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Author Topic: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link  (Read 3773 times)

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Offline Yoc

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More fantastic research from Ken Quatro has unearthed -
DC VS VICTOR FOX: The Testimony of Will Eisner!

Quote
This is the transcript to the lawsuit of Detective Comics vs Bruns Publications--otherwise known as DC vs Victor Fox. This case, which if you don't know, involved Fox's copyright infringement of Superman by the Will Eisner created character, Wonder Man.

Some of the witnesses in this case were: Max Gaines, Sheldon Mayer, Jerry Siegel, Donenfeld, Liebowitz and of course, Jerry Iger and Victor Fox. Fascinating--and very revealing--reading.

-Ken Q

I had no idea so many others were also involved and certainly look forward to reading this!

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As Ken's blog has gone on hiatus his links might not be working.
Alter-Ego is sharing a bonus PDF of the Fox vs DC court transcript at the following link as shared by Ken on his Facebook page -
http://www.twomorrows.com/media/AE101EisnerTranscript.pdf

--------


Thanks Ken!

Digital Comic Museum


Offline John C

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2010, 07:24:07 AM »
Interesting on a few levels, and I'll be following the release to see how where it goes.

I am, however, curious as to where the material came from, Ken's anonymous source aside.  There are a few points that...I don't know, sound anomalous to me, as if the judge (who, as stated, also ruled on a Betty Boop case) doesn't understand the nature of a copyright hearing.  It may be that I'm reading it out of context, or that what I'm reading as ignorance is merely asserting boundaries for the lawyers, but it makes me wonder if either (a) the document isn't what it appears or (b) the judge was potentially compromised.

I'll withhold any further comments until more people have read the post.

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2010, 02:28:34 PM »
Hi John,
The subject of who Ken got this from has been brought up on the Yahoo Timely-Atlas group.

Quote
If you go to any decent law library and ask the librarian, they should be
able to tell you how to get a copy of the paperwork. Or at least point you
in the right direction.   It might cost you, take some effort and take a
while, but much of the basic info is in publicly available databases.  For
the actual transcripts, that will probably not be online though.   But
looking at the scans he provided, the pages are from a law book, which
means you just have to find the right volume from the right court.

Also interesting on the subject -
The original case was appealed, Apr 29, 1940:
http://www.studentweb.law.ttu.edu/cochran/Cases%20&%20Readings/Copyright-UNT/detcomics.htm
 
 & a follow-up case:
Detective Comics, Inc. v. Fox Publications, Inc.et al, (District Court, S.D. New York, Aug 14, 1942)

-Frank Motler

Perhaps your questions on the Judge's conduct might have been covered in the subsequent appeals?

I can see this shaking up Eisner's image for some fans but as we've already learned with his long assertion that he held the rights on The Spirit when is doesn't look that way on closer inspection - this might just be another case of a story teller wanting to be the hero of his own life story even if the facts don't present his actions as so black and white.  I think we all see ourselves as basically good people but none of us can say we haven't bent the truth once or twice in our lives.  It doesn't make us a villain, it only makes us human.

BTW Roy Thomas is already planning to cover the transcripts in a future issue of AlterEgo.

-Yoc

Offline John C

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2010, 04:00:00 PM »
I didn't mean to imply that Ken had something inauthentic, just that something feels "off" for a trial.  But, then, I've never been involved in a trial, so this could be (or could have been) routine.  And, as I mentioned, it could just be that I'm misreading it.

To be clear, in case someone else runs in that direction:  Ken has no (and shouldn't have any) obligation, considering that the records are public and verifiable, to reveal who acquired the pages for him.  Hopefully it'll be revealed what volume to check, for future researchers, but if his source wants to be anonymous, we have an actual, serious law protecting that source.

As for the Eisner issue...well, I was going to hold my tongue until other people passed this way first, but since you bring it up, I've never really idolized the man (like many later comic creators, I've always been annoyed at his fixation with being "taken seriously"), and so often wondered why his word was always taken as gospel over everybody else's in the industry.  I remember a few places in "Men of Tomorrow," where Jones essentially says, "everybody has said otherwise, but Eisner contradicts them in an interview, so that's that."  Heck, it's taken almost seventy years, well after his death, for someone to even check his story!

That's not to say that he would be a liar, but memory plays tricks, especially during traumatic events, and there may be multiple parts to the story (indeed, there's an appeal) where the man's "lie" could still turn out to just be "simplification."

And if not, well, Eisner is the proverbial Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.  "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2010, 10:54:04 AM »
I understand Part 2 of this series will be up later today!

