Holyoke is a Myth...

[JVJ (RIP)]

(Edit: I'm just following scra1941's lead by giving the thread a controversial name. The "myth" of Holyoke is that it was a publishing company from 1940 to 1950. See below for (lots) more details.)

I realize that this IS beating a dead horse, guys, but can I possibly make the request ONE more time to abandon the "Holyoke" designation for this group of comics. I know this flies in the face of Overstreet and Bails and fandom as a whole, but it is simply WRONG.

Holyoke was a printing company that published Capt. Aero and Catman for ONE YEAR (2/42-1/43). They published Blue Beetle for maybe 20 months (6/42-2/44. They created Sparkling Stars (6/44) AFTER they lost Blue Beetle back to Fox and published 33 issues (until 3/48)and they released a whole slew of single issue reprints that have been collectively designated Holyoke One-Shots. No dates on these, but assumed to have been 1944, also post-Blue Beetle. That's it. Period, the end - a short stint of publishing other company's books and then a couple of titles on their own.

Et-Es-Go, Helnit, Continental, Bilbara, Tem, and Nita should all be gathered into a "Temerson Publishing" group. Aviation Press and Narrative have only a tenuous connection with Temerson, through L.B. Cole perhaps, but no connection with Holyoke whatsoever.

The Holyoke issues of Capt. Aero and Catman should be lumped into the Temerson category, or, otherwise, just put issues PUBLISHED by Holyoke into the Holyoke section. That's what is done with the Blue Beetle issues. It makes infinitely more historical sense.

I hereby relinquish the soap box and cease flailing at the departed horse-like creature.

my (futile, I'm sure) 2¢

(|:{>

[narfstar]

Thanks Jim your information has been added to that section on the GAC homepage

[bchat]

I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues).  Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.

On a related subject, I was also wondering if the Rural Home titles were ever going to be gathered into their own category, away from Croydon?  It doesn't make sense to me to keep two completely unrelated companies grouped together.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I'm curious as to how Bilbara is linked to "Holyoke, etc", since Bilbara had the same editorial address as Worth Publishing (publisher of early Champion Comics issues).  Both Bilbara & Worth operated out of 122 East 42nd Street, New York, NY in 1940, whereas at that same point in time, Nita, Helnit, Tem & Brookwood had their editorial office at 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC NY.

On a related subject, I was also wondering if the Rural Home titles were ever going to be gathered into their own category, away from Croydon?  It doesn't make sense to me to keep two completely unrelated companies grouped together.

I agree with you, bchat. I also do not see the connection between Bilbara, Worth and Temerson - though a coincidental connection may exist since Cyclone (Bilbara) and Whirlwind (Nita) debuted the SAME month and featured some of the same artists and similar characters. Not much to build a case on, but still "interesting".

Worth's Champion Comics shares the distinction of being acquired by the Harveys with Speed (Brookwood) and Green Hornet (Helnit), so again there's this tangential parallelism that one finds interesting, but certainly NOT conclusive.

Others consider it too much of coincidence, but I remain skeptical.

There is no connection between them and Holyoke. Holyoke as a publishing company doesn't exist until Feb. 1942 when it takes over the publication of Capt. Aero and Catman. In 1940 and 1941, the years of Nita, Tem and Brookwood (i.e. the years at 381 4th Ave), Holyoke is at most a printing company.

As for 220 W. 42nd St., I think that address first appears in Great Comics #1 (11/41) and the following month in Choice Comics #1. Then Catman #6, still listed as Helnit Pub. Co. moves to that address in 1/42. And, as you know, that is the editorial address for Holyoke (until 1/43), Et-Es-Go and Continental until the end (Suspense Comics #12, 9/46). I can't navigate the stairs to check on the editorial addresses used by Sparkling Stars, but that comic doesn't come into existence until mid-1944 and probably doesn't (correct me if I err) come out of 220 W. 42nd.

And BOY, do I EVER agree with you regarding Croydon being used as an umbrella name for Rural Home, et al.

(|:{>

[bchat]

Worth's Champion Comics shares the distinction of being acquired by the Harveys with Speed (Brookwood) and Green Hornet (Helnit), so again there's this tangential parallelism that one finds interesting, but certainly NOT conclusive.

Others consider it too much of coincidence, but I remain skeptical.

I simply assume (with no facts to base this on, just "thinking out-loud") that Harvey wanted to get out of the gate quickly, and so acquired existing titles from small companies (Speed, Champion) as an easy way to enter comics, and then expanded from there.

There is no connection between them and Holyoke. Holyoke as a publishing company doesn't exist until Feb. 1942 when it takes over the publication of Capt. Aero and Catman. In 1940 and 1941, the years of Nita, Tem and Brookwood (i.e. the years at 381 4th Ave), Holyoke is at most a printing company.

