General Category > Comic Related Discussion
Holyoke is a Myth...
mmiichael:
--- Quote from: Bob Hughes on April 10, 2010, 06:24:29 AM ---Mike Feldman sees a connection between Speed Comics and Speed Pulps- the successor to the Spicy line.
I can't find this connection, other than Barreaux (did I spell it right that time?). I don't even think the time periods match.
--- End quote ---
Hi Bob, jumping in here. Been out of this stuff for a while. The above is not true and I never asserted it.
I'm amazed reading these threads how out of the loop people are about the publishing business. Comic book history is not Biblical scholarship. Information provided by the marginal publishers was a mailing requirement - not Holy Writ.
Distributors like PDC and Kable fronted lines often in tandem with printers and paper brokers. People like Sherman Bowles did not want their names to appear. But he was Holyoke. Most of the jobs came from his dedicated comic supplement press...
Seem to have run out of space here.
Bob Hughes:
Mike, I may have misquoted you (or misquoted someone who misquoted you). Bowles is Holyoke. That much we've got straight. No question. He liked to pretend he wasn't. That much we've got straight.
The guys we're still wondering about are Temerson (where did he go while Bowles was publishing Cat-Man?), and Greenwald (was he fronting for PDC? or somebody else?). We're all quite aware that printers and distributors front these guys money and then seize their assets when they can't pay it back.
The interesting wrinkle in the Holyoke case, is that both Fox and Temerson somehow got their lines back from Holyoke (Bowles). The Fox stuff is documented in court filings. Temerson, not so much.
There's a lot of stuff on the internet that attempts to link Carnahan via Barreaux to Trojan. It's even in Jerry's Who's Who. I don't find any evidence to support that. Do you?
JVJ (RIP):
--- Quote from: mmiichael on April 16, 2010, 11:31:46 PM ---Hi Bob, jumping in here. Been out of this stuff for a while. The above is not true and I never asserted it.
I'm amazed reading these threads how out of the loop people are about the publishing business. Comic book history is not Biblical scholarship. Information provided by the marginal publishers was a mailing requirement - not Holy Writ.
Distributors like PDC and Kable fronted lines often in tandem with printers and paper brokers. People like Sherman Bowles did not want their names to appear. But he was Holyoke. Most of the jobs came from his dedicated comic supplement press...
--- End quote ---
Hi, Mike,
The last question I asked was whether or not Bowles had anything to do with World Color Press at 420 DeSoto in St. Louis? While we appreciate the impact of distributors and printers on the various smaller companies, it only kicks the research difficulty up a notch as we attempt to push the curtain back. I don't believe we're "out of the loop." It's quite obvious that Bowles didn't want to be seen fronting the comics. Okay, that explains Holyoke and Mary Gallegher. Now, if you have the information, can you tell us who Ray R. Hermann or Marjorie May were fronting for? Who owned the presses at Meriden and at 420 DeSoto (World Color, of course, but which comics did they have a stake in)?
It's one thing to maintain that there are connections behind connections, but that doesn't make them impenetrable - just more difficult to ascertain. Who were the front men for these presses? How were the distributors aligned with the various printing companies? How DID Temerson get his comics back from Bowles/Holyoke/Gallegher? Things happened for a reason. This is history - which is not Biblical Allegory, but discernible (we hope) fact.
Come on in and join the fun. The water's murky, but it's fine.
(|:{>
mmiichael:
Guys,
The point I try to emphasize is that the indicia and other publisher supplied information cannot always be used as Gospel. My information sources are broader and deeper and I think I have a clearer picture of the scenarios.
I've had extensive conversations with real old-timers like Jack Adams who was IND's general manager, the hands on guy, 1939-53. Other stories even first hand accounts of Bowles with people who he backed.
Comics were a good investment by 1940, with the success rate being 60-70%. Various deals were cut with distributors, printers, paper suppliers and outside dabblers, often lawyers. Layers of obfuscation were created to obscure the money sources.
People like Leo Greewald and Temerson where hired gun nominal publishers given the task of making sure product came down the pike in time and on budget. They were the ones who put their name on the periodicals, for legal and postal requirements, but at best were front men with minority participation.
A problem is these mags changed hands and ownership positions all the time, often issue to issue. PDC typically would front the credit line for paper and printing (80% of the costs) and take a 25% position in a start-up company. When sales were below expectations and bills were unpaid, they increased their shareholding to the point they were in control. Then a decision was made whether to keep the original crew and publisher or tune the operation over to a new 'packager.'
There was a crisis on the newsstand s in mid-1940 when Britain was fighting for its existence and everyone was glued to their radio sets. Too many new comics on the stand, many with unappealing contents, and there was something of an implosion.
Publishers and distributors, often the same people, huddled and decided they had to get more reliable professional content management...
Ex-porn guys like Greenwald and Carnahan were out and a new crop of comics professionals were sought. Greenwald initially oversaw an operation from which content for both Centaur and Ace were generated. He was moved elsewhere if I recall, maybe to girly mags.
More to it than that, of course. There was a war on with the independents against the America News Company stranglehold on distribution, and comics lead the way in breaking their monopoly in many regions.
More comics meant less space for other products, and printing prices came down as new arrangements were made for dedicated 4-color presses and redistribution channels.
Maybe more later.
Mike
mmiichael:
--- Quote from: Bob Hughes on April 17, 2010, 06:27:46 AM ---There's a lot of stuff on the internet that attempts to link Carnahan via Barreaux to Trojan. It's even in Jerry's Who's Who. I don't find any evidence to support that. Do you?
--- End quote ---
Bob,
I think I supplied Jerry with the info on Carnahan. Worth Carnahan was employed by the soft porn arm of what evolved to DC, c1927-39, initially as a staff artist eventually becoming inhouse art director and an editor.
He interfaced with Barreaux who was a feature packager and editor from the late 20s right into the early 50s when he reprinted his own comic features done for the SPICY/SPEED line for Trojan Comics.
These were carried by new distributor, Leader News, a Sampliner alternative company set up in 1939 to carry to more contentious stuff that they didn’t want connected to the burgeoning comics lines. Frank Armer was CEO. It was a consolation prize for him as he was taken out of the comics money loop.
The picture gets complicated because there were increasing mob interests in periodical distribution throughout the 40s that came to a head in 1947. Bowles pulled out and the fringe comic publishing end served a different purpose. A means of leverage with wholesalers.
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