Holyoke is a Myth...

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

By the way, does anyone have a copy of Speed #s 12 or 13? And does either have an Ownership Statement?

Speed Comics # 11 was published by Brookwood in "August" 1940 (possibly released in June or July, no earlier than May), issue # 12 was published by Speed Publishing Co in "March" 1941 (actual release may have been January or February, no earlier than December 1940), with # 13 following in "May".  It looks like the Statement of Ownership form was usually filed in October, but since nobody was publishing Speed Comics at that point, the Statement may not have been filed for 1940.

The Champ[ion] Comics statement for October 1940 appeared in issue #12, cover-date Februrary 1941.  Speed #12 was cover-date March 1941 so may well have a statement, assuming Speed was on the same cycle.  Although it started two months earlier.  The first Champion issue was cover-dated December 1939 so was probably released in October, making October 1940 its one-year mark.  But there was that huge gap in Speed Comics, so if there's a first-year statement at all it would most likely be in #12.  There is a scan on this site but it does not include any text pages :-(  I realize in some cases the scans are from some other scanning effort long ago and we're lucky to have them at all, but it's so frustrating when people leave out those pages.  This scan is 65 pages though, so the inside front and inside and outside back covers would bring it to 68, which seems very odd as you need the two pages of text for 2nd-class mail.  I just flipped through the whole thing and I don't *think* I missed text pages...

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

I didn't ask about "feld" or "field" - the site lists "Rosefeld" (no N). It that a typo or does the indicia spell in without the "N"?

Sorry, missed that and had been reading the feld/field discussion recently so it was on my mind :-)

Quinlan certainly continues to produce Catman, but what evidence is there for Temerson's continued involvement? I've seen the Ulmer letter, and my take on it is not that Ulmer is saying that Temerson is at Holyoke. Unless you know of another letter, I'm still very leery of placing Temerson the man at Holyoke the publisher.

Reading over this one (it was posted while I was writing my previous reply) I agree that it doesn't make a case for Temerson involved in the titles at Holyoke.  He may have been, or he may have been shut out until he managed to get them back for Et-Es-Go.  The only clear thing is that editorially/creatively there is continuity.

thanks,
-henry

Absolutely an editorial connection, Henry.
I've never doubted that. I try to be very careful with words when discussing this topic as it's been bandied about for decades with much misunderstanding and misinformation being given and taken as fact. So please understand that I'm just trying to be a stickler for the details when I question these things.

Which I very much appreciate.  I'm trying to also be precise, but sometimes fail :-P

And ps, does Rosefeld have the N or not?

At this point I'm not sure.  The last email I checked on gcd-main did not, so I'm wondering if I mentally fabricated it by accident.  I don't have time this morning to go through the archives and do a properly close reading, I'm afraid.

pps.

"Lex Publications," 381 Fourth Avenue, which superseded "Ultem" and "Resolute Publications", is in its turn out.

What does "is in its turn out." mean?

Bob's going to have to explain that.  I think that means that Lex Publications, like the previous two, ceases to be used and is replaced by yet another company or companies (Brookwood/Tem/Nita).
thanks,
-henry

[JVJ (RIP)]

Yes, Henry,
That was Hames' thinking, too. If there is an OS for the early Speeds, it would be in issue 12. I own Champ #12 and we extrapolated the possible existence of the corresponding OS in Speed. I'm hoping that Bud Plant might have a copy and be able to review the contents for me looking of an OS. I'll keep you posted.

(|:{>

[Bob Hughes]

It's Rosefeld on the first issue and Rosefield on the second issue, according to Frank Motler.
"Bob,
Per FMI, it's Rosefeld on PAS #1.
http://www.philsp.com/homeville/fmi/t1184.htm


This changes to Rosefield, #2 on.
regards, frank m."
FMI I presume means Fiction Mags Index.

No "n" either time.

Temerson's status at Holyoke is still up in the air pending confirmation from somewhere.
"is in it's turn, out" is a quote from the Writer's Digest article.  Have to ask them exactly what it means, but I concur with Henry's guess.

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

Yes, Henry,
That was Hames' thinking, too. If there is an OS for the early Speeds, it would be in issue 12. I own Champ #12 and we extrapolated the possible existence of the corresponding OS in Speed. I'm hoping that Bud Plant might have a copy and be able to review the contents for me looking of an OS. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks, Jim!  BTW when I was quoting from Champ #12 I didn't mean to lecture you on a comic you had already examined, but I figured not everyone knew the full context of the OS there- it's particularly interesting how the indicia and OS provide two snapshots of Greenwald acquiring the title from Worth.  The fact that there was (however briefly) a period where Greenwald controlled the title under the original Worth company name seems interesting.  While the OS comes from the same cover month as #11 (and therefore a few months after its production), I've wondered whether #11 changed to Champ Comics (from Champion Comics) and was delayed by a month because Greenwald was already taking it over.  Have you seen #11 and does it have anything interesting?  For instance, was Worth B. Carnahan still credited as editor in the indicia (and if not, when does that stop?  I know he is in #4 but I haven't looked at #5-11).

thanks again,
-henry

[KnightRandom]

My head hurts.

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

My head hurts.

Let me know when it's better.  I'll start a thread on the 1944-1945 "Chesler" books and who really published them and how 

[JVJ (RIP)]

My head hurts.

Let me know when it's better.  I'll start a thread on the 1944-1945 "Chesler" books and who really published them and how 

Mine, too! Knight.

(|:{> !!!

[narfstar]

So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.

[JVJ (RIP)]

So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.

Perhaps this will explain it more clearly, Narf...
http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[narfstar]

Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?