As for 220 W. 42nd St., I think that address first appears in Great Comics #1 (11/41) and the following month in Choice Comics #1. Then Catman #6, still listed as Helnit Pub. Co. moves to that address in 1/42. And, as you know, that is the editorial address for Holyoke (until 1/43), Et-Es-Go and Continental until the end (Suspense Comics #12, 9/46). I can't navigate the stairs to check on the editorial addresses used by Sparkling Stars, but that comic doesn't come into existence until mid-1944 and probably doesn't (correct me if I err) come out of 220 W. 42nd.

Sparkling Stars 10 has Holyoke Publishing Co Inc's address as 1475 Broadway Times Bldg., New York, NY, so you can avoid the stairs for now.

And BOY, do I EVER agree with you regarding Croydon being used as an umbrella name for Rural Home, et al.

Well, I remember the discussion about this on the other board and thought it was worth revisiting here.  Reading everone else's opinions on the matter convinced me that Croydon & Rural Home should be treated as the seperate companies that they are.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I agree with your Harvey suggestion, bchat. As I've argued with those who try to extend some pre-Harvey connection to those titles, you can't make it retroactive just because the same group took over the titles.

It does seem much more likely that there is a connection between Brookwood and Helnit, and here's a very interesting set of facts:

1. Brookwood, Tem and Nita lasted for ONE YEAR (Speed #1) 10/39 to (Crash #4) 9/40.

2. Helnit (& Great and Choice, if you care to include them - and I do) lasted for ONE YEAR (Green Hornet #1) 12/40 to (Catman #6) 1/42.

3. Holyoke took over the two Helnit titles for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 2/42 to (Capt Aero #10) 1/43.

4. There's a six month gap between the end of Holyoke's run and the beginning of Et-Es-Go (Capt. Aero #10) 1/43 to (Catman #7) 7/43.

5. Et-Es-Go lasted for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 7/43 to (Capt. Aero #15 and Suspense #4) 6/44 - before turning into Continental.

6. Continental lasted TWO YEARS (Catman #25) 7/44 to (Suspense #12) 6/46.

I have no idea what all that means, but I find it curious, don't you?

(|:{>

ps. Thanks for the Sparkling Stars info.

[phabox (RIP)]

Slightly off topic I know but I have often wondered what the connection between St.John and Dynamic/Harry A Chesler was as some early ST.John books reprinted material from that publisher/shop.

-Nigel

[bchat]

I agree with your Harvey suggestion, bchat. As I've argued with those who try to extend some pre-Harvey connection to those titles, you can't make it retroactive just because the same group took over the titles.

Personally, and you may not agree with me here, I'ld like to see the first 11 issues of "Speed Comics" (and maybe the first six of "Green Hornet") moved from Harvey and grouped together with Crash Comics & Whirlwind Comics.

It does seem much more likely that there is a connection between Brookwood and Helnit, and here's a very interesting set of facts:

1. Brookwood, Tem and Nita lasted for ONE YEAR (Speed #1) 10/39 to (Crash #4) 9/40.

2. Helnit (& Great and Choice, if you care to include them - and I do) lasted for ONE YEAR (Green Hornet #1) 12/40 to (Catman #6) 1/42.

Speaking of Great & Choice Comics, I'ld like to see these moved from "Unsorted" to the Helnit/Tem group.

3. Holyoke took over the two Helnit titles for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 2/42 to (Capt Aero #10) 1/43.

4. There's a six month gap between the end of Holyoke's run and the beginning of Et-Es-Go (Capt. Aero #10) 1/43 to (Catman #7) 7/43.

5. Et-Es-Go lasted for ONE YEAR (Catman #7) 7/43 to (Capt. Aero #15 and Suspense #4) 6/44 - before turning into Continental.

6. Continental lasted TWO YEARS (Catman #25) 7/44 to (Suspense #12) 6/46.

I have no idea what all that means, but I find it curious, don't you?

I find it confusing.  I'll admit that I haven't been looking at this as closely as you have for as long as you have, but looking at the following info pretty much settles the debate for me:

Cover-date "November 1943":
Cat-Man Comics 21 - Et-Es-Go Magazines Inc - editorial office: 220 West 42nd Street, New York, NY - office of publication: 420 De Soto Avenue, St Louis MO
Blue Beetle 27 - Holyoke Publishing Co Inc - editorial office: 52 Vanderbilt Avenue, NYC, NY - office of publication: 1 Appleton Street, Holyoke, Mass

It seems pretty clear that I'm looking at two different publishers operating out of two different locations.  You've definitely made a strong case for a group publishing name change, and your suggestion of "Tem Publishing" is probably as good as any.  I think that as long as the "True Holyoke" books stay grouped with the others, there's always going to be people debating what to call everything.

ps. Thanks for the Sparkling Stars info.

You're welcome.

