When I learned Moldoff did all that butt-ugly art, I was astonished--his Hawkman in the 40's was kinda klunky--but it had a kind of grace that was completely lacking in his Batman stories---only when I understood that he was ghosting for Kane did I get it--and I think Moldoff was ghosting for Kane without DC's knowledge, if my memory is right.


Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?

//I'd never heard that--but Kane was pretty much a business-man by that time, so maybe.  For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.

Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?

//Boy, the stories are all over the map, but I don't think Kane had much to do with either.  He wasn't smart enough to understand their story function to actually create them.  R and F are the likely suspects...and, honestly, I think Finger came up with Robin, and Robinson came up with Joker--but there may be some overlap.  Kane was not much of a story guy.

It's like the fate of DB Cooper [not his real name] -- we'll never know the truth.

Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?

//Absolutely--If even half of what I've read is true, he was the one who shaped the image [cowl, color, cape, ears], character background, the atmosphere [borrowed from the very moody Shadow magazine]...and along the way created a mythos that Kane just wasn't equipped for.  As much as I like the early Kane stories [much of it due to Finger]--I think Kane was a dick.  His "creation" was a success and he took all credit.  On the other hand, Finger was an introvert and insecure about his skills--so it was perfect for Kane to take advantage.  Finger was enormously talented.

But Bill Finger will not be officially credited because as I mentioned earlier, Kane got a great deal from DC Comics from the get-go in 1939--sole credit.  Something S&S didn't have with Superman...so their credit was dropped in the late 40's [I think in relation to their Superboy lawsuit].

Legally, DC cannot credit Bill Finger with co-creation due to the contracts.

They try to rectify it somewhat in collections and articles---but official credit will and does go to Bob Kane....even on the movies.

On another personal note--I met Dick Sprang---one a' my all time favorite Bat-artists in San Diego--man, in 1986, I think---I DID shake his hand and even got an autograph--even though I'm not much of an autograph guy--even when I later worked on Hollywood films--But this man--I HAD TO.  I even wrote a letter about it to the CBG that was published.

Obviously I'm a Bat-freak--even lettered the Legends of the Dark Knight series for a few years [good times]--and there are lots of good Bat-artists along the way--Kane included in a weird way.

Robinson, Sprang, Adams, Newton, Aparo---whew!  Good stuff.

Kurt Hathaway
aka moondood



Offline NobbyNobbs

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 04:46:09 AM »
Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff, as Bob Kane had a contract with DC that he would be offered every second Batman story (and the yellow oval was a Julius Schwartz thing, that he demanded be used on all the issues he edited.)

Offline Roygbiv666

  • Repeat Donor!
  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 795
  • Karma: 15
    • Standard Comics
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 08:25:24 AM »
Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff, as Bob Kane had a contract with DC that he would be offered every second Batman story (and the yellow oval was a Julius Schwartz thing, that he demanded be used on all the issues he edited.)

Wasn't the oval because DC couldn't trademark just a bat? Although, what do they do with the current bat design?

Offline NobbyNobbs

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 12:52:44 PM »
Acording to Julius Schwartz he had the oval added so everybody should be able to see exactly where his "reign" on Batman started, he demanded it from the first issue he edited.

Offline moondood

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34
  • Karma: 8
  • Professional comics letterer & writer
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2010, 02:28:31 AM »
//Acording to Julius Schwartz ca half of the "new look with the yellow oval on the chest" was done by Shelly Moldoff//

I must admit--I try to ignore a lot of those late 50's - early 60's stories.  They're just not very good--and they're not Batman in my eyes.

But now that I think of it--I can "see" Shelly's work on some of those Schwartz-reign stories--though I think he dropped the Kane style and worked in a more realistic style--though one that I still didn't like.  Shelly was obviously versatile.

Once Adams came in and returned the Dark Knight to the night, the character returned to its proper roots....a mysterious avenger.

And even back in the late 30's, I thought it was cool that he was called "The Batman"...as if it wasn't his name--it was what he was.

Even in some early Superman stories he's referred to as "The Superman"...and that's pretty cool, too--though it fits Bats more than Supes.


Moondood

Offline Bob Hughes

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2010, 06:01:57 AM »
[
Quote
i]Some of the early Target and the Targeteers "Bob Wood" art looks the same as some of the early Batman art.

Did Bob Wood ghost any Batman or were those Target and the Targeteers stories' art by Robinson & Roussos?
At least one of those Target and the Targeteers stories has names on stores/whatever in the art, like some early Batman art.

Probably by Robinson and Roussos

Quote
Was there a Kane ghost/assistant before Roussos?
Yes, Sheldon Moldoff ghosted the earliest stories after the second one.

Quote
When did Kane last do Batman comic book art?
Probably around 1947/48. The Batman origin story from around then is by him.  Shortly after that Lew Schwartz took over- but Kane tended to redraw all his Batman figures- so you could say he was still involved.  I don't think Kane redrew Moldoff's figures starting in 1954.

Quote
Wasn't 1960s New Look Batman art signed "Bob Kane" mostly (all?) by Shelly Moldoff?
The stuff signed by Bob Kane was either by Shelly Moldoff, Joe Giella or Chic Stone.

Quote
Did Kane REALLY use a ghost artist for Batman art prints he sold?
Probably.

Quote
Who do you guys figure came up with Robin and Joker, Kane or Robinson, or Finger?
Finger wrote the stories.  Without the stories the ideas are meaningless

Quote
Do you think Bill Finger should be credited as co-creator of Batman?
I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.

http://www.dccomicsartists.com/batman/batwho.htm

Offline Bob Hughes

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2010, 06:06:33 AM »
 
Quote
For some odd reason I've never seen explained anywhere, Kane had a better deal with DC than Siegel and Shuster--I have to think it's because he didn't just sign the paper like they did--he was smarter or more informed in some way.