[JVJ (RIP)]

Thanks Jim nice and concise. I do not think anyone wants to split Speed out of Harvey. What I would like to do when I have the time is tag the end of each file name. Should all but Holyoke be tagged as Tem-xxxx?

But really, narf,
It's not about what "people" want, it's about what's historically accurate. Again, I cite the example of Blue Beetle. Let's do what's right and "people" will figure it out. Honest.

I've given Yoc my suggestions for the various "buckets" into which I believe the books should be filed. I suggested that he share those ideas with the forum, but he seems to be busy with non-DCM issues in his life and hasn't gotten to it yet. There's no rush. These things have been mixed up for 50 years. A couple of more days isn't going to hurt anything....

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[JVJ (RIP)]

Thanks, Jim!  BTW when I was quoting from Champ #12 I didn't mean to lecture you on a comic you had already examined, but I figured not everyone knew the full context of the OS there- it's particularly interesting how the indicia and OS provide two snapshots of Greenwald acquiring the title from Worth.  The fact that there was (however briefly) a period where Greenwald controlled the title under the original Worth company name seems interesting.  While the OS comes from the same cover month as #11 (and therefore a few months after its production), I've wondered whether #11 changed to Champ Comics (from Champion Comics) and was delayed by a month because Greenwald was already taking it over.  Have you seen #11 and does it have anything interesting?  For instance, was Worth B. Carnahan still credited as editor in the indicia (and if not, when does that stop?  I know he is in #4 but I haven't looked at #5-11).

thanks again,
-henry

I didn't take it as a "lecture", Henry,
by all means share information in as much detail as possible.

My list says that I DO have Champ #11, but it's either upstairs or in the mail to Hames Ware. Or perhaps my list is in error. As I was mentioning to Hames earlier today, not having physical access to my comics makes me feel very retarded. Because I never NEEDED to remember all of the details (I simply went upstairs and looked at my notes or at the actual comics), I never DID remember them. Now that I'm physically restricted from jumping up and going upstairs, I feel as if I've had some sort of frontal lobotomy where I can't access half of what I "know". So, alas, I DON'T know if WBC is still listed as the editor. Sorry.

Hames and I suspect that the Ownership Statement in Champ #12 was a done deal when the transfer of ownership happened - in fact the issue may have been ready for the printer. Perhaps, as you say, it was delayed due to the "sale" (which would explain the four month gap between 11 and 12. FYI, here the information on the Worth Champions that I own (or have seen first hand).

CHAMPION COMICS
   3   1/40   Worth Pub. Co.   ed. 1 E 42nd St. NYC   2nd Class: pending Cleveland, OH
         pub @ 1213 West 3rd St, Cleveland OH
         ZERO content connection to Temerson or Speed - all typical Barreaux material and characters.
   4   2/40   Worth Pub. Co.   1 E 42nd St. NYC   2nd Class: NYC
   5   3/40
   6   4/40   Worth Pub. Co.   1 E 42nd St. NYC   2nd Class: NYC
   7   5/40   Worth Pub. Co.   ed. 1 E 42nd St. NYC    2nd Class: Buffalo, NY
         pub @ 8 Lord St., Buffalo NY
   9   7/40   Worth Pub. Co.   ed. 122 E 42nd St. NYC   2nd Class: Buffalo, NY
         pub @ 8 Lord St., Buffalo NY
   11   10/40   Worth Pub. Co.   122 E 42nd St. NYC   2nd Class: NYC
         Adolphe Barreaux is editor
   12   2/41   Champ Pub. Co.   225 W 57th St. NYC   re-entered as 2nd Class (9/25/40): NYC
         listed because of 10/14/40 OS: Owners are Worth Pub. Co. and Leo Greenwald

Peace, Jim (|:{>

[OtherEric]

Just as a side note:  I'm in mid-edit on several of JVJ's early Speed and Champion issues and should be getting them up for viewing soon.  (If I hadn't slept most of today with a nasty cold I would have had at least some already.)

And I've said things like this before but it bears repeating:  I don't have much to add to the discussion here but just because I'm not saying anything doesn't mean I'm not finding it fascinating!  Thanks to all who DO have useful stuff to say.

[Henry Andrews (fox_centaur)]

So I'm not the only one. I think I know more and understand less than when all this started.

Perhaps this will explain it more clearly, Narf...
http://www.bpib.com/test/GAC/Temerson-by-date-simplified.pdf

Great stuff, Jim!  Thanks so much for posting.  I've gone over it and have some comments, questions and confirmations :-)

Of particular interest to me is whether there really was a Green Hornet Pub. Co.  You mentioned earlier that your Green Hornet data was 2nd-hand.  I've seen conflicting reports and been unable to nail down exactly what went on with those.  The one indicia scan I've seen is from #2 and is only partial.  It says that the issue is *copyright* Helnit Pub. Co., but does not show the name of the actual publisher.  I might have to track down a copy of this to satisfy my curiosity, but if anyone knows for sure please speak up and save me some money ;-)

Frank Motler and I went through as much of Cat-Man as we could and confirmed a lot of the numbers in the form shown at http://www.comics.com/series/255/ which seems to agree with your list here.  The numbers commonly assumed many places were often wrong.  I can't find all of my notes right now to figure out which we were missing, but I can definitely confirm that cover #10 is indicia #v2#15, ed.&adv. 220 W. 42nd st., published 5/1942, pub@Holyoke, 2nd Class: Holyoke.  I don't think we were able to confirm #v2#13 ( or #v2#14 (9).

For Cat-Man cover #1 the scan here is blurry, but it's pretty clearly indicia #v1#6.

Captain Fearless #2, 9/1942, is pub@Meriden, Conn. (and 2nd class pending) by Helnit Publishing Co., Inc.  Editorial 381 Fourth Avenue, New York City.