[JVJ (RIP)]

I was in no way lobbying for a "group publishing name change". My initial post on this thread states my position pretty well. Holyoke was a printer who took over some comics from the "Temerson Group" and then another title from Victor Fox. After one year, whatever debt was owed by Temerson is satisfied and, after a six month gap, Temerson revives his books, adds a couple more and goes on for two years.

Fox takes longer to get out from under Holyoke, but when he does, Holyoke decides that maybe there is something to these comic books after all and starts their own title, Sparkling Stars and uses some paper to reprint the "one-shots".

No, I see Holyoke as a printer from 1940-41 turned publisher from 1942 to 1948. And your Blue Beetle 27 indicia data clearly shows that the editorial content of Blue Beetle was created in a separate office, 52 Vanderbilt, which was the same address used for the final four or five Holyoke Catman and last three Holyoke Capt. Aero comics.

Again, I don't have the Sparkling Stars and Blue Beetle info to hand and it's frustrating.

Interesting, the first thing Temerson did when he got his titles back was to move the printing to St. Louis, MO. from Holyoke, MA.

(|:{>

ps. I agree. Make a group called Tem/Nita and another called Et-Es-Go/Continental and put the books where they belong.

[bchat]

I was in no way lobbying for a "group publishing name change".

I agree that referring to all the books as "Holyoke" isn't accurate, as you've proved.  Leaving the folder with the name "Holyoke" doesn't seem like the best thing to do if this site wants to eliminate this sort of confusion for future historians looking into the history of these companies.

... Holyoke decides that maybe there is something to these comic books after all and starts their own title, Sparkling Stars and uses some paper to reprint the "one-shots".

The "Holyoke One-shots" that this site has do not contain any indicia, so my question is:  How could someone like me confirm that Holyoke is the actual publisher?  If none of the one-shots had an indicia, is this just a case of Overstreet assigning a publisher to books based on the contents?

And on a side note, I'm not looking to create a bunch of work for anyone by suggesting books get shuffled around (like Choice & Great Comics or the early Speed Comics), but it doesn't make sense to me to have these related books scattered througout the site.  As it stands right now, it makes it inconvenient for someone investigating a situation like this to have to jump from one publisher folder to another, trying to figure-out which issue numbers were produced by different companies.

[OtherEric]

One other thing about Sparkling Stars that I always find interesting:  I'm pretty sure it's the last book to stay at 68 pages for a dime.  Heck, even starting at that size was unusual in 1944, and by 1948 at least some publishers were down to 36 pages.  Just another oddity to note.

[JVJ (RIP)]

Wish I had an answer for your "Holyoke One Shot" question, bchat. Mine are (dum du dum dum...) upstairs...

As for putting the books where they (historically) belong, we do it for Blue Beetle, don't we? You find the Holyoke issues under Holyoke and the Fox issues under Fox and the Charlton issues under Charlton. There may, indeed, be some confusion due to this, but (I was going to say that you'd find them all if you searched on "Blue Beetle", but every time I tried I got the following:
----------------------
    A database error has occurred on Digital Comic Museum.
    You can try to refresh the page by clicking here, if this does not fix the error, you can contact the administrator by clicking here. Please let them know the contents of all three boxes below.
    Alternatively, if you are the administrator and you believe this to be a software bug, please post the information in the support section of our forum here. Please quote the contents of all three boxes below.

    Error Returned
    mySQL query error: SELECT * FROM dl_categories WHERE cid= mySQL error: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '' at line 1 Date: Tuesday 06th 2010f April 2010 02:42:11 PM
----------------------
so I have no idea if it will work. Oddly enough, I get a similar error when searching for Blue Beetle on GACUK. Bizarre!!!)

Getting back to the question of where to file the books, I believe that in the end it's better to be accurate and let folks adapt and learn the real history than it is to cater to the "myths" of comic legends. YMMV.

my 2¢

(|:{>

[Zog]

----------------------
    A database error has occurred on Digital Comic Museum.
    You can try to refresh the page by clicking here, if this does not fix the error, you can contact the administrator by clicking here. Please let them know the contents of all three boxes below.
    Alternatively, if you are the administrator and you believe this to be a software bug, please post the information in the support section of our forum here. Please quote the contents of all three boxes below.

    Error Returned
    mySQL query error: SELECT * FROM dl_categories WHERE cid= mySQL error: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '' at line 1 Date: Tuesday 06th 2010f April 2010 02:42:11 PM

will look into the error...

[Captain DJ]

Ok error is caused by 5 comics in the system that are not linked to any category. Finding these 5 comics out of 8600 odd entries might take me little time.

BTW Blue search term works fine, its beetle that is the problem   

[JVJ (RIP)]

Ok error is caused by 5 comics in the system that are not linked to any category. Finding these 5 comics out of 8600 odd entries might take me little time.

BTW Blue search term works fine, its beetle that is the problem   

Is that like looking for a beetle in a haystack, Captain?

(|:{>