BTW, this transcript of the first trial is taken from the later APPEAL documents.

Offline darkmark (RIP)

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2010, 01:32:41 PM »
This is one helluva shakeup.  I have a feeling that, by the time he did THE DREAMER, Bill probably believed the heroic version of his story and drew it up as such.

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2010, 12:17:46 PM »
That wouldn't surprise me at all DM.

Part 4 is now up - DC VS VICTOR FOX: The Testimony of Jerry Siegel
which has even more interesting things to show!
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-jerry.html

Anyone here know if Victor Fox was ever the owner of Colonial News Inc., his one time distributer per 1942?

-Yoc

Offline archiver_USA

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2010, 03:12:22 PM »
That wouldn't surprise me at all DM.

Part 4 is now up - DC VS VICTOR FOX: The Testimony of Jerry Siegel
which has even more interesting things to show!
http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2010/07/dc-vs-victor-fox-testimony-of-jerry.html

Anyone here know if Victor Fox was ever the owner of Colonial News Inc., his one time distributer per 1942?

-Yoc

Found this while searching for Colonial News

As for Colonial News Co. ownership, all I can find is this mention: "Colonial News Co. (RTN) (Harris Freedland) 190 W. End" in The Trow (formerly Wilson's) copartnership and corporation directory of New York for 1909 (found via Google Books). And in Jon Berk's article on Victor Fox he states "This was due, probably, in no small part to the fact its distributor, Colonial News, Inc. went under, owing Fox Publishing $173,551" which makes it sound like Fox was owed money by Colonial News, however neither piece of information confirms or denies Fox being a part/whole owner of Colonial at any point in time.

As an aside, does anyone know if there are "copartnership and corporation directory" books for the 1930-1950s? These might be useful tomes in identifying who applied for some of those one-off publishers we have trouble identifying.

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2010, 03:28:55 PM »
Thanks for looking into it AU.
Being in Canada, I wouldn't know where to start looking for something like you were asking.

I'm betting JohnC might have an idea.  Or Ed Love aka Cash Goreman.

-Yoc

Offline John C

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2010, 04:01:03 PM »
Offhand, no.  I'm also not entirely sure how likely it'd be, beyond a trip to someplace like the New York Public Library.

Unlike the Federal government, state governments can (and New York definitely does) reserve copyright on its works.  Since incorporation is a state filing, stupid as it sounds, Albany technically owns those listings, limiting the chances someone would make them available.

I'll poke around, though, and see if I can find anything out.

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2010, 04:28:27 PM »
BIP Comics has a few interesting sections including 'Publisher Insignia and Indicia Data'
at the following link - http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/logos/index.cfm

They also have 'Comic Book Distributors and Cover Artifacts' which includes distributors marks-
http://www.bipcomics.com/showcase/artifacts/codes.cfm

Colonial is listed but there's no details.
-Yoc

Offline Yoc

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Part 4 is now up - the testimony of M.C. Gaines and Sheldon Mayer
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2010, 04:29:30 PM »
The testimony of M.C. Gaines and Sheldon Mayer from the trial transcript of DC vs Bruns:

http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com

Gaines testimony gives one of the earliest accounts of the acquisition and publication of ACTION COMICS #1. As always, fascinating stuff!

-Ken Q.

Offline Yoc

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DC VS Victor Fox: Harry Donenfeld and Victor Fox Testimony
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2010, 10:34:19 AM »
Ken has posted the final testimony from the Detective Comics, Inc. vs Bruns
transcript:

http://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com

Up now is Harry Donenfeld, with a brief rebuttal from Victor Fox.

This has been an amazing read that I highly recommend anyone that is a fan of the Goldenage.
It's a wonderful glimpse behind the curtain at the personalities involved and the origin of Superman at DC.

Ken Q deserves full credit for presenting the case in a very original manner.  No doubt the argument over the ramifications of the testimony will go on for a long time.

Thanks Ken!
 :D

Offline Bob Hughes

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 04:37:06 PM »
Now all we need is to get somebody to post the judge's decision.  Based on his demeanor throughout the testimony it  must be a real corker.

Offline Yoc

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Re: DC VS Victor Fox: The Testimony of Will Eisner and others - link
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 05:22:45 PM »
His actual written decision would be nice yeah.
We know he found in favour of DC and Fox did appeal it at least once as this transcript comes from the first appeal.

Later DC would go after him for 'Lynx' being a Batman knock-off.
-Yoc