According to Men of Tomorrow, around the time the Siegel and Shuster mess started heating up, Kane came into the DC offices and demanded a new contract, claiming he was underage when he signed the first one. (He wasn't)  DC basically caved because they couldn't afford the possibility of losing both characters. 


Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 03:48:45 PM »
I think Finger should be credited as the creator of Batman, period.

For what it's worth--and I realize it's not worth much, with only scant circumstantial evidence--I actually get the impression that "someone" used Finger to slip the Batman ideas to Kane with sufficient plausible deniability in case of a lawsuit.

Dial B gives a fairly good overview of Kane's part in things, including the reconstructed "Bird Man" and from what it "may" have been derived:

http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/389/

He then goes into the transformation from bird to bat, but it's a melange of weird, overly specific, and contradictory details.  Webster's Dictionary, for example?  The ears becoming a cowll?  The gloves?

Of Finger, he says, "Finger was insecure. He was not good at standing up for himself, he was a Signaturesperfectionist who had trouble meeting deadlines, and was sometimes plagued by writer’s block. He would later develop drinking problems."  Yet he remembers this clear as day, but didn't want a lick of credit for it.  Hm...

Meanwhile, not far away, Norman Daniels had created (earlier that year, but as-yet unpublished) a character with almost exactly the same look Finger describes (minus the ears), the Black Bat, for Thrilling Publications.  Heck of a coincidence, there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Bat

It was so much of a coincidence, that both Nedor and National threatened to sue over copyright infringement.  Neither case went to court, though.  Why?  Because Whitney Ellsworth--who had just recently left National for some time off in California and had worked for Ned Pines a couple year prior--wandered out to broker some kind of deal which seems to have boiled down to "nobody sues."

Every bit of that strikes me as really, really suspicious.  Maybe I'm too conspiracy-minded, but it all reads to me as if Ellsworth assumed the Black Bat (a good character idea) was forgotten or dropped at Nedor.  They bring in Kane to supply the strip, figuring if Pines were to sue, the artist who, frankly, traces his only decent action shots is more than expendable.  But Kane doesn't really pay attention, or wants to do his own thing, so he puts together "Bird-Man."  Finger then gets recruited to push Kane back on track, or to "improve" Bird-Man by adapting features of the presumed-discarded Black Bat.  He does it, but tries to keep out of the spotlight, since he'd rather not be associated with it.  And when Batman turns out to be too much of a success to lose, then Ellsworth takes the bullet in private and leaves town for a year or two.  (And later comes BACK to not just National, but Nedor, working on both Batman and the Black Bat in the '40s.)

Mind you, I don't want to malign anybody or imply that there's hard evidence to back my theory up, but this seems like a closer fit to what we know than all the hodge-podge elements that Kane and Finger cited over the years, in the same way that Superman's resemblance to Philip Wylie's "Gladiator" novel could never be discounted even as Siegel claimed he had never heard of it.

Offline darkmark (RIP)

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Karma: 60
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 12:57:15 AM »
Yeah...like DC claims Green Lantern of the Sixties derived absolutely nothing from "Doc" Smith's Lensman series.  ;)

Offline Bob Hughes

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 70
  • Karma: 0
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 04:43:28 AM »
John C.

If you actually tried to line your story up with actual dates, it wouldn't work.  Ellsworth's west coast "vacation" happened much earlier than your scenario says it did.  And nobody at DC (which at the time meant Vin Sullivan) had ever heard of Bill Finger.  (Who, by the way, admitted he swiped the entire first Batman story from a Shadow novel).

Ned Pines and Harry Donenfeld were poker buddies. I'm sure any deal that was made was made at their level.

Offline John C

  • Administrators
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1316
  • Karma: 3
    • John's Blog
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2010, 05:42:12 AM »
If you actually tried to line your story up with actual dates, it wouldn't work.

Entirely fair, Bob.  As I say, what "proof" I have is flimsy and circumstantial, and relies most on the overly-specific recollections that sound so coached.  Whatever the true story, I really have to doubt that Finger took Kane's Flash Gordon knockoff and, through the wonders of a dictiionary illustration, reproduced a character that's almost identical (physically) to a competitor's upcoming product.

And I don't say that because they're both "bats," either.  Victorian, Edwardian, and Pulp literature is littered with people posing as the dang critters, including a Spider (as I recall--I've got the '70s reprint somewhere) villain dressed as a giant vampire bat.  I could believe similarity to THOSE came from consulting a dictionary.

Yeah...like DC claims Green Lantern of the Sixties derived absolutely nothing from "Doc" Smith's Lensman series.  ;)

I can actually half-believe that, I think.  When I read Smith's books (I forget how far I got into the series, honestly, so I might be missing the more damning material), I saw it as being "about" eugenics and genocide, in terms of organization.  Some details are similar (order-junkies recruiting interstellar cops), and those might derive directly (or indirectly) from Smith, but it seems a stretch to me to say that the Corps were "based on" the Lensmen, for example.

But maybe I'm the one more focusing on details than the bigger picture, too.

Offline darkmark (RIP)

  • VIP
  • DCM Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
  • Karma: 60
Re: Bob Kane and his ghost artists
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2010, 08:47:06 AM »
It's like this.  Lens=power ring.  Lensmen=Green Lantern Corps.  Arisians=Guardians of the Universe.  Eddorians=Qwardians.  One of the best novels for comparison, and my fave, is CHILDREN OF THE LENS.  I doubt DC will ever acknowledge this, any more than we'll hear Disney admit how much of THE LION KING was swiped from SIMBA, THE WHITE LION.  My 2 cents